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SprainOgre

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Not sure how else to explain it.  Can you buy EotE and play an Alliance character satisfactorily with what is provided?  Are there stats for all the iconic ships, independent, Alliance, and Imperial?  Are Jedi fleshed out where you could have a very fulfilling experience playing a Jedi in EotE?  Can you play an Imperial?  All that was possible with the WEG/D6 core rulebook, because it provided a full Star Wars experience.

 

That's what I mean by a generalized Core.  A core rulebook with everything you need to make most any type of character or campaign, with supplements that add bonus material should you choose.  D&D didn't have a Fighter Class Game, a Bard/Rogue Game, a Holy Game, and a Magic Game all rehashing the same core rules but adding classes/items for that particular class. 

 

 

Okay, now I get it.

 

And now I know that my comparison to the Warhammer 40K line is perfect. Dark Heresy doesn't have rules for ships, it doesn't have rules for Space Marines, or for playing chaos. It doesn't even let you play in the Imperial Guard. so this isn't a unique or new thing, for FFG in particular.

 

But even DnD does this. You want to play in the Underdark, you need the book that lets you do that, if you want to play the game period, you need no less than three books, each one over $30, and none of them complete to even start to play the game. If you want to play any race not in the Player's Handbook 1 (or you want to play a class that wasn't Arcane, Divine, or Martial; such as a Primal hero like the classic Barbarian), of which I think there was only 6 race options? maybe 8 (I gave my DnD stuff a friends so I don't have it on hand) available, you have to get Player's Handbook 2 or 3, or one the "Heroes of the..." books (Feywild, Underdark, Elemetal Chaos).

 

What I'm trying to show is that one core book and 50 supplements, vs. 3 core books and twelve supplements doesn't matter in the end. No game is complete by that standard. All games are growing and developing.

Edited by TCBC Freak

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Not sure how else to explain it.  Can you buy EotE and play an Alliance character satisfactorily with what is provided?  Are there stats for all the iconic ships, independent, Alliance, and Imperial?  Are Jedi fleshed out where you could have a very fulfilling experience playing a Jedi in EotE?  Can you play an Imperial?  All that was possible with the WEG/D6 core rulebook, because it provided a full Star Wars experience.

 

That's what I mean by a generalized Core.  A core rulebook with everything you need to make most any type of character or campaign, with supplements that add bonus material should you choose.  D&D didn't have a Fighter Class Game, a Bard/Rogue Game, a Holy Game, and a Magic Game all rehashing the same core rules but adding classes/items for that particular class. 

 

 

Okay, now I get it.

 

And now I know that my comparison to the Warhammer 40K line is perfect. Dark Heresy doesn't have rules for ships, it doesn't have rules for Space Marines, or for playing chaos. It doesn't even let you play in the Imperial Guard. so this isn't a unique or new thing, for FFG in particular.

 

But even DnD does this. You want to play in the Underdark, you need the book that lets you do that, if you want to play the game period, you need no less than three books, each one over $30, and none of them complete. If you want to play any race not in the player's handbook 1 (or class that wasn't Arcane, Divine, or Martial; such as a Primal hero like the classic Barbarian), of which I think there was only 6 options? maybe 8 (I gave my DnD stuff a friends so I don;t have it on hand) available, you have to get player's handbook 2 or 3, or one the Heroes of the... books (Feywild, underdark, elemetal chaos).

 

What I'm trying to show is that one core book and 50 supplements, vs. 3 core books and twelve supplements doesn't matter in the end. No game is complete by that standard. All games are growing and developing.

 

I see what you're saying, but the division is too large for me in this game.  Like I said, the WEG/D6 book let you play all the options that they're announcing in TWO more games right off the bat, and more.  You didn't really have to have supplements to play whatever, Smuggler, Bounty Hunter, Scout, Alliance, Imperial, Jedi, hell, moisture farmer if you wanted.  Having to buy a completely new game just to have a character in the Rebel Alliance just seems asinine to me.  I want a Star Wars RPG Core book, not an Outer Rim Scoundrel Specific Only Core book.  In their proposition you need $150 worth of books and three different games to have fewer options in the SW universe than one $30 book.

Edited by Shadin

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I see what you're saying, but the division is too large for me in this game.  Like I said, the WEG/D6 book let you play all the options that they're announcing in TWO more games right off the bat, and more.  You didn't really have to have supplements to play whatever, Smuggler, Bounty Hunter, Scout, Alliance, Imperial, Jedi, hell, moisture farmer if you wanted.  Having to buy a completely new game just to have a character in the Rebel Alliance just seems asinine to me.  I want a Star Wars RPG Core book, not an Outer Rim Scoundrel Specific Only Core book.

 

 

 

I can respect that then.

Edited by TCBC Freak

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In the WEG version of the game (and in many other RPGs), you could make practically anything you wanted with the material provided.  You had complete stats for Star Destroyers, Alliance cruisers/fighters, freighters, scouts, Jedi - it was a generalized core rulebook for the system and universe.  There were then tons of supplements that provided further material on particular subjects that were of interest to you, but none of them were reinventing the wheel and reprinting the base game just to give you access to that material.

 

IMHO what most people who complain about the multiple release non-single-core structure are missing is this:  it's really hard to get the Force right.

WEG didn't do it, never mind that they died just before the prequels which might have allowed them to restructure an otherwise decent system.

In D20/Saga their Force mechanics just blows chunks.  It's doomed by the levelling system and is so arbitrarily fine-grained you'd have to run a dozen characters up to level 20 just to replicate what a basic Jedi could do.

An online buddy and I even tried to use the NWoD mechanics for it...worked okay for a couple of years, but we kept running into power scaling issues and trying to deal with over-fragmentation or bundling too much under one power.

 

The Force is hard.  What I've seen so far looks "just right", but I'm glad they're taking their time with it because if they blow it it could doom the system.  Everybody who wants one core book is really saying they want to wait 2 more years.  But then the system won't have the benefit of those 2 years of real world play and feedback, and FFG loses out on revenue that keeps the game alive.

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I did miss that TCBC. But my concern still stands, in that the way to get into the play test, is by paying for the book. And since the book is a play test book, it will be replaced in just a few months. As such, the utility of the book is low.

 

I appreciate the skepticism of my motivation. However, my concern is the game community, and how publishers will treat them going forward. I'm genuinely concerned with this new economic model.

 

But, I suppose you can believe me or you won't. Nothing I can do to change that.

 

If you don't mind the hobby moving in that direction, I guess you'll say it with your money. I know what I'll be saying with mine.

Edited by SprainOgre

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I did miss that TCBC. But my concern still stands, in that the way to get into the play test, is by paying for the book. And since the book is a play test book, it will be replaced in just a few months. As such, the utility of the book is low.

 

I appreciate the skepticism of my motivation. However, my concern is the game community, and how publishers will treat them going forward. I'm genuinely concerned with this new economic model.

 

But, I suppose you can believe me or you won't. Nothing I can do to change that.

 

If you don't mind the hobby moving in that direction, I guess you'll say it with your money. I know what I'll be saying with mine.

 

You need to keep a few things in mind, though, before just resorting to cynicism:

 

1) FFG legally cannot just give out a PDF for the playtest because Lucas Licensing won't let them.

 

2) A production run for these beta books costs FFG a lot of money to make.

 

3) Tabletop roleplaying game is very much a niche hobby, as far as corporate profits go.

 

Honestly, that leaves two options, three if you count the bad, stupid one:

 

A) FFG charges for a playtest, gets good feedback, and people who want content early get it.

 

B) FFG doesn't do a playtest, and the final book isn't as good.

 

C) FFG does a playest, doesn't charge for it, and loses a ton of money on a license that already got cost them a lot of money to get.

Edited by Rikoshi

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I am one of those that isn't pleased that the SW universe was cut into three parts for three game lines. That said, I am greatly enjoying playing the game (EotE). I will be getting AoR too (and later F+D), but I'll be one of those people that will put them all on the table as the same game. So long as they stay 100% compatible I'm in - and so far it looks like they are doing that - but if it becomes a mess like the 40K lines, I'll drop it immediately.

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Not sure how else to explain it.  Can you buy EotE and play an Alliance character satisfactorily with what is provided?  Are there stats for all the iconic ships, independent, Alliance, and Imperial?  Are Jedi fleshed out where you could have a very fulfilling experience playing a Jedi in EotE?  Can you play an Imperial?

 

 

Um, actually - no you couldn't. Grabbing my old First Edition WEG rule book from 1988 off the shelf, I'm gonna have to call Bullshrimp on that line of reasoning. Lets go to the tape. . . .

 

Chapter one was all about character creation, Chapter two was the bare bones of the game engine and three was the "So What is Role Playing" chapter. That's it for the player section - 24 pages.

 

The GM section starts with How to GM, and details about attributes and skills. Chapter three is dedicated to how combat works, Four was healing and five was starships. Here we get our first stats: an X-Wing, a TIE fighter, the Falcon, a Stock Light Freighter and a Imperial Customs Frigate. Chapter six was the force Seven was building and running NPCs (still no stats).

 

Then the Adventure Section covered Running Adventures, Desinging Adventures, a canned game (finally! Stormtrooper stats. Oh, and a Y-Wing) and then the rest of the book was made up of adventure ideas and templates to build more characters.

 

So, can you play an Alliance character satisfactorily with what is provided? Well, if by that you mean build a character and call him "general"? Sure. Otherwise, no. Are there stats for all the iconic ships, independent, Alliance, and Imperial? Hell, we don't even get a Star Destroyer (Those stats came later). Are Jedi fleshed out where you could have a very fulfilling experience playing one? Well, you can do that. Can you play an Imperial?  Nope.

 

No color, no background material, no stats, nothing to work from - just a VERY core rules book and a lot of GM work.

 

Now mind you, I played the hell out of D6 for years. Decades. I love the system to death. But to say it was a complete play experience out of the gate is laughably wrong.

 

 

 

All that was possible with the WEG/D6 core rulebook, because it provided a full Star Wars experience.

 

 

I bet right now, using JUST the EotE book and Wookiepedia (and enough spare time), I could design enough of a campaign to play the Rebel Alliance and/or full Jedi. Hell, with 25 years of WEG and WotC Sourcebooks at my fingertips I could build a pretty kick-ass campaign. 1989 Me would have murdered for all the resources we have now.

 

You have *EVERYTHING* you need right now - the basic rules, and some creativity - to do a Fall of the Republic game, a Rebellion Black Ops game, High Political Intrigue in the Core Worlds, a Knights of the Old Republic game, a Legacy Era game - or just smugglers versus Hutts.

Edited by Desslok

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As much as us roleplayers have always been traditionally indignant to spending money, I keep seeing this hostility to 'money-grabs' of late that I feel highlights two distinct opinions/inclinations about the publisher:

1) The more items the publisher tries to sell, the more 'corporate' or 'bad' they're being and the less they're able to work on non-production-related work. This of course assumes RPGs aren't a niche market struggling to afford producing any of the content the designers/artists produce while waiting for a project to be green-lit in the first place. Jay Little is not being pulled away from developing Jedi careers to pack beta books into shipping crates.

I would much rather them load shelves of book stores and flippin' Target with rule books books and supplements and accessory cards and let the masses buy into the game than see it languishing at FLGS with one paperback core book with the same old content for five years.

2) The more items they release, the less it will make one willing to buy in the first place. Who cares how good the game is when they're making *optional supplements*, the nerve of them! Better put on the pirate hat and bitterly head to the printer with some water-marked PDFs, because I sure won't support a hobby that tries to be popular!

Well the bottom line is you never had to buy more roeplaying books than what you needed; sometimes you only want some dice and a spiral notebook and that can work (even in Edge of the Empire). Other times you want $60 books full of useful material. Being able to produce more products for us to *optionally* buy at our choice is a good thing and I don't feel cheated by them not cramming all the careers and ships of three books into one book.

Other people here can go into the details about valuable content in the core books and the bonus of getting the AoR rules 8 months early or adding input into a beta we have no entitlement to be part of in the first place, I think it all boils down to the assumption that people wouldn't just spend the same $180 on half a dozen 'core' rulebooks and ship/weapon/adversary/career supplements that were merely divided up in a more traditional format. Personally I think it's being divided up into requiring less books and thus is less of a money grab than it easily could be.

I agree with you.

Are these books sold at Target? Edited by Kager

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All that was possible with the WEG/D6 core rulebook, because it provided a full Star Wars experience.

 

 

I bet right now, using JUST the EotE book and Wookiepedia (and enough spare time), I could design enough of a campaign to play the Rebel Alliance and/or full Jedi. Hell, with 25 years of WEG and WotC Sourcebooks at my fingertips I could build a pretty kick-ass campaign. 1989 Me would have murdered for all the resources we have now.

 

You have *EVERYTHING* you need right now - the basic rules, and some creativity - to do a Fall of the Republic game, a Rebellion Black Ops game, High Political Intrigue in the Core Worlds, a Knights of the Old Republic game, a Legacy Era game - or just smugglers versus Hutts.

 

I agree completely, I have played or reffed just about every incarnation of the Star Wars roleplaying game that has come along, and they each had something to bring to the table. I was thinking about starting a game using the WEG system when Edge of the Empire was announced, and although I would by far prefer a game which was not based in quite a narrow part of the Star Wars universe, it has not taken me a great deal of effort to run an Old Republic game. I still want to get my hands on the AOR beta but that is mainly because I am building a Stargate conversion and AOR will I think be a slightly better fit with Duty and some of the careers available.

 

Having said that, no core book from any of the editions of Star Wars have truly provided an all encompassing experience, only through supplements have they expanded the content. And to be honest, if I wanted to run purely Rebellion based games I would rather just have to buy the AOR book than a core book and supplement.

 

The main thing is that, especially with the Beta, you don't have to buy it. In fact please don't, there are enough people who do want a copy (myself included) that we don't need the competition for the limited run. If you are not sufficiently interested in testing the game and possibly improving the final version in a like fashion to the Edge of the Empire beta, then either wait for the final version or stick to a game system you prefer.

 

It is entirely your call.

Edited by eldath

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Not sure how else to explain it.  Can you buy EotE and play an Alliance character satisfactorily with what is provided?  Are there stats for all the iconic ships, independent, Alliance, and Imperial?  Are Jedi fleshed out where you could have a very fulfilling experience playing a Jedi in EotE?  Can you play an Imperial?

 

 

Um, actually - no you couldn't. Grabbing my old First Edition WEG rule book from 1988 off the shelf, I'm gonna have to call Bullshrimp on that line of reasoning. Lets go to the tape. . . .

 

Chapter one was all about character creation, Chapter two was the bare bones of the game engine and three was the "So What is Role Playing" chapter. That's it for the player section - 24 pages.

 

The GM section starts with How to GM, and details about attributes and skills. Chapter three is dedicated to how combat works, Four was healing and five was starships. Here we get our first stats: an X-Wing, a TIE fighter, the Falcon, a Stock Light Freighter and a Imperial Customs Frigate. Chapter six was the force Seven was building and running NPCs (still no stats).

 

Then the Adventure Section covered Running Adventures, Desinging Adventures, a canned game (finally! Stormtrooper stats. Oh, and a Y-Wing) and then the rest of the book was made up of adventure ideas and templates to build more characters.

 

So, can you play an Alliance character satisfactorily with what is provided? Well, if by that you mean build a character and call him "general"? Sure. Otherwise, no. Are there stats for all the iconic ships, independent, Alliance, and Imperial? Hell, we don't even get a Star Destroyer (Those stats came later). Are Jedi fleshed out where you could have a very fulfilling experience playing one? Well, you can do that. Can you play an Imperial?  Nope.

 

No color, no background material, no stats, nothing to work from - just a VERY core rules book and a lot of GM work.

 

Now mind you, I played the hell out of D6 for years. Decades. I love the system to death. But to say it was a complete play experience out of the gate is laughably wrong.

 

 

 

All that was possible with the WEG/D6 core rulebook, because it provided a full Star Wars experience.

 

 

I bet right now, using JUST the EotE book and Wookiepedia (and enough spare time), I could design enough of a campaign to play the Rebel Alliance and/or full Jedi. Hell, with 25 years of WEG and WotC Sourcebooks at my fingertips I could build a pretty kick-ass campaign. 1989 Me would have murdered for all the resources we have now.

 

You have *EVERYTHING* you need right now - the basic rules, and some creativity - to do a Fall of the Republic game, a Rebellion Black Ops game, High Political Intrigue in the Core Worlds, a Knights of the Old Republic game, a Legacy Era game - or just smugglers versus Hutts.

 

I'm not going to go through and dispute each line, but try grabbing the Second Edition (or even Second Edition Revised) version, which is what everyone that plays still uses.  It has everything that you're saying the First Edition doesn't.  I never played first, so can't comment as to what is or is not in that book, but to call BS on me for this is like arguing with me that D&D 3.5 has THAC0 instead of AC because all you have available is an AD&D PG.

 

Just a cursory glance of the Second Edition book, I opened it to Starships.  Full stats here for X-Wing, Y-Wing, TIE/In, TIE Interceptor, Imperial Star Destroyer, Mon Calamari Star Cruiser, Corellian Corvette, Nebulon-B Frigate, YT-1300 Transport, Ghtroc Freighter, Lone-Scout A, with a template for making your own.

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I'm not going to go through and dispute each line, but try grabbing the Second Edition (or even Second Edition Revised) version, which is what everyone that plays still uses.  It has everything that you're saying the First Edition doesn't.

 

 

*BUZZZZ!*

 

Wrong. Sorry - no moving the goalposts. If you want to compare a system that had been out several years, had several editions under it's belt and an metric ass-ton of sourcebooks to a system that has one core rule book and a GM screen (and a canned game nobody can get their hands on anymore), that's not fair. Yes, of course WEG published everything you need for any sort of Star Wars game you could possibly want - eventually. But when their game was first starting out back in 1988, just like the FFG engine is now, you had NOTHING* to work from except five stats and some imagination.

 

*Nearly nothing. I don't recall when Tatooine Manhunt came out, if it was released with the main rule book or shortly thereafter. The point still stands tho, since one core book and a canned game is hardly a wealth of information.

Edited by Desslok

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I'm not going to go through and dispute each line, but try grabbing the Second Edition (or even Second Edition Revised) version, which is what everyone that plays still uses.  It has everything that you're saying the First Edition doesn't.

 

 

*BUZZZZ!*

 

Wrong. Sorry - no moving the goalposts. If you want to compare a system that had several editions and an ass-ton of sourcebooks to a system that has one core rule book and a GM screen (and a canned game nobody can get their hands on anymore), that's not fair. Yes, of course WEG published everything you need for any sort of Star Wars game you could want - eventually. But when the game was first starting out, just like the FFG engine is now, you had NOTHING* to work from except five stats and some imagination.

 

*Nearly nothing. I don't recall when Tatooine Manhunt came out, if it was released with the main rule book or shortly thereafter.

 

I'm comparing Core books, that's it.  Not sourcebooks or anything of the like.  Straight comparison between EotE Core and the planned other two games to a WEG/D6 Core.  I don't like the way FFG is breaking the game into multiple games based on character concepts compared to a single WEG/D6 core allowing for all character types.  Especially since we're not clear if the games will be able to be combined in a painless process. 

 

You're not really following what I'm saying and instead are just becoming defensive that I don't like this rendition of the Star Wars RPG.  I'm not even saying FFG are wrong, I'm just saying that I don't personally like it and won't buy it.  If you like it, then by all means, buy everything they release for it.

 

You're creating a debate where there isn't one.

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I'm comparing Core books, that's it.  Not sourcebooks or anything of the like.  Straight comparison between EotE Core and the planned other two games to a WEG/D6 Core

 

 

Fine. This is a first edition at the very start of the game's life cycle. If you want to compare it to WEG's revised and expanded rules (that came out 10 years on), you only get to compare it to FFG's 3rd edition rules, slated for release sometime in 2023, after they've had time to refine their product line a couple of times. Otherwise its not a fair comparison.

 

You are trying to compare Windows 3.1 to Windows 7 or a 1920's Model T to a 2010 Lexus, or a 13 inch blank and white Zenith from 1973 to a 53 inch high definition plasma screen. Of course a product that's had years of refinement is going to be more comprehensive than a just released product.

 

I don't like the way FFG is breaking the game into multiple games based on character concepts compared to a single WEG/D6 core allowing for all character types. .

 

 

Thus my point that you already have EVERYTHING you need : a solid game engine, some elbow grease and your creativity. Everything else is just color in the setting.

 

 

Especially since we're not clear if the games will be able to be combined in a painless process. 

 

 

Actually that's been quite clear. The Devs have said many times that all three will form a cohesive, seamless game engine. They've been saying that for a long time now.

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I'm comparing Core books, that's it.  Not sourcebooks or anything of the like.  Straight comparison between EotE Core and the planned other two games to a WEG/D6 Core

 

 

Fine. This is a first edition at the very start of the game's life cycle. If you want to compare it to WEG's revised and expanded rules (that came out 10 years on), you only get to compare it to FFG's 3rd edition rules, slated for release sometime in 2023, after they've had time to refine their product line a couple of times. Otherwise its not a fair comparison.

 

You are trying to compare Windows 3.1 to Windows 7 or a 1920's Model T to a 2010 Lexus, or a 13 inch blank and white Zenith from 1973 to a 53 inch high definition plasma screen. Of course a product that's had years of refinement is going to be more comprehensive than a just released product.

 

I don't like the way FFG is breaking the game into multiple games based on character concepts compared to a single WEG/D6 core allowing for all character types. .

 

 

Thus my point that you already have EVERYTHING you need : a solid game engine, some elbow grease and your creativity. Everything else is just color in the setting.

 

 

Especially since we're not clear if the games will be able to be combined in a painless process. 

 

 

Actually that's been quite clear. The Devs have said many times that all three will form a cohesive, seamless game engine. They've been saying that for a long time now.

 

It doesn't matter what edition of FFG's this is, because I don't like the fundamental way that they're choosing to execute the entire system.  This obviously bothers you, and I don't know why, but I'm loathe to discuss it further since you're obviously extremely invested in somehow needing to prove my personal opinion wrong instead of having an actual discussion.

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Not sure how else to explain it.  Can you buy EotE and play an Alliance character satisfactorily with what is provided?  Are there stats for all the iconic ships, independent, Alliance, and Imperial?  Are Jedi fleshed out where you could have a very fulfilling experience playing a Jedi in EotE?  Can you play an Imperial?

 

 

Um, actually - no you couldn't. Grabbing my old First Edition WEG rule book from 1988 off the shelf, I'm gonna have to call Bullshrimp on that line of reasoning. Lets go to the tape. . . .

 

Chapter one was all about character creation, Chapter two was the bare bones of the game engine and three was the "So What is Role Playing" chapter. That's it for the player section - 24 pages.

 

The GM section starts with How to GM, and details about attributes and skills. Chapter three is dedicated to how combat works, Four was healing and five was starships. Here we get our first stats: an X-Wing, a TIE fighter, the Falcon, a Stock Light Freighter and a Imperial Customs Frigate. Chapter six was the force Seven was building and running NPCs (still no stats).

 

Then the Adventure Section covered Running Adventures, Desinging Adventures, a canned game (finally! Stormtrooper stats. Oh, and a Y-Wing) and then the rest of the book was made up of adventure ideas and templates to build more characters.

 

So, can you play an Alliance character satisfactorily with what is provided? Well, if by that you mean build a character and call him "general"? Sure. Otherwise, no. Are there stats for all the iconic ships, independent, Alliance, and Imperial? Hell, we don't even get a Star Destroyer (Those stats came later). Are Jedi fleshed out where you could have a very fulfilling experience playing one? Well, you can do that. Can you play an Imperial?  Nope.

 

No color, no background material, no stats, nothing to work from - just a VERY core rules book and a lot of GM work.

 

Now mind you, I played the hell out of D6 for years. Decades. I love the system to death. But to say it was a complete play experience out of the gate is laughably wrong.

 

THANK YOU!  I am SO glad someone finally pointed this out!

 

As eldath mentioned it is only through supplements that details like that are fleshed out.  What FFG is doing, I think, is awesome because it is taking aspects of Star Wars and fleshing them out.  Because really these 3 books will cover a campaign set in any era.  Thanks to the very little differences in technology over the 5,000+ years of Star Wars material, all you really need to do is just re-skin the stats in the core books and you can have a Fringe campaign set during the Sith War, or a Jedi campaign (once F&D is released) set during the Legacy era.

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It doesn't matter what edition of FFG's this is

 

Yes it does. It matters very much.

 

You said that D6 was a comprehensive system. It was not - at least at launch. When it first started out, it was EXACTLY as comprehensive as FFG's book. If anything it's slightly less comprehensive than FFG's book - about a third of the EotE book is color and setting and description of the universe. WEG's book? Hardly any at all.

 

(This is putting aside that the entire universe back in the early WEG days consisted of content from six movies, 107 comics, seven novels and a holiday special)

 

You said "No, of course it was comprehensive!", completely omitting the factor that WEG had a whole decade of product backing it by the time R&E came out. Why does my Model T not have leather bucket seats, air bags or Sirius satellite radio? It's cold out, I want heat! I want seat belts! I want to not have to get out of the car and crank the engine to start it!

 

It "bothers me" not because you hate or love the system or that I care how you spend you money. I don't know you, I could give a rats ass  if you spent your paycheck on cocaine or gaming books (some might say the two are the same). I care because you're trying to argue from a inherently flawed position.

 

And for the record, I am not bothered by you or this argument in any way whatsoever. Believe me, when I get angry, there will be no doubt whatsoever to anyone here on that fact.

Edited by Desslok

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Not sure how else to explain it.  Can you buy EotE and play an Alliance character satisfactorily with what is provided?  Are there stats for all the iconic ships, independent, Alliance, and Imperial?  Are Jedi fleshed out where you could have a very fulfilling experience playing a Jedi in EotE?  Can you play an Imperial?

 

 

Um, actually - no you couldn't. Grabbing my old First Edition WEG rule book from 1988 off the shelf, I'm gonna have to call Bullshrimp on that line of reasoning. Lets go to the tape. . . .

 

Chapter one was all about character creation, Chapter two was the bare bones of the game engine and three was the "So What is Role Playing" chapter. That's it for the player section - 24 pages.

 

The GM section starts with How to GM, and details about attributes and skills. Chapter three is dedicated to how combat works, Four was healing and five was starships. Here we get our first stats: an X-Wing, a TIE fighter, the Falcon, a Stock Light Freighter and a Imperial Customs Frigate. Chapter six was the force Seven was building and running NPCs (still no stats).

 

Then the Adventure Section covered Running Adventures, Desinging Adventures, a canned game (finally! Stormtrooper stats. Oh, and a Y-Wing) and then the rest of the book was made up of adventure ideas and templates to build more characters.

 

So, can you play an Alliance character satisfactorily with what is provided? Well, if by that you mean build a character and call him "general"? Sure. Otherwise, no. Are there stats for all the iconic ships, independent, Alliance, and Imperial? Hell, we don't even get a Star Destroyer (Those stats came later). Are Jedi fleshed out where you could have a very fulfilling experience playing one? Well, you can do that. Can you play an Imperial?  Nope.

 

No color, no background material, no stats, nothing to work from - just a VERY core rules book and a lot of GM work.

 

Now mind you, I played the hell out of D6 for years. Decades. I love the system to death. But to say it was a complete play experience out of the gate is laughably wrong.

 

THANK YOU!  I am SO glad someone finally pointed this out!

 

As eldath mentioned it is only through supplements that details like that are fleshed out.  What FFG is doing, I think, is awesome because it is taking aspects of Star Wars and fleshing them out.  Because really these 3 books will cover a campaign set in any era.  Thanks to the very little differences in technology over the 5,000+ years of Star Wars material, all you really need to do is just re-skin the stats in the core books and you can have a Fringe campaign set during the Sith War, or a Jedi campaign (once F&D is released) set during the Legacy era.

 

 

Or you can paint the Edge of the Empire book red and have a totally new book!  Sorry I couldn't resist.

 

I'm all for Beta testing and getting the right product out there.  And in this Beta Testers opinion there is not enough new content in this book to warrant a whole new rulebook.  I'm all for having an Age of Rebellion book, but I rather they not reprint the core rule mechanics and instead put in mechanics for situations that deal with the setting as well as put in more Vehicles and Equipment.  Not to mention the fact that I can use GM advice on how to balance encounters which neither the EotE book nor the GM kit had.

 

Because really, what are we getting besides a repeat of the core rules?  New careers (some with repeated Specializations) , Rebellion Era ships and equipment (again with some repeats) and hopefully a lot of Rebellion Era history.   That says SPLAT book to me.   It's what every other game company does except this one is making us pay 60 dollars and making our game bags heavy with repeated material.

 

And really, I do not blame you guys for defending FF.  We all love Star Wars and want to see the game prosper.   I'm just very disappointed that what I thought was going to be an expansion to the rules is really just an overpriced SPLAT book and I honestly don't see why they are even having a Beta test.

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Why should someone who only has interest in the Rebellion aspect have to buy EotE and a splat book to play? Why can't they just buy one Core book like all the EotE fans? Seems a little unfair that you expect them to pay more for their game than someone just interested in an EotE game.

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Why should someone who only has interest in the Rebellion aspect have to buy EotE and a splat book to play? Why can't they just buy one Core book like all the EotE fans? Seems a little unfair that you expect them to pay more for their game than someone just interested in an EotE game.

 

I think the main concern is more of a conceptual one.  FFG decided to go this way, and once that decision was made you are correct in your question.  Their point is more that they would have preferred to have seen a FFG Star Wars the RPG with the basics, with an EotE splat book and a AoR splat book coming a bit later.  That way it would be easy and fair to run what ever game people want to play with a minimum of fuss.  After all, most of the fluff will be nearly identical between the various game lines (EotE, AoR, FaD).

 

I can see their point, but that decision was made by FFG.  It will not be changed at this late point.  It will cost me more money to buy it all, which I will do.  The up side is that I will have books with core rules that can be loaned to players during the game so everyone has a copy.  I originally purchased two copies of the EotE core rules, with one of my four players also buying a copy so far.

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Why should someone who only has interest in the Rebellion aspect have to buy EotE and a splat book to play? Why can't they just buy one Core book like all the EotE fans? Seems a little unfair that you expect them to pay more for their game than someone just interested in an EotE game.

 

I think the main concern is more of a conceptual one.  FFG decided to go this way, and once that decision was made you are correct in your question.  Their point is more that they would have preferred to have seen a FFG Star Wars the RPG with the basics, with an EotE splat book and a AoR splat book coming a bit later.  That way it would be easy and fair to run what ever game people want to play with a minimum of fuss.  After all, most of the fluff will be nearly identical between the various game lines (EotE, AoR, FaD).

 

I can see their point, but that decision was made by FFG.  It will not be changed at this late point.  It will cost me more money to buy it all, which I will do.  The up side is that I will have books with core rules that can be loaned to players during the game so everyone has a copy.  I originally purchased two copies of the EotE core rules, with one of my four players also buying a copy so far.

 

 

It's gonna cost us all more money.   Just because I am complaining that I feel the system is incomplete doesn't mean I won't buy the books.  I still need the stats of an X-Wing.  I still need to know how Jedi work.  Why?  Because I don't want to play Galactic Rebellion or Han Serenity, or Kung Force.   I want to play Star Wars which has all those things combined .

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It's gonna cost us all more money.   Just because I am complaining that I feel the system is incomplete doesn't mean I won't buy the books.  I still need the stats of an X-Wing.  I still need to know how Jedi work.  Why?  Because I don't want to play Galactic Rebellion or Han Serenity, or Kung Force.   I want to play Star Wars which has all those things combined .

 

 

Yes, yes it will.  

 

Thankfully, I have enough slush that I can afford to purchase games when I fall in love with them and let others borrow my rules.  Also more thankfully, my wife doesn't mind the expenditures when I make them.

 

I understand that not everyone has this same ability.  I agree that I would have preferred to have seen the system in the way you describe.  Complaining about it this late in the game just doesn't seem to really be effective.  Ce La Vie.

 

I just worry about duplicate splat books at this point.

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I've never seen one version that was complete with one book. That's not to say that people couldn't make do as I know full they can and have done so. WEG's version, while loose with character creation, lacked a lot of what many consider to be important facets for certain character concepts, especially Jedi. WotC's kitchen sink game had a lot crammed into the core book but left many feeling there was no flavor beyond the basics there, hence the reason for many of the supplements. FFG to a look at the history of the game and talked to their customers and fans and decided on this format. I'k not going to say which is better or worse. You can choose to like it or not. But at this point, FFG has settled on their process and are not going to change anything so long as the game meets their expectations.

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I just worry about duplicate splat books at this point.

 

 

Ideally, FFG would put out two books - one that skimps on the core mechanics but delivers all the rebelliony goodness, and then the Full Meal Deal with all the nuts and bolts of the engine. That way everyone can buy what they want, and everyone is happy.

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