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Adeptus Ineptus

System redo. What to keep/lose?

124 posts in this topic

Let's get this all in one place for them.

I say keep hit point free wounds and acton points.

+1

 

And the new fatigue system.

+1

Reduced skills

Fate triggered special abilities

yggZ likes this

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Let's get this all in one place for them.

I say keep hit point free wounds and acton points.

+1

 

And the new fatigue system.

+1

Reduced skills

Fate triggered special abilities

 

 

Yes ! Reduced skills also !

 

Also keep the RoF in general; its combined with AP much better than the old auto-semiauto system.

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I've sent an email asking about what is being taken out and what they'd like to see further feedback on. Ill post the reply when I get it.

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I'd love to see both kept, but if the intent is full backwards compatibility, they're likely to get axed. 

I've posted this before but if you need a hit point free wound system

 

If damage is more than armor + TB add 1 fatigue (if fatigue is grater than 1/2 TB role on chart.)
If damage is more than armor + (2 times TB) role on crit chart and add 1 fatigue.
If damage is more than armor + (3 times TB) limb hit is out of use till treated and add 1 fatigue.
If damage is more than armor + (4 times TB) limb hit is gone and add 2 fatigue.
 
Limb in this context includes head and body. Treat arms, legs and head as having 1/2 TB. Spending a fate point can drop damage down one level. If DH2 isn't using the name Sound Contrition each level of that be used to drop damage down one level aswell.
I haven't fixed it up so feel free to rip it apart to make it work.

I also would like something like a free magic system for psychic powers.

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Drop the talent trees.

 

Keep the AP system, find a better way to handle wounds.

Remove the fate point abilities, they're mostly really boring 'automatically succeeed' type things anyway.

yggZ likes this

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Yes, Talent trees can be sacrificed for Tiers - that doesnt hurt much.

But the AP system was a real tactical innovation. To go back to the clumsy half and full action system is just a step back again.

What is a "half" action anyway ?

Edited by GauntZero
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Guys, there is literally no way of keeping AP and doing backwards compatibility. It isn't happening. Honestly the AP system as written was a terrible mess of badly clashing mechanics and I am glad to see the back of it. ROF linked with AP in the way it was was horribly broken something that the Eviscerator proved quite nicely. In addition the damage system was problematic at best when considering larger enemies which the beta had avoided. Some of the ideas were ok but execution was so bad that it required a complete rewrite of the whole combat system in order to make it work well, something that FFG obviously realised.

Edited by Kaihlik

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No previous system was fully backwards compatible. If everyone in the community wants AP, why shouldn't they give us AP. Heck, we all knew it was going to be AP based when we bought it, and we bought it anyway. Opinions differ on how useful it is, but the fact that we all bought the book knowing that is enough to tell me that it's well enough liked to be just scrapped. Adding to that, it's not hard to convert any existing system to having AP, considering all characters get 4 ap.

 

Saying that I personally can take it or leave it, so it won't make my list. That's not to say I don't think it should be kept, just that I'd be happy enough without it.

 

 

So my stuff to keep:

 - Hit points free system (although the one we have needs refining down to something that fits on a GM screen)

 - Reduced Skills

 - Plenty of "GM Decides" rules

 - Challenge rating of NPCs

 

Throw out:

 - Talent trees

 - Most of the armory (keep ap based rate of fire)

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Oh also, redo the forbidden lore stuff. It's obscene that Flores cost the same for all characters(since you need the specialization) and also that it scales off of willpower and gives corruption points when you fail.

 

Keep AP, but just like in the other w40k roleplaying systems, include a section about converting between lines, and here include rules for how to switch between AP and full/half actions.

 

Oh and add back some of the removed skills and talents. I want my binary chatter and search skills.

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Same as a lot of people, keeping the AP and wound system would be great.

 

I liked the way lores were handled with the specialist talent covering a range of uses. 

 

They've already said so, but I'm glad they're keeping the character creation stuff, as that was really flexible.

Soloman likes this

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I just don't see what made FFG go back to the compatibility thing. I think there was plenty of support for the AP system to keep it. I don't there there was much outcry to abandon it.

yggZ likes this

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I just hope that along with the re-write to the combat and armoury systems they re-jig the vehicle section to match with Only War. It would be nice to have the two systems match up.

Full Disclosure: Yes, I am bias in this regard as I wrote the OW vehicle rules.

BYE

Vaeron and Elior like this

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Keep the Beta character creation system- preferably modified to include some of the 'A' or 'B' options from DH1's character creation system.

 

Keep Influence- I do not want to go back to hoarding coins like this is D&D.

Edited by Adeptus-B

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Things I would like to see in the systems re-do:

 

Keep the Beta character creation with the following changes: 1) add Imperial World to Homeworlds, 2) move Highborn to Backgrounds, 3) add a "Citizen" background to cover folks who aren't Adeptus and aren't Outcasts... basically someone who rose out of the rank and file of humanity.

 

Ditch the Beta combat, wounds and armory system, though I would be willing to keep the AP system if they simplified it to 2 action points per turn. What is presently a "Half Action" costs 1 AP, a "Full Action" costs 2 AP. I think that could work and would be clearer than the Half Action, Full Action nomenclature.

 

Keep the Influence, Subtly and Social Interaction rules.

 

I think that would be a good direction to go in.

khimaera and Snowman0147 like this

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Keep:

 

AP system: I like it way better, it adds tactical flexibility and player choice, a simple convert back box will do for making it compatible, and a rework of fractional AP rates of attack as special qualities would eliminate the two real objections to it.

 

No hit points: I had already converted to a house rule away from HP before the beta and love the direction they were headed, with some streamlining to make it faster to use it should be workable. Whatever my objections, I prefer it vastly to HP systems.

 

Reduced skills: the number they arrived at here seemed about right, I never felt like any of them was useless and I absolutely loved the freely matching skills with different characteristics for different sorts of tasks. 

 

No currency: Counting thrones was silly, distracting, and felt wrong. I much prefer Influence although it could use refining.

 

Fewer fixed, stackable bonuses: The previous edition was all about stacking up crazy amounts of gear and circumstantial modifiers to do anything, having higher characteristics and skills and less abusive penalties has felt way better and more balanced. 

 

No unnatural characteristics: They were clumsy, getting rid of them was the right choice. Have a box explain how to turn them into flat increases and move on. 

 

Varied scaling: Having different weapons and attacks scale with different characteristics added interesting flavors and choices and assured more variety, it will need to be better tuned, but the potential is great. 

 

Challenge ratings: They were useful and take up little space, the calculator can go though, it was neither easy to use nor especially helpful. 

 

Character Generation: Add a "Motivations" step and tweak it as needed, but I definitely liked it and the flexibility it offered. 

GauntZero, Simsum, dholda and 2 others like this

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I'm a big fan of this turn about, but that said, I would like to keep a few of the things.

Keep
-I like the Chargen very much. Brings me back to those RT days when you had a big complex web of choices to make. And I love that.
-Fire being horribly deadly. Honestly they made it a bit TOO extreme, but I love the scaling, rather then a fixed D10
-I like the way fatigue works right now, but with AP probably going away, it would be pretty easy to convert it to like "When you have fatigue equal to your CB, then you suffer -10 for each point over"

-Malignancies and Insanities are pretty cool, but they should be changed a little bit. Its a bit unfair that a character hitting 10 CP for the first time can suddenly sprout an extra arm. An affliction that will almost certainly mean the end of his career instantly, unless his friends and boss are Ultra Radical. The malignancies from the old games were great. Problems and struggles you had to keep from everyone or risk exposure. New Malignancies should be rebranded back to Mutations, which take place after Malignancies.


 


Go Back

-Get rid of AP. Its a cool idea, but it just mangles so many things, and the two action system works great, and there are lots of talents and abilities to squeeze more out of your time.
-drastically scale down how much you can increase a state. Humans should only ever be able to achieve 70-80 in ONE stat, something they have dedicated their lives to being the absolute best at. Having 90+ in several is stupid. 

 

-In that vein, make characters less competent at the start. Only -10 to all skills at the start? Yeah right. Why even bother buying some skills, when just jacking up your stats gives you a better return.

-Conditions. Good lord, I don't need to be Stunned, Dazed, Weakened (3), WP Decay (5) and S Decay (7) all at the same time. This was the bad part about the wound tables.

-Psychic Powers. Wow are the current ones ever garbage. And don't ever bother pushing. Probably just kill yourself and the whole party. 

On the Fence

-The wounds system. I really liked the cinematic flair it added, but I think OW and BC did it better almost, with their version of Righteous Fury. In this system you get dragged through a steadily decreasing shitstorm of conditions, with some new book keeping thing slapped on with every single hit. I love bookkeeping, but not like this. 
With the old Righteous Fury, combat just flew along with wounds, and occasionally, when those 10's were rolled you'd excitedly get to hear how your perfect shot blasted the targets nose off, and threw him to his feet.
New Righteous fury (on a master) is just like "Oh. Cool. Well, Enjoy finishing off the boss with my shot"


 



And I know it'll never happen, but I liked Dark Heresy's plethora of skills. 
Having to buy every weapon talent and lore, I love it!
Maybe I like book keeping too much, but it felt great just stacking a character sheet, and watching your character really become a unique person as they grew. 
Simple skills. Pfft. Whatever.
I did enjoy how Only War is making a return to huge piles of unique talents though, after BC did away with them. More talents is always good! Too many talents is better!

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If the AP system and wound charts remain, I will not buy or play the resulting system.

 

I'd really like them to fiddle with the psychic rules. Pushing wasn't too good in the 2e rules, but the general concept of "wagering" your psy rating between the power of the effect and the easiness of achieving it was brilliant, and I'd very much like to see it translated to the old system's scaling.

 

Streamlined skills were okay. Nothing revolutionary, but a good change overall. Again, I wouldn't mind.

player320064 likes this

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1. Please keep it that Evasion is effectively an opposed test, not a success test. One of my greatest issues with the DH/RT/DW/BC/OW system is that the players possess the power to actually tell the GM "No, you don't hit me, because I succeeded on my dodge check." This is disruptive to my narrative powers as the GM, and is in violation of the spirit of rule 0. It should not be so obvious that I am cheating.

 

2. Please use the style of wording currently present in the "Delay" action. That is, please make it that a character can only come off delay between the turns of characters, not as a means of interrupting. This prevents any hijinks with regards to reactions.

 

3. Please make the use of reactions (as those are most likely to return) clear. The previous systems were muddled by the phrasing that reactions cannot be used during one's own turn. Please make it clear when a character generates reactions.

 

4. Please make it distinctly clear when a character is in melee, and when they are not, as well as clarifying the limits on when a non-pistol weapon can be fired at melee ranges. I.e. please make it so that running up to a target doesn't lock said target in melee - an attack should need to be made first.

 

5. Maintain the distinct steps of turn order. Even if the system is changing, please just clearly write out how each step is handled. When do certain conditions fire off their effects, when do things that last for a number of turns count down, when are reactions gained, when exactly do characters act, etc.

 

6. Keep the cover system, or rather, the specifics provided in DH2.0b (the amount of regions of the body usually covered).

Edited by KommissarK

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