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AltWren

Just can't find a balance to this game

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Cursain - Doesn't work in the secret room, actually.  Those are challenge tokens, not search.  I was ready for that one.

 

 

That is why I make my players pick their heroes at random! I don't care if you think your hero is ugly! you are playing a one-handed Orc. 

 

But my starting equipment is two handed...

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Heh, if your playing with Secret Passages from the Wyrm expansion she's ultra powerful in the secret room.  She can pop her ability and search everything as "1" action, which would normally take four.

 

If FFG is taking away the OL's original errata of Blood Lust and Unholy Ritual, maybe FFG needs to tune some of these character abilities.

 

-Cursain

 

I love how all the erratas I hear are about how we can make the already hard task of the OL harder. I also understand that that with these cards, in particular combos, can be super powerful. Ask my heroes that tasted what it was like for me to have my entire deck in my hand at once. And I am playing a pretty dark and bloody deck (anything with "dark" or "blood" in it's name, I most likely have it). It gets pretty stupid pretty quickly. But this is late in the campaign. They have some pretty stupid good stuffs as well. I feel the playing field is even this way, even if I have won only three quests of six.

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Cursain - Doesn't work in the secret room, actually.  Those are challenge tokens, not search.  I was ready for that one.

 

 

That is why I make my players pick their heroes at random! I don't care if you think your hero is ugly! you are playing a one-handed Orc. 

 

But my starting equipment is two handed...

 

That sucks, but the rules state you can roll a single blue die to make an attack when unequipped, that will have to do until you have enough gold to buy a one handed item. 

 

But.. but...

 

TRAVEL PHASE HAS BEGUN!

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Also, if you feel this is too overpowered, it's a pretty simple house rule to change Immobilized to also include ALL movement, and one that PROBABLY wouldn't be too game-breaking. Just make sure you discuss it with the rest of the group beforehand.

 

I've been considering house rules to movement, in particular, of late.  Especially after reading about all this nonsense with Silhouette lately.  Broken or not, there's just a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense (mechanically or thematically.)  I haven't implemented anything in game yet, but this is a rough outline of what I'm thinking:

 

1) A Move Action is now an instant effect that grants MP equal to Speed, over as soon as it is declared, and the figure may then spend those MPs throughout his turn as he sees fit.  The rules for interrupting a Move Action are no longer required. 

 

2) Any other ability that allows a figure to "move" likewise grants an appropriate number of MPs which may then be spent to move.  Note that some abilities will require this movement to be performed "immediately" as part of the special action.  This means the MPs granted must be spent in the course of resolving this special action, and any leftover MPs are lost if not spent.  This most notably applies to abilities that allow a figure to move during another player's turn, but also to abilities that grant "movement with benefits" such as Silhouette's hero ability, for example.

 

3) Any effect that triggers "during a Move Action" is now considered to trigger when the figure "enters a space" via spending MP.  Doesn't matter where the MP came from.

 

4) Any effect that causes a Move Action to "immediately end" is now considered to drain the figure's unspent MP pool to zero.  The figure can acquire new MPs to continue moving, if possible.  Used in the middle of a "movement with benefits" ability, such as Silhouette's, this drains all MP; those granted by the special ability as well as any unspent MPs from fatigue, etc.

 

5) Immobilize prevents the expenditure of MP.  Figures can still gain MPs from various abilities if they want, but they can't spend them, and thus cannot move.  Immobilize still reduces the figure's MP pool to zero when played, per the FAQ.

 

Notes:

- My primary goal is to eliminate the confusion over what does or does not count as movement.  This is partly motivated by thematic concerns, but I also find it difficult mechanically to keep track of what effects are or are not Move Actions in the heat of play.  The more I play, the more I want any movement to count as movement.

- There have been a couple of official FFG answers that require us to keep track of where MP came from (fatigue vs Move Action), and I really don't like that.  Even in these house rules, some special abilities will need to have their own "sub-pool" that gets spent or lost within the course of one action, but I'm trying to minimize that sort of thing as much as possible.

- Under these house rules, the only abilities that don't count as movement are those which instruct the player to remove the figure from the map and then replace it somewhere else.  Those effects are generally teleportation and the like, so I'm cool with them not counting as movement.

- There will probably be repercussions in the area of large monster movement, which I haven't fully thought through yet.

 

Feedback is welcome.

I don't mean to hi-jack your thread, AltWren, but it sounds like the majority of the issues you're having trouble with center around movement, so I thought this might be relevant.

Robin13, Cursain and Kunzite like this

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No, by all means, hi-jack away.  I was just venting when I posted this thread anyways.

 

I like these rules, and I hope FFG moves in this direction.  It allows the OL to make an attempt at stopping the movement based feats, but also still provides the players a skill check to avoid the traps.  I also like that web actually stops people, cause it's just silly the other way.  Little logical errors like that one, or figures teleporting around the map to "nearest available spaces" bother me.

 

If I was to house rule something, it would be that "nearest available space".  If there isn't an available adjacent space, your ability is blocked.  So if Steelhorns wanted to push someone but there was no room for him to move adjacent, it simply wouldn't work.  Similar with Oath of Honor.  If two people are fighting a dragon in a two space wide hall and a third in back wants to Oath of Honor, they can no longer teleport through the dragon to the other side of the hall.  They need to go to a space adjacent to the hero they target.  No space, no ability.

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Griton - The moving quote refers to Steelhorns, who can move a figure out of his way when he moves into it.  However, if the figure is a large one, and there are other figures behind it, there may not be available space nearby.  The figure is then 'flung' as far as it needs to be to find a spot to stand in, no matter how much ground it ends up covering.

Ah! Yup, that is actually one instance where it's explicit about how it works. With that in mind, it's unclear whether I was wrong about my interpretation. Is Steelhorn's movement of other figures an exception to the movement rules, or does that apply to any time you move an enemy figure (it definitely doesn't apply to moving your own figure)

 

 

As for the Silhouette move heroic ending, I've read elsewhere that she does indeed continue her movement.  Perhaps she doesn't actually; I can't be sure.  Rules seem to swing back and forth, with no regard for balance or common sense, or in some cases even what is written in the rules.  As said, my group concluded this is about finding the newest exploit to the rules each day.

Yup, you are correct with regards to Silhouette; I even pointed that out in my post ;-). The problem was that you made the reference to it using the term "Move Action", which Silhouette's Heroic Feat is not. And I just wanted to make sure that you weren't taking Silhouette's Heroic Feat's immunity to Immobilization and applying it to ALL other Move Actions as well, which would make it almost completely useless for the OL. (Instead of just useless against a few special abilities.)

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Steve-O, I quite like those rules. I've been considering something similar myself but haven't fully codified it yet. (I'm also trying to consider a house-rule for the LoS issue of the black border between tiles blocking LOS between the adjacent ones, but not to ones that would otherwise be even more difficult to hit without resorting to center-to-center; e.g. Wall to left, black border in front, space in front is not in LoS, but space directly to the left of that space is in LoS)

Edited by griton

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I am just going to play devil's advocate against the house rule for web trap. My argument is this game is suppose to be like a clash of super heroes battling it out. There are times when people this special can bend the rules in their feats because they're special that way. Also I feel the OL should always be considerate on the chances of pulling feats versus the use of movement actions. What's your thoughts on this?

 

 

I will say though in regards to that treasure gathering chick I would definitely house rule her movement to be less based on the size of the map. I only have the 2e and LotW and the 2e maps tend to be quite small. Especially when compared to the LotW maps. She could potentially get not only the treasures but the keys in one turn on certain maps and just ruin it. Another suggestion is go down to one heroic feat per quest and make the heroes really consider when they pop them. 

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Steve-O, those rules are a godsend.  I'm thinking about printing this topic, getting the scissors out, and pasting your rules directly over the movement rules FFG has us using.

 

Excellent job!

 

-Cursain

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Steve-O, those rules are a godsend.  I'm thinking about printing this topic, getting the scissors out, and pasting your rules directly over the movement rules FFG has us using.

 

Thank you for the kind words, but don't get too exicted.  I'm still working through the corner cases for any problems.  (Feedback or ideas are welcome if anybody has anything.)

 

For example, the idea that a Move Action is an instant effect and each MP is spent separately might imply to some that a large monster has to shrink and expand with each space it moves.  Or at least that it can if it wants to.  In fact, with no clear "interruption" effect, I'd find it difficult not to read it that way.  I'm still working on the best way to solve that.

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Steve-O, those rules are a godsend.  I'm thinking about printing this topic, getting the scissors out, and pasting your rules directly over the movement rules FFG has us using.

 

Thank you for the kind words, but don't get too exicted.  I'm still working through the corner cases for any problems.  (Feedback or ideas are welcome if anybody has anything.)

 

For example, the idea that a Move Action is an instant effect and each MP is spent separately might imply to some that a large monster has to shrink and expand with each space it moves.  Or at least that it can if it wants to.  In fact, with no clear "interruption" effect, I'd find it difficult not to read it that way.  I'm still working on the best way to solve that.

 

 

My OL tried to do that.  **** Merroids were shooting all over the map.  We just yelled at him.  It solved the problem.

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I've been considering house rules to movement, in particular, of late.  Especially after reading about all this nonsense with Silhouette lately.  Broken or not, there's just a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense (mechanically or thematically.) 

Interesting.

If all had to be redone from scrap, I would have liked much more simple rules about movement and traps, etc.

The mix between movement actions, fatigue move, hero skills and feats does introduce a complexity that I don't quite like - and I fully understand the desire to create house rules that make things easier to apply.

In any case, it would be nice from FFG to produce a small "game aid", where key expressions are regrouped - with some explanations about mechanics interactions (such as Immobilze with a heroic feat not considered as a movement action, etc.).

The idea of a "pool" of movement points is, for an example, quite difficult (if not impossible) to discern when reading the rules without the FAQ and the "FFG Sez" references as a background.

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I believe that one of the FFG Sez responses has said that they are looking into a change for large monster movement where the monster isn't placed until it's done with all of its movement (so attacks, other actions, etc, would happen from the "shrunken" space instead of expanding first). That may be a decent house-rule.

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I believe that one of the FFG Sez responses has said that they are looking into a change for large monster movement where the monster isn't placed until it's done with all of its movement (so attacks, other actions, etc, would happen from the "shrunken" space instead of expanding first). That may be a decent house-rule.

 

That's a house rule of mine. At least the way we play is is that one side of the large beast's body is the starting point and we count from there. When the counting stops, or are interrupted, if able, that beast's head goes into that space and expands back from point of origin. The only time a monster could expand into a space further then that was if the beast could not fit into a space otherwise. This gives the OL something else to think about when plotting moves and keeps slow beasts slow and smaller, faster beasts, fast.

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That's a house rule of mine. At least the way we play is is that one side of the large beast's body is the starting point and we count from there. When the counting stops, or are interrupted, if able, that beast's head goes into that space and expands back from point of origin. The only time a monster could expand into a space further then that was if the beast could not fit into a space otherwise. This gives the OL something else to think about when plotting moves and keeps slow beasts slow and smaller, faster beasts, fast.

 

Be aware that the game was designed with monsters getting at least that extra move (large monsters all have very low speed values to accommodate for that). The above "house ruling" that FFG was considering isn't to reduce large monsters' movements for most of the time, but to help eliminate some of the confusion that happens when a monster can interrupt its movement (even if it's just after declaring the move action, but not having moved any spaces, which is currently legal), expand, perform an action, then re-shrink, finish moving, and re-expand gaining even MORE movement than before.

 

Example (as I understand things): A Hero is 3 spaces away from a dragon. OL wants the dragon to attack and move away.

 

Example w/ current rules: Dragon declares a move action, shrinks to a space 3 spaces from the hero, interrupts the move action by declaring an attack against the hero, expands in the other direction (essentially pivoting for no movement, doesn't count as entering a space next to the hero, so doesn't trigger certain hero abilities), so it is now adjacent to the hero, makes the attack, re-shrinks to its original position, moves away from the hero, and re-expands away from the hero, now placing it 6 spaces away from the hero.

 

Example w/ possible change: Dragon declares a move action, shrinks to a space 3 spaces from the hero, doesn't have the option to expand upon interrupting, moves 2 spaces to be adjacent (possibly triggering hero abilities), makes the attack, finishes moving one space back toward where it came, expands, and is now only 2 spaces away from the hero.

 

Another option is that you still allow/require expansion, but when you declare the action, it must be able to be performed from your current space (before expanding) instead of just being possible when you expand

Using our example: Dragon declares a move action, shrinks to a space 3 spaces away from the hero, moves 2 spaces to be adjacent (possibly triggering hero abilities), makes the attack, shrinks to the space farthest from the hero, finishes moving 1 space, expands away from the hero, and is now 4 spaces away from the hero. 

 

(These figures become slightly less extreme with 1x2 or 2x2 monsters)

 

Actually, re-reading my examples and the FAQ, it may be the last example that they use (forcing large monsters to be able to re-expand, but that they must be able to declare the action FROM THE SPACE THEY ENTERED before interrupting movement) And may be how I house-rule things if I do.

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Also note that if you house-rule large creatures to not get the bonus movement from expanding, that you should probably increase their movement rates by 1 to account for it. (This is technically a nerf only to 2x3 monsters)

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Actually, re-reading my examples and the FAQ, it may be the last example that they use (forcing large monsters to be able to re-expand, but that they must be able to declare the action FROM THE SPACE THEY ENTERED before interrupting movement) And may be how I house-rule things if I do.

 

You are right.

FAQ 1.2 (4/17/2013), p. 1:

Rulebook, page 16, “Large Monsters”: Add, “When interrupting a large monster’s movement to perform an action, the overlord must be able to declare the action that the large monster will perform before placing the monster’s figure on the map.”

 

Edited by Robin

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Griton:

 

I understand your thinking. I have gotten around just fine with my ruling so far. It's become strategy I have had to play with. ^.~ Something the OL has to think about, and I'm ok with that.

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You are right.

FAQ 1.2 (4/17/2013), p. 1:

Rulebook, page 16, “Large Monsters”: Add, “When interrupting a large monster’s movement to perform an action, the overlord must be able to declare the action that the large monster will perform before placing the monster’s figure on the map.”

 

 

Hrmm.... I guess I hadn't interpreted it that way and saw an FFG Sez response that was contradictory to that. Granted, the FFG Sez response may have been posted before that Errata, and I just read it later.

 

Does anyone remember where the "Dragon pivots for no movement, attacks hero, then runs the other way" question originated?

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Does anyone remember where the "Dragon pivots for no movement, attacks hero, then runs the other way" question originated?

 

Wow... no I haven't. That just sounds dirty... My heroes would be all up in arms!

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The FFE Sez answers ave less weight than officially published FAQ/errata.

I opened that thread, so the different answers to players' questions be regrouped (along the practice on the main ASL forum).

Edited by Robin

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The way a lot of the rules work bother me too.  Things that I've mentioned before, like Oath of Honor.  "I'm going to use Oath of Honor to move up to my teammate and help him, but there's no space near him so I teleport the length of a room to stand behind the monster."  "I got webbed and I'm covered in webs now but that's not going to affect me until I finish walking.  Then I won't be able to walk anymore."  "I'm going to move this enemy with my ability, but there are two more enemies behind him, so he gets flung 7 squares away from where he was."

 

Yes, I had a bad day, but it was only two rolls on the very first two turns of encounter one.  I missed those rolls and then I was punished for the next 20 turns.  The party could just take all the time they needed, because I couldn't reinforce the second map and my zombie couldn't hurt Koth for more than two damage, and the party had uncontested control of the altar.  That's not fun.  That's sitting around for hours doing nothing and knowing it's hopeless.  I'd have maybe one or two dragons around at times, but they don't matter.  They can't attack Koth.  They can't block a teleporting party.  If they do any damage, would, the party loses one action next turn.  The only thing that matters in that encounter is the zombies, and two misrolls ended that chance for me and I became a spectator.

 

And this isn't the first time we've had experiences like this either.  We had an OL defeated before he got a turn before.  We've had a party held to their starting weapons up until Act II.  We just can't seem to get a campaign that will flow and be fun for everyone, and we've played it a lot now.

 Wow.  Thanks a lot for your post.  First, because I have been wondering about getting the conversion kit even though I gave away my 1st edition stuff and substituting the miniatures.  Thanks to this thread I think that would be a mistake.  Also, because I have had the exact opposite experience that you have.  My roomate and I each started a quest line alternating roles as the heroes and overlord and he feels the game is perfectly balanced while I hold up the quest sheet to remind him that we have both been getting our butts handed to us as Heroes since the introduction.  I chalk it up to having picked a Ranger and a Priest (Hey I wanted to play the elves and sure I thought about the fighter but due to my inexperience did not quite se' habla the importantance of having at least one red die in your teams pool.)  but whatever the reason it hasn't kept me from having a LOT of fun trying to beat an only seemingly unbeatable foe.  Not to mention it has created a hilarious story about one elf who just wants to be left alone and an annoying priest who keeps bugging her about destiny this and helping the poor folk that and so she keeps giving her best and on some quests they come really close and on others they couldn't BUY a good defense or damage roll.  An' all this fun without looking up an single errata or faq.  The reason your post (like many on here) has been so helpful is because it proves (at least to me) that it really is my inexperience and that for everyone (like me) that would like to see the Heroes get a little love there are some that feel the overlord is the victim here.  One thing that may really help from what I have read here is doing what we did in Descent 1st edition (and will probably start doing here as well after this questline) is to randomly select your Heroes or even better do it Relic style which is radomly selecting two, then pick one, then repeat that process.  It just sounds like the combination of Heroic abilities you've described is what is making the issue and random selection would (especially since you have the conversion kit) greatly reduce the chances of always having to deal with those combos.  Anywho thanks for the post and I hope you don't give up on the game because (at least for me) win or lose it's always a kind of fun I just don't get from my other games.  Descent is......unique.  Anything can and usually will happen (especially if it gets between my elven odd couple and anything remotely resembling an artifact.) I think that's what I love about it actually.   

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Xodarap:

 

Just a side note, sir. ^.~ The OL has a HUGE advantage over a two hero game. There is little combo-ing going on that the OL has to deal with and just enough beasts to deal with it. Opposite is true for a three player game. But I Love your approach to the game.

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