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Force power tree : Foresee

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I love what they did with the initiative roll within Foresee, but the rest is maybe a little lackluster.

My main reference is D6 WEG Star Wars RPG.
In this game, we could see much farther into the future, not just 3 days in the future with both Duration upgrades. Also, we could also use the force to see far away, out of sight, or see into the past with the power "Postcognition".

 

I know it is quite hard to predict the future has a GM in a RPG, so I could live with the 3 days window into the future with the current force power. But I'd really like the idea of touching an object and seeing its past (touching a keyboard to find out the passcode) or projecting our mind over great distances to see someplace else (are the 6 guys in the next room stormtroopers trying to ambush us or just the cleaning crew?).

What do you guys think ??

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I was working on a homebrew Farseeing power prior to getting my copy of the Beta.  The base power I had was 'quick snapshot of current events,' with separate Control Upgrades to see into the past and into the future, with Strength Upgrades to see specific details and Duration Upgrades to see additional days into the past/future.

 

That said, it does seem that FFG is sticking pretty close to the movies in a lot of instances, and the Force is no exception.  We really don't see a lot of "Force gazing into the past" in the films or really in the EU, as most writers are concerned with "future sight" than trying to view the past.  Only instance that comes to mind is Luke using the Force for short-term memory enhancement in Dark Force Rising (2nd book of the Thrawn Trilogy), something he mentions that Yoda taught him during his training on Dagobah.

 

From a purely game perspective, seeing into the near-past isn't all that useful, since most players either have really good memories about past occurrences in the campaign or have taken plenty of notes to refer back to later.

 

Doesn't mean I wouldn't mind seeing Foresee broadened a bit, perhaps to allow the user to look into the past or the future with the basic power, thus covering both the future-sight and 'memory enhancement' techniques.

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I'm not thinking of memory enhancement techniques... but really seeing into the past...

 

Here are two more exemples :

- Taping into the rift that scared the force when someone is murdered to see what happened and know who is the killer.

- Feel the imprint of the force left by someone that walked into the room a few minutes ago to know who is the mysterious visitor.

 

It is more akin to an investigation technique, where looking into the past let's you know what to look for in the present. As a GM, it is a good way to move the plot along its course.

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Well, as far as just seeing past events, that does bring with it the various plot-killing problems that such post-cognitive abilities have shown up in.  I know that Mutants & Masterminds went into some pretty through details about how having a character with such abilities could derail those plots with alarming ease.

 

After all, it's hard to have much of a murder mystery when one of your PCs can just roll a die and see exactly what happened at the scene of the crime.  Particularly as PCs in general tend to be rather big on "vigilante justice" as opposed to due process and actual evidence of the culprit's guilt.  Even the Sense power, which with a single Control Upgrade can allow you to read a person's mind, gets a sidebar on how game-breaking this power looks on paper but lists ways to mitigate that fact.  Given that in most EotE and AoR games the PCs are going to fugitives from the law in some degree or another, following proper legal procedures to have a murderer arrested, tried and convicted isn't going to really be an option.  Even Sherlock Holmes with his rather prodigious deductive abilities had to abide by proper legal procedures such as actual evidence.  Legend of the Five Rings even makes it a point to say that testimony gathered via magical means is inadmissible, as the kami (elemental spirits) can easily be twisted to give false testimony by a shugenja (plus the fact that some of them can be darn near inscrutable in relaying information to a mortal).

 

From what we've seen so far, FFG seems to be taking pains to avoid the "Force-users rule the roost" syndrome that plagued both the d20 and D6 versions of Star Wars, at least in the rulebooks where Force-users aren't the main focus.  Jury's still out as to whether that will hold true once Force & Destiny gets released.

 

Not saying that being able to see into the past is a bad idea (as noted, I was including in my draft for a Farsight power), but with a name like "Foresee" as opposed to "Farseeing" or "Farsight" doesn't suggest that FFG was thinking of allowing PCs the ability to see the past, particularly the only film mention such a thing gets is by Yoda in ESB when instructing Luke in the technique, mentioning seeing "distant places, friends long gone."

 

That's not to say that FFG couldn't rename the power it to make it a bit less focused on "seeing things before they happen."

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From what we've seen so far, FFG seems to be taking pains to avoid the "Force-users rule the roost" syndrome that plagued both the d20 and D6 versions of Star Wars, at least in the rulebooks where Force-users aren't the main focus.  Jury's still out as to whether that will hold true once Force & Destiny gets released.

 

I completely agree with you that force users were all too powerfull in those games. I'm really glad they made Jedi at the same power level has any other character, the only difference is where you spend your experience points. A jedi might be really good at lifting stones, but that bounty hunter is really good at shooting your face :P

 

It is one thing that I really like about FFG EotE and AoR, each career has it's own special flavor and each character can really be unique and also have it's own special powers.

 

The Doctor and the Mechanic have the exact same dice pool for both Medecine checks and repair checks, but the Doctor always cures 3 wounds more then the Mechanic, and the Mechanic always repairs 3 more Hull Trauma then the Doctor.

I love it :)

 

 

Well, as far as just seeing past events, that does bring with it the various plot-killing problems that such post-cognitive abilities have shown up in.  I know that Mutants & Masterminds went into some pretty through details about how having a character with such abilities could derail those plots with alarming ease.

 

I know what you mean... but I dont think it's that big a deal... YOU'RE the GM.

With both strenght upgrades, you can pick up 2 specific details from such visions. But the GM always decide in the end what the player will see in his vision. Like in the Clone Wars episode where Ahsoka has a vision of Padme getting murdered by Aurra Sing, when Ahsoka tries to see who hired Aurra Sing, she sees the color purple and hears a laugh. So you can give hints to your player without spoiling the plot.

Also, you can always say "The Dark Side Coulds Everthing" :P

So a jedi uses this power on a murder victim and you say "The dark side coulds everything, but you can see a red lightsaber blade bearing down on the victim". So now they know he was killed with a lightsaber... they would have also found out with a medecine check :P

What I really mean is that if the GM knows that one of the player has that kind of power, it's easy to find hints to give to the players or find alternate ways to use his post-cognitive vision has a plot hook instead of a plot spoiling.

 

Did you see the movie MINORITY REPORT with Tom Cruise ???

You can always use a vision in such an obscure way that the player doesn't know who is really the killer and what really happened.

 

Thanks for the insight.

Kudos

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Did you see the movie MINORITY REPORT with Tom Cruise ???

You can always use a vision in such an obscure way that the player doesn't know who is really the killer and what really happened.

Tried not to, as I don't find Tom Cruise to really be that engaging of an actor.

 

Back on topic, as for the "dark side clouds everything," that can be a double-edged sword, particularly if you restrict it information that anyone could find with an skill check that they don't even need to have ranks in.  While I do like that FFG has (so far) curtailed the power of Force-users in their system, they should get a little something extra given how many points they have to sink into such powers (base 30 to get a F/S spec and just the basic Foresee power, plus more XP to get precise details or see past a certain time frame).

 

A player of a Force-user that had to drop 50+ XP to get that ability might well get rather pissed that another PC could learn the same information with a straight Intellect roll, and would be right to view that XP as wasted if any of the other party members can get the same thing on a regular skill check.  Maybe not the players in your group, but FFG does have to consider the wide variety of players in groups all over the world and their rather different play styles.

 

While the power itself is written to only provide at most two solid details of a vision, it can be tricky for a GM to determine what's valid but not too revealing about the story vs. what's valid but ultimately useless.  It might be my own bias as someone that generally enjoys playing Force-users, particularly Jedi, but if I've spent a bunch of character resources on an ability and it rarely contributes anything useful to the group's success in the adventure, I'm going to feel a bit short-changed.

 

Whether Andy and his team update Foresee to be able to view the past or not, I think a sidebar in the final rulebook about types on striking that proper balance between "useful to the player but not so useful as to spoil the plot."

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A player of a Force-user that had to drop 50+ XP to get that ability might well get rather pissed that another PC could learn the same information with a straight Intellect roll, and would be right to view that XP as wasted if any of the other party members can get the same thing on a regular skill check.  Maybe not the players in your group, but FFG does have to consider the wide variety of players in groups all over the world and their rather different play styles.

 

I understand your point... unfortunately, the GM doesn't control what the players do.

If you want your players to rescue a Rebel operative that was capture and is being held in at the BSI downtown office, you have to "plan ahead" the many alternatives your players might think... they might try to sneak in trought the roof, or pick the lock of the back door, or try to pass as imperial officers doing a prisoner transfer, or just bash trought the front door.... even if you don't plan each possibilities perfectly, you have to be prepared a little for each of them....

In the case of an investigation scene, you have to plan every possibilities... so imagine one of your players has the Farsee jedi power and he could learn how the murder took place (what weapon and time)... but that day, that player is a little tired and forgets to use his power.... you need contingencies to give your players the precious info.... so I know a simple skill check might be underwhelming and might piss off the jedi player, but you do need to advance the plot.

I also enjoy playing a jedi character... mine is on hold until FaD comes out so that I can make a real jedi character... but when I think about it, I realise that to get the same results, the other player must spend a lot of XP in so many skills... here are a few exemples...

- Will there be an ambush when we enter the bar who is owned by a Hutt (to whom we own money) ?? Underworld Check.

- What is the passcode to open this door ?? Computers Check.

- What happened in that room a few minutes ago ?? Perception Check.

- When will the imperial troopers arrive after we trigger the alarm ?? Warfare (the new knowledge skill in AoR) Check.

All these can be done with Farsee... so I don't really mind if another player can find the info with another skill since I can use that power instead of so many skills....And it can also be a game saver if the player uses that power to ask the GM if their plan will fail (usually for neophyte players).

Anyway... i'm aiming for that proper balance too, between "useful to the players but not so useful as to spoil the plot".

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I wanted to add something to this, and I don't think it's been mentioned yet. Can't the power's upgrade be tapped multiple times, allowing you to see further into the future? Also, as a GM, I might let a player use a destiny point to bend the power, seeing into the past (perhaps in hours instead of days, or what have you). Being flexible as a GM is very important to me, and allows my players to feel free to be a bit liberal in their approach, which I think is much better than the sessions I've experienced where so many people are hunting over their sheets for SOME kind of solution.

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1) I wanted to add something to this, and I don't think it's been mentioned yet. Can't the power's upgrade be tapped multiple times, allowing you to see further into the future?

 

2) Also, as a GM, I might let a player use a destiny point to bend the power, seeing into the past (perhaps in hours instead of days, or what have you).

1) I'm no expert on the force system in this game, but by "tapping" the various upgrades multiple times I assume that you mean... let's say I have all the duration upgrades for Foresee, which from what I understand is 3 days, and two upgrades. That might be wrong (haven't got my book yet), but let's just say it is. What you're asking is if you have these two you can activate them multiple times, which I guess would result in gaining more days from spending additional LSPs? So 1lsp to activate the base power, 1 lsp to activate the duration upgrades, and then, what you're saying (asking) is that you can spend another 1lsp to activate the duration upgrades a second time?

 

I'm not sure it's allowed, but I'm not sure it's disallowed either, by which I mean I don't think there's anything about that in the rules. If some of my players suggested something like that, I'd at the very least require the flipage of a Destiny point, plus X strain...

 

2) Yeah, that's a good solution. I like it.

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Foresee is a problem.  It's a ton of work for a GM.  He has to figure out how much to reveal without busting the plot or making the player's investment worthless.  That means GM's sitting there turning the mental gears.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I find watching people think pretty boring.

 

The more points a player spends the more Mr. GM's supposed to reveal.  Again without making the plot obvious or trivializing everyone else's contributions.  Yuck!

 

Foresee shouldn't be a power at all.  It should be a tool in the GM's arsenal to make stories.  When he wants to give a force user info he can and when he doesn't he doesn't.  Simple and no one get's pissed.

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While I don't think Foresee is as big a headache as Aservan suggests, I do think it could be toned down a bit.  Namely, remove the "can activate multiple times" from the Strength Upgrades, limiting the Force-user to two specific details.

 

As for what to reveal, just because it's a specific detail doesn't mean the GM has to supply the full context.  Perfect examples from the films are Luke's vision of his friends being tortured, and Anakin's dream-visions of the deaths of his mother and Padme.  They both had some specific details, but not the context of those details.

 

If the player also uses the Duration Upgrades to see several days into the future, that can give the GM even more wiggle room in terms of those "specific details," as the character may have no idea when those things might take place.

 

Personally, I've used Farseeing (as it existed in prior Star Wars games) as a way to foreshadow major plot elements, which is handy if the GM has a fairly good idea of where the story is going.  And if the PCs wind up going off in an entirely different direction?  There's Yoda's line about "hard to see, always in motion the future is."  Could very well be that by the PCs taking a certain course of action, they wound up changing the 'future' that the Force-user saw.  Or something occurred to change the context of the initial vision; the event still unfolds, but not in the way the PC might have initially expected.

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However they decide to write this power, I think it would go a long way for them to give several examples of the intended usage of the Force Power.  As written, it is very powerful, and possibly game breaking.  I can see a wide variety of objections to the force power, and while a GOOD GM could probably handle most uses, it has strong possibility to be abused. 

 

I would probably want more bang for my buck on the initiate side of the tree.  Sense gives you two upgrades against people to hit you!  And its one of the only ways to do this without suffering strain.  The way the Forsee mechanic currently works with the initiative and extra maneuvers, I kind of see the Forsee Power being used as the Jedi Battle Meditation in this sense.  So maybe flavoring some of the tree in this way would be pretty cool. 

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Foresee is a problem.  It's a ton of work for a GM.  He has to figure out how much to reveal without busting the plot or making the player's investment worthless.  That means GM's sitting there turning the mental gears.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I find watching people think pretty boring.

 

The more points a player spends the more Mr. GM's supposed to reveal.  Again without making the plot obvious or trivializing everyone else's contributions.  Yuck!

 

Foresee shouldn't be a power at all.  It should be a tool in the GM's arsenal to make stories.  When he wants to give a force user info he can and when he doesn't he doesn't.  Simple and no one get's pissed.

I second this.

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From what we've seen so far, FFG seems to be taking pains to avoid the "Force-users rule the roost" syndrome that plagued both the d20 and D6 versions of Star Wars, at least in the rulebooks where Force-users aren't the main focus.  Jury's still out as to whether that will hold true once Force & Destiny gets released.

 

I completely agree with you that force users were all too powerfull in those games. I'm really glad they made Jedi at the same power level has any other character, the only difference is where you spend your experience points. A jedi might be really good at lifting stones, but that bounty hunter is really good at shooting your face :P

 

We have not seen any Jedi, save for Dark Jedi as antagonists. We don't know what power level they will be.

What we have seen are not Jedi, but non-Jedi force sensitives. Amateurs who pick up a talent or two. And they CAN dominate a group by their powers. (One NPC I used was a Force Rating 2 - he was a clear nemesis level threat to the whole damned party - and the party had more total experience than he did. But it was after the end of the Playtest for Edge.) 200 XP of force powers is potent stuff.

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Forsee should have a focus upgrade to dodge... forseeing a few seconds into the immediate future should be worth a point of defense. 

From what I can tell, that's what Sense's control upgrade already represents (abstractly as hell).

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As for what to reveal, just because it's a specific detail doesn't mean the GM has to supply the full context.  Perfect examples from the films are Luke's vision of his friends being tortured, and Anakin's dream-visions of the deaths of his mother and Padme.  They both had some specific details, but not the context of those details.

 

If the player also uses the Duration Upgrades to see several days into the future, that can give the GM even more wiggle room in terms of those "specific details," as the character may have no idea when those things might take place.

 

Personally, I've used Farseeing (as it existed in prior Star Wars games) as a way to foreshadow major plot elements, which is handy if the GM has a fairly good idea of where the story is going.  And if the PCs wind up going off in an entirely different direction?  There's Yoda's line about "hard to see, always in motion the future is."  Could very well be that by the PCs taking a certain course of action, they wound up changing the 'future' that the Force-user saw.  Or something occurred to change the context of the initial vision; the event still unfolds, but not in the way the PC might have initially expected.

 

I don't disagree with you in principle, but you haven't explained to me as a player why I would want this.

 

As a GM it sounds great.  I got a sucker to pay points so I have a built-in adventure correction mechanism.  Now when the players get side-tracked, I've miscommunicated, or they are drinking too much I can just give the sucker a vision and bang adventure back on track.

 

Luke's vision was a way for Lucas to say, "Hey dummy you split the party. Go back and hang with your pals in Cloud City."  Anakin's visions were, "I'm in your head.  Killin' your mom."

 

That's a GM tool.  Not a player tool.  Why should a PC pay for it?

 

The initiative part of the power requires a massive expenditure of points.  Most PCs would be better served just getting more Vigilance or Cool.

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As for what to reveal, just because it's a specific detail doesn't mean the GM has to supply the full context.  Perfect examples from the films are Luke's vision of his friends being tortured, and Anakin's dream-visions of the deaths of his mother and Padme.  They both had some specific details, but not the context of those details.

 

If the player also uses the Duration Upgrades to see several days into the future, that can give the GM even more wiggle room in terms of those "specific details," as the character may have no idea when those things might take place.

 

Personally, I've used Farseeing (as it existed in prior Star Wars games) as a way to foreshadow major plot elements, which is handy if the GM has a fairly good idea of where the story is going.  And if the PCs wind up going off in an entirely different direction?  There's Yoda's line about "hard to see, always in motion the future is."  Could very well be that by the PCs taking a certain course of action, they wound up changing the 'future' that the Force-user saw.  Or something occurred to change the context of the initial vision; the event still unfolds, but not in the way the PC might have initially expected.

 

I don't disagree with you in principle, but you haven't explained to me as a player why I would want this.

 

As a GM it sounds great.  I got a sucker to pay points so I have a built-in adventure correction mechanism.  Now when the players get side-tracked, I've miscommunicated, or they are drinking too much I can just give the sucker a vision and bang adventure back on track.

 

Luke's vision was a way for Lucas to say, "Hey dummy you split the party. Go back and hang with your pals in Cloud City."  Anakin's visions were, "I'm in your head.  Killin' your mom."

 

That's a GM tool.  Not a player tool.  Why should a PC pay for it?

 

The initiative part of the power requires a massive expenditure of points.  Most PCs would be better served just getting more Vigilance or Cool.

 

From a gaming perspective, I can see your point. From a roleplaying perspective, I can really dig this power. I love the Jedi Seer archetype, and I am pleased that FFG is giving me the rules to play one.

 

My disappointment with this power is at most I can only glimpse a few days ahead. I wouldn't mind one more upgrade that would just make it an indefinite time point (with an associated discipline check). My GM would be welcome to hand wave it and not tell me anything, and that's fine with me. But for some reason a few days seems fairly narrow.

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From a gaming perspective, I can see your point. From a roleplaying perspective, I can really dig this power. I love the Jedi Seer archetype, and I am pleased that FFG is giving me the rules to play one.

My disappointment with this power is at most I can only glimpse a few days ahead. I wouldn't mind one more upgrade that would just make it an indefinite time point (with an associated discipline check). My GM would be welcome to hand wave it and not tell me anything, and that's fine with me. But for some reason a few days seems fairly narrow.

This power may be getting a boost in Force and Destiny, but it may be that the designers only intended it in AoR to be as limited as what Luke had.

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From a gaming perspective, I can see your point. From a roleplaying perspective, I can really dig this power. I love the Jedi Seer archetype, and I am pleased that FFG is giving me the rules to play one.

My disappointment with this power is at most I can only glimpse a few days ahead. I wouldn't mind one more upgrade that would just make it an indefinite time point (with an associated discipline check). My GM would be welcome to hand wave it and not tell me anything, and that's fine with me. But for some reason a few days seems fairly narrow.

This power may be getting a boost in Force and Destiny, but it may be that the designers only intended it in AoR to be as limited as what Luke had.

 

That's a fair guess.  I'll buy that for the moment.

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I don't disagree with you in principle, but you haven't explained to me as a player why I would want this.

 

That's a GM tool.  Not a player tool.  Why should a PC pay for it?

Because not every power or talent in the game has to have a purely mechanical benefit?  This isn't D&D or d20, and there are number of existing talents in EotE that are, form a purely mechanical standpoint, utter crap as the benefit provided is so minimal or tailored to such a specific niche that they'll rarely come up.

 

Don't think of Foresee purely in terms of "how can this benefit my character" but rather "how can this benefit the overall story that me, the GM and my fellow players are trying to tell?"  It's a narrative system after all, so it stands to reason that there will be talents and Force effects that lean heavily on the narrative side of things.

 

As kaosoe expressed, some people really dig on the seer archetype, and Foresee provides a way to do that, giving the GM a more definite way to feed potential plot hooks to the party.

 

But hey, if you really don't want to purchase the power for your PC... then don't.  There's nothing in the rules that says you have to purchase every single Force power in order to be considered a "proper" Force-user.  Being able to see the future with any degree of accuracy wasn't considered an incredibly common ability of the Jedi, or even Force-users in general  In most instances, they simply accepted the occasional "flash of insight" that the Force provided, and didn't try to actively cultivate visions.  Zayne Carrick of the KOTOR comic book series is a prime example of this, the point that he didn't trust visions that weren't spontaneous, which in game terms would be the GM saying "you have a sudden Force vision of something really bad about to happen in the near future" using nothing more than GM fiat.

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I think we might be arguing at cross purposes.  I'm not trying to argue that we shouldn't have the power at all.  I happen to think the seer character can be loads of fun.  That's why I'd like to see Foresee get some love before seers are forever mechanically shafted.

 

I think the Sense power is a good way to do Force powers.  It provides a clear benefit to a player and mostly in a narrative sense.  It also doesn't place a burden on the GM (and by extension the whole group).

 

If we want players to get more benefit and still keep it simple maybe an even more abstract solution is better.  Get rid of the weird and hard to understand duration and strength upgrades.  Let the GM decide more, but by extension charge the PC less. It'll provide for a better story. As others have stated why have the three day limit?  Jedi and Sith have been able to see much farther into the future.  More time would give the GM more wiggle room to give useful info to a PC without risking a plot breakdown.

 

I'm not sure designers should get credit for making crap powers.  I realize there is a demand for such things and it's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.  The whole concept of a point buy system is to make some attempt to keep players balanced in terms of ability.  If narrative where the only consideration we have an even more abstract system like in Smallville.

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"I've got a bad feeling about this" I can think of many ways foresee can be useful as a player 

 

1. Another pc is slicing his way through a security program on a door and you use the ability as he does or right before he makes the check. He's roll ends with success but disadvantages. You're aware of the guard on the other side who's been alerted by backup security programs or you stop the pc from opening the door because you realize it will trigger a bomb. Or maybe he fails the check and you realize from an earlier vision that part of what he's about to do is wrong possibly allowing a re-roll as you point it out.

 

2. You're waiting to do an ambush but foresee you're real target isn't going to be there and this is just bait for a trap so instead of ambushing the fake the party follows them allowing the plot to progress but not as badly as it could have for them.

 

3.You're defending a base and foresee what part is the main target/purpose of the attack and attempt to stop it maybe you can do so or maybe you fail but can get people out of the way of danger.

 

I'd say the usefulness of this ability is determined by your play-style or the personality of the character you play. If you as a player can't find this ability useful maybe it's just not for you or maybe your GM isn't ready to deal with this type of ability.

 

As for people who want to see into the past, the few times I've seen this happen in the novels it wasn't from the person trying. That aspect is a GM triggered affect that could happen to any force-user for story purposes; example: Corran Horn in I Jedi, who didn't even focus on such abilities(his abilities were sense, influence, and a rare absorption ability) and he still misinterpreted it until near the end.

 

I hope you find this useful. And to think I normally just watch these discussions and try to keep my views to myself but as of late I feel more obliged  to speak up -_-

Edited by Gearlocke

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