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thitan

overlord so weak and errata beat up in a dead body

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the overlord is so weak. in a few matches is easy to see that. the heroes have advantage of this in their heroes feat, rest action, and revives hero actions.

the errata is decreased further the power of the cards of bloodlust, Reinforce and unholy ritual. this was necessary??and had gave more advantages for the heroes in many quests???

this debuff in cards was necessary???

 

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as an OL that is playing with no erratas right now, there might be good reason for them. There is a combo with bloodlust, blood rage, unholy ritual and reinforce that is VERY effective. Even I, the OL, feel like it might need some kind of errata, but I don't feel they all need to be cut like that. Some of the quests are overly errata-ed in favor of the heroes, I agree. Sometimes it's needed.

 

And I DON'T think the OL is underpowered. It just takes a person willing to play the role. The OL loses ALOT. So the person playing the OL needs a tough skin. The OL can seem underwhelming, but then suddenly be unstoppable. You have to wait for it and plan for it. After playing with the OL's big guns, I look forward to playing with the "less" powerful things to see if I can step up to the challenge. The OL is far more powerful then people like to give him credit for when paired with someone willing to give him the time to plan.

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I'm with Thitan.  Seems that the only things that ever get fixed lower the OLs power, while all the Heroes advantages continue unchecked.  OL had an advantage in Castle Daerion?  Can't have that, can we...

 

I'm going to wait for the next set of erratas and faqs before I play again.

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OL have a lot of rules not sense...

why heroes can attack 2 time and monster no?, why heroes can revive each time, and OL have 1 monster with reinforcement?

Why nerf card of OL when this card can be used 1 time, and instead a talent like Necromancer's "Fury of Death" can be used in easy mode with only 2 fatique?... Why  heroes can used always relique, and OL 1 for lieutenant (and for most of the matches we have 1 lieutenant and some only in the second encounter)

 

 

A lot of question - a lot of not sense... and FFG don't listen...

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Hopefully OL weakness will be fixed with Trollfens expansion that introduces new OL class - infector, and lieutenants pacs that allow summon lieutenants to any quest.

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the overlord need spend much xp to buy one the level 3 card. and the effect of they don't are very powerfull like the heros powers with this ERRATA.

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Hopefully OL weakness will be fixed with Trollfens expansion that introduces new OL class - infector, and lieutenants pacs that allow summon lieutenants to any quest.

3 expansions after the overlord get a buff, this is like the conversion kit that the monster are very good. you never will use the things on the core game again, because they are very weak.

I am using a little rule that put a little vantage for the overlord.

the overlord can 1 time in his turn discard one overlord card form your hand to draw another ovelord card from the top of the deck.

Edited by thitan

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OL have a lot of rules not sense...

why heroes can attack 2 time and monster no?

 

Play with a house rule that says monsters can attack twice per turn and find out.  I've heard of several groups who missed that rule and allowed monsters to attack twice, the result is so far unanimously that the OL becomes unstoppable.

 

why heroes can revive each time, and OL have 1 monster with reinforcement?

 

Again, play with house rules to allow greater reinforcements and see how it works out for you.  Maybe you'll discover there's a good reason they wrote it the way they did.

 

 

Why nerf card of OL when this card can be used 1 time, and instead a talent like Necromancer's "Fury of Death" can be used in easy mode with only 2 fatique?

 

Fury of Undeath requires an action AND to exhaust the card, in addition to the 1 fatigue cost.  This means it can only be used once per turn and it soaks one of the hero's two actions in the process.

 

As for nerfing OL cards, I mostly prefer to play cards as written unless there's an obvious problem.  If you don't like the errata, don't use them.

 

 

In order to be successful, the Overlord must be ruthless.  He must play to win at every opportunity and he must not be afraid of making cheesy moves.  It can be hard sometimes, being one against many heroes.  The inclination is to put up a fight, but not so much that it starts to annoy the other players.  If you want to win, you have to shake that.

 

It also helps to learn how to play the players.  If the warrior loves to chase goblins and kill them, have your goblins run off to odd corners of the map to draw the hero out of position.  Things like that.  If the hero players have habits in this game, try to find ways to exploit those habits to slow them down.

 

Another thing that would probably help is to rotate who plays the OL.  If you don't like it, it gives you some relief and lets you win as a hero sometimes.  More importantly, it gives everyone a better perspective on the game.  Maybe one of your friends will do something as OL that will make you realize the potential you've been missing.

 

Descent has a bad reputation of appearing unbalanced one way or the other to new player groups.  I've heard plenty of people saying the OL is too weak, but I've heard just as many saying he's OP.  The only thing I can say to that is, having played 1E for many years and 2E since release, I find the win ratio to be relatively even.  It takes more than a few plays, though, to get into the swing.

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Do you OLs take time to play before your games?

 

Have you OLs tried switching out roles to see if you are better suited for a hero role and someone else better for the OL?

 

Have you OLs tried to looking for plot ideas on this and other forms to become better?

 

As Steve-o just said, You have to be ruthless, without reserve and take advantage at every moment. The OL roll is VERY doable. You have to have the mind to do it though and you have to be willing to take losses, allot, to win the over all game. I have said before and I will say again, My play with NO fools for heroes. They have won 6 games and I have won 3. We have a rumor and the final left and I honestly think we, heroes and OL, are pretty even. I have a combo going that is killer and they have awesome things. I am over powered as the OL and they are over powered as heroes. It works. The final is going to be insane. BUT I have to endear SIX losses and only three wins. I got a little salty sometimes, but we kept playing and now my set up is worth it. No relics, but all awesome OL cards. 

 

Something that helps tension in our group is doing things that are silly. Bread, one of my heroes, reads the flavor. He often makes silly voices. He also makes voices for some of my monsters. It's great! (particularly the kobolds and goblins). You are evil. Laugh evily, loom over your cards and grin uncomfortably at the player about to move while fiddling with your cards.

 

Physiology works great. Talk with your heroes. Encourage them to do stupid things. Encourage them to move into spaces you have traps in, EVEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE CARD! ^.~ it works great. I do so when I have the card too, so my heroes never know when I have something up my sleeve.

 

Don't despair, OLs. That's the hero's job.

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Up to now, I have seen no convincing proof that the game is globally unbalanced, either in favour of the OL or in favour of the heroes.

 

The game is conditioned by so many factors that I do believe that it is quite impossible to analyse its balance globally and - a fortiori - to find quests that are perfectly balanced.

 

So, I do think that, in fine :

 

Balance is a myth and the debates about it are marked by a lot of futility

 

General statements about it are thus of the domain of beliefs, founded on partial and anecdotical experiences.

 

In the case of Descent, it seems to be a quasi-obsessional topic, that takes a place that I don't remember I  ever have seen with other games (e.g. RuneAge, Arkham Horror, SmallWorld, Starcraft, Talisman, Advanced Squad Leader, which are among the games I that I play and with which forums I interact).

I am still interested about the deep reasons of the phenomenon. I now have nearly made my mind that the (recurrent) debates about Descent being unbalanced are more about players venting their frustrations than about reaching to serious conclusions.

Edited by Robin

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the balance

 

heroes                               overlord

2 atack per turn =     large group monsters(each of monster can do the same damage of one hero red+blue)

stand up            =      reinforcement

stamina              =     overlord cards(that give action like the fatigue)

itens                  =       overlord only get buff in act II

heroic feat         =       ---overlord don't have nothing-----

 

the problem is the heroic feat that each hero have and the overlord don't have nothing to balance. the heroic feat of each hero, it can be used one time per encounter this give many disvantage in quest. because the heroic feat is much strong. and each hero can use 2 times per quest 1 in encouter 1 and another in 2.

Edited by thitan

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each adventure has its own setting and each side has its own objective. This isn't a dungeon crawling game based on fight. You may not Discuss balance based on combat talents.

 

Example : My last game on friday with the Twin Idols --- a one shot adventure with the highest XP setting (legend ? I don't remember the correct name) where I tried to focus as OL on sabotage cards... Very effective on encounter 1, but encounter 2 was outdoor although 4 of my 15 cards were activated when looting or opening a door... You don't have to loot outside a campaign, and there's no door in outdoor setting. I was weaker than I thought. Moreover the one shot setting allow players to choose their stuff among items ... so as to match and do excellent combo with their talents... deadly :)

 

 

PS : by the way Act 2 monsters are strong.

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the balance

 

heroes                               overlord

2 atack per turn =     large group monsters(each of monster can do the same damage of one hero red+blue)

stand up            =      reinforcement

stamina              =     overlord cards(that give action like the fatigue)

itens                  =       overlord only get buff in act II

heroic feat         =       ---overlord don't have nothing-----

 

the problem is the heroic feat that each hero have and the overlord don't have nothing to balance. the heroic feat of each hero, it can be used one time per encounter this give many disvantage in quest. because the heroic feat is much strong. and each hero can use 2 times per quest 1 in encouter 1 and another in 2.

 

"

 

heroes                               overlord

2 attack per turn =     large group monsters (= little monster are useless)

stand up             =     reinforcement (a lot of quest you have 1 reinforce < 4 heroes)

stamina              =     overlord cards (fatique have regen with attack, talent or action, overlord card no have regen)

items                   =     overlord only get buff in act II (minion monster no have buff, become more useless

 

 

And with expansion and new quest, heroes have other relique, more gold and other xp... more quest you do and  more powerfull become heroes...

 

I think for balancing, must allow the monsters to equip them too ...

Edited by Shooock

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Why nerf card of OL when this card can be used 1 time, and instead a talent like Necromancer's "Fury of Death" can be used in easy mode with only 2 fatique?

 

Make sure you're playing with the Familiar rules correctly. Almost every time I've seen people complain about Fury of Undeath being overpowered, they are either treating the Reanimate like a full hero and allowing 2 attacks or playing the card wrong. Familiars only get 1 move action + whatever their card says (In the case of the Reanimate, it adds 1 attack). So the Reanimate only has 1 Move Action, 1 Attack Action and that's it. No Opening doors, searching, double moving, double attacking, etc. It also requires both an action and to be exhausted (so it can't be used twice).

 

Tactically, keeping the Necromancer at high fatigue levels can help. You can also target the Reanimate with any card that would target a hero, and since it automatically fails any attribute tests, it can be taken out pretty quickly with the various conditions. Additionally, don't forget that Dark Charm is a guaranteed success against the reanimate, who can often be the strongest damage dealer early on.

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stamina              =     overlord cards (fatique have regen with attack, talent or action, overlord card no have regen)

 

 you draw one overlord card 1 time automatically in the begin of your turn

Edited by thitan

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next time that would play i will try

 

rules for balancing descent

1) once per turn on your turn the ovelord can discard a card to draw another overlord card.
2) the maximum of cards in overlord hand is 6. he can don't activate a group of monsters for get a overlord card.
3) the overlord starts every encounter with markers equal to the number of heroes
       it may
       -spend a marker to make an action that extra attack with a monster. (he can't do this with the same monster on the same turn)
       -spend a marker to draw a overlord card from the top of the deck.

Edited by thitan

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In the case of Descent, it seems to be a quasi-obsessional topic, that takes a place that I don't remember I  ever have seen with other games (e.g. RuneAge, Arkham Horror, SmallWorld, Starcraft, Talisman, Advanced Squad Leader, which are among the games I that I play and with which forums I interact).

I am still interested about the deep reasons of the phenomenon. I now have nearly made my mind that the (recurrent) debates about Descent being unbalanced are more about players venting their frustrations than about reaching to serious conclusions.

 

Could the fact that, in comparison to RuneAge, Arkham Horror, SmallWorld, Starcraft, Talisman and Advanced Squad Leader, this conversation takes place so often and so many people come to vent frustration not indicate there may indeed be some global problem?

 

And anecdotial experiences are completely related to determining if a game is balanced or not.  It's examinig what's occuring when the game is played.  Seems several players are having less than optimal experiences.

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Why nerf card of OL when this card can be used 1 time, and instead a talent like Necromancer's "Fury of Death" can be used in easy mode with only 2 fatique?

 

Make sure you're playing with the Familiar rules correctly. Almost every time I've seen people complain about Fury of Undeath being overpowered, they are either treating the Reanimate like a full hero and allowing 2 attacks or playing the card wrong. Familiars only get 1 move action + whatever their card says (In the case of the Reanimate, it adds 1 attack). So the Reanimate only has 1 Move Action, 1 Attack Action and that's it. No Opening doors, searching, double moving, double attacking, etc. It also requires both an action and to be exhausted (so it can't be used twice).

 

Tactically, keeping the Necromancer at high fatigue levels can help. You can also target the Reanimate with any card that would target a hero, and since it automatically fails any attribute tests, it can be taken out pretty quickly with the various conditions. Additionally, don't forget that Dark Charm is a guaranteed success against the reanimate, who can often be the strongest damage dealer early on.

 

 

Sorry i confused with Army of Death... a skill without exauste and in combo with Vampiric Blood can be trigger 2 time for round..

 

and after familiar can do other action... omg this must not be faqed?

Edited by Shooock

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The way Kunzite plays the Overlord role in our group is so different from what you other OLs are experiencing! We played Tipping the Scales in our last playthrough, and she locked down the game. Locked. Down. The. Game. The heroes were caught in a perpetual stand-and-be-defeated loop, because thanks to some potent OL cards and a total of Nine monsters with Pierce 2 and 3. We didn't even manage to get a weight onto either scale. We walked in, ran up to the monsters that started at one of our goals, killed some, got mobbed by the reinforcements and died. Endless Night, here we come.

You whinge and gripe that heroes get to attack twice per turn, when you can have monsters in excess of twice or three times their number, who all get to attack? Come on, you're all smart people. Hell, there are even monsters in the Conversion Kit (which I insist you spend the money on, because it has incredibly good monsters) that can attack twice; They're hardly pushovers, and unlike heroes, Monsters reinforce with full HP instead of rolling two red dice, which only give heroes back 2-6 HP, and MAYBE a fatigue or two if they're lucky. It's incredibly easy -- especially in Act II -- to deal 2-6 damage and knock them down repeatedly, drawing a card per KO plus the one you get at the start of your turn. A dead hero is incredibly hard to recover from, because the heroes have to stop what they're doing to spend precious actions standing their fallen comrades up and/or healing them or getting them up to a state where they won't die from the monsters that killed them the first time.

If I had to claim balance issues, the Warlord OL makes all the other OL classes look like chumps, because it generally ignores hero involvement (very few, if any attribute tests) and generates card advantage better than any of the other classes. Because you draw a card each time you drop a hero, why wouldn't you pick the set that helps you drop heroes with relative ease instead of pissing around with search tokens and movement traps? With it you can sacrifice a monster to attack twice. Who cares? It'll just respawn with full HP. Did you kill the hero? Great. Bloodlust and draw more cards. Toss out your Master monster you just Blood Raged with and use the almighty Reinforce card so he shows up with all his minions as well; you effectively ignore the reinforcement rules. Did the heroes manage to significantly wound a monster you need to keep alive? A universal card says you can roll two red dice and heal them. Cards like these are on-par with heroic feats, feats that you can do more than once per encounter if you're keeping up on the card draw.

You're also overlooking vital parts of being the overlord: Listening and the Element of Surprise. The heroes have to plot and plan their strategies right in front of you; They have to think and plan out loud to each other, while you can simply listen to their plan and play cards or monsters to foil them. The heroes do not know anything about your deck, what monsters you're using and what strategy you're employing until you allow them to know. You know all of their skills, their equipment and all their stats from the get-go, while they don't get to know jack squat until you reveal it.

Kunzite has only won three of the quests we've played out of the entire campaign, but each of those victories was a vicious curb-stomping where we barely got a chance to participate in the encounter at all; Every time we (the heroes) won, it was almost always by barely scraping by; a lucky dice roll on an attribute test or a hail-mary, this-determines-if-we-win-or-lose attack. She knows, like you OLs should know, that the long game is what is important. The winner of the campaign is not who wins the most, but who's left standing in the end. If you lose, learn why; Did you pick the wrong monsters? Not draw the right cards? Roll badly? Take stock of what your heroes did and how you can circumvent them. Remember that winning leads to overconfidence, which can really bite you (or your heroes) in the butt if you're not careful.

Come on, OLs. You know you've got the tools to win. The errata on cards like Bloodlust and Unholy Ritual were put in place to make it less braindead easy to use both of those cards to hold your entire OL deck in your hand. By holding your entire deck in your hand, it means you hold a response to your heroes' every action. If they do anything, you can prevent them from doing so, or at least make them pay dearly for doing so. Once you play a card, heroes have to abide by its effects, whether they can handle it or not: A blood-raging monster, a full Reinforce, Unholy Ritual or a Reflective Ward MUST be dealt with in the same vein you must deal with their heroic feats; They just happen and you must deal. Heroes don't always have an answer to everything you do, so those card nerfs are a balance to ensure that you don't always have an answer for what they do either.

Does anything I've said make sense, or am I just a dottering old man again?

Kunzite, Robin13 and Cursain like this

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nothing survive 4 hero atacking 2 times. and the other using hero feat to cure all.

 

I sat down on Monday and started a campaign, by myself, using Silhouette/TH and Steelhorns/Knight, Avric/DS and Widow Tarha/RuneMage to get familiar with the Shadow Rune campaign that's starting for my gaming group on the 21st.  I played through Firstblood, Masquerade Ball, and Fat goblin.

 

So far as OL I'm 1W 2L.

 

I have all expansions + CK and am using secret rooms, and wyrm quests.

 

Honestly, with some of the CK monsters + a couple blood frenzys + Basic 2 deck, it's easy to drop heroes when and where I want.

 

I haven't cheated on one roll.

 

I lost Firstblood, and Fatgoblin.  Fat Goblin was lost barely.  Now that I own the bones from Masquerade Ball watch out heroes.

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nothing survive 4 hero atacking 2 times. and the other using hero feat to cure all.

 

I sat down on Monday and started a campaign, by myself, using Silhouette/TH and Steelhorns/Knight, Avric/DS and Widow Tarha/RuneMage to get familiar with the Shadow Rune campaign that's starting for my gaming group on the 21st.  I played through Firstblood, Masquerade Ball, and Fat goblin.

 

So far as OL I'm 1W 2L.

 

I have all expansions + CK and am using secret rooms, and wyrm quests.

 

Honestly, with some of the CK monsters + a couple blood frenzys + Basic 2 deck, it's easy to drop heroes when and where I want.

 

I haven't cheated on one roll.

 

I lost Firstblood, and Fatgoblin.  Fat Goblin was lost barely.  Now that I own the bones from Masquerade Ball watch out heroes.

 

 

How's the money situation going?

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