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peterstepon

What will Vader's stats look like?....

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It only encourages ROLL playing over ROLE playing in a select few gamers, and those to those kinda of people perhaps roleplaying isn't for them. Maybe they should go back to their wargaming/board gaming and leave the roleplaying to the rest of us who actually get the point of RPG's  :D

 

And anyway, aren't we derailing the thread? The original poster wanted to know what Vaders stats would look like. If he'd wanted us to talk about whether it was right or wrong for him to have stats in the first place I'm sure the subject would have been quite different.

 

So just post some **** stats already!!  :lol:  :P

Now if only ROLLPLAYERS weren't the only ones I came across. :P

 

On-topic: We have two separate blocks on the first page.

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It only encourages ROLL playing over ROLE playing in a select few gamers, and those to those kinda of people perhaps roleplaying isn't for them. Maybe they should go back to their wargaming/board gaming and leave the roleplaying to the rest of us who actually get the point of RPG's  :D

 

And anyway, aren't we derailing the thread? The original poster wanted to know what Vaders stats would look like. If he'd wanted us to talk about whether it was right or wrong for him to have stats in the first place I'm sure the subject would have been quite different.

 

So just post some **** stats already!!  :lol:  :P

Now if only ROLLPLAYERS weren't the only ones I came across. :P

 

On-topic: We have two separate blocks on the first page.

 

 

Oh, I know we have two stat blocks already, but we're three pages in. It's a bit frustrating for people like the OP who have to sift through all these extra posts on the off chance someone else has popped some stats down.

 

He also asked for stats on Yoda, the Emperor and Fett too. Is anyone willing to show us there version of the Fett-meister?

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I'm kind of on the fence about the whole "to stat, or not to stat" thing. Whilst possessing the information would be great for comparisons and for the simple fact of HAVING them, they're not necessary to tell a good story: a GOOD GM who is familiar with the setting and with the NPC in question will know what that character is capable of, when they're likely to succeed, and where they will fail.

 

I do agree that an NPC possessing stats targets them as killable entities, and can thus drive a player onward through an assassination bent that he/she might otherwise not have had. Take, for example, Vader: almost every Jedi, or former Jedi, PC that I've ever had submitted during a Rebellion era campaign has wanted to get revenge on Vader for what he did to the Order. Or, if they haven't wanted to kill him in vengeance, they've wanted to tackle him for the sake of justice. Most of the time, in unstated games, this is simply a natural, character motivation tool: they begin with the rage and anger, but realise that there's other things they can do to help their Order, such as teaching, learning and preserving their knowledge. If, however, the player learns that you have stats at the ready for Vader, such a natural development is likely to be postponed (if it happens at all) in favour of hunting the Dark Lord down and ending him.

 

Can a PC kill them, then? Yes. I, like others, am not of the mind that an iconic should be immune to pain, suffering, or death; but because you can feasibly have them succeed or fail where it's likely to happen, the players would need to come up with something truly spectacular, or achieve a real "wow..." moment to make me think that "yeah, they deserve this victory."

 

My take, therefore, is this: allow the NPC to achieve/fail whatever you need/desire, but don't forget that the PCs drive the story as it's heroes. Therefore, if they do something truly heroic and memorable that could result in their defeating an otherwise undefeatable foe and add to the story whilst doing so, then let them do it.

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coming up with stats is a fun exercise in analyzing characters and would be a neat thing to have, but from a gameplay perspective...totally unnecessary since the intent of this game is to not really encounter these characters.

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coming up with stats is a fun exercise in analyzing characters and would be a neat thing to have, but from a gameplay perspective...totally unnecessary since the intent of this game is to not really encounter these characters.

Leaving them unstatted (or partially unstatted) also allows GMs to tweak them to the power level of their group.

But if they have to be statted I would prefer their stats be within the realm of achievable by the expectations of the system - nothing bugs more more, especially for licensed game settings, where the licensed characters are impossibly powerful compared to what the best PC can hope for (WEG d6 was particularly bad about this for the protagonists - no starting character could ever match Luke's stats from the beginning of the story, and nothing in that story would have earned him the xp to reflect the stats he had in Galaxy Guide 1 for the end of the movie, same with Solo, Chewie, etc). It's just another kind of GMPC problem.

Edited by Bahamaat

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coming up with stats is a fun exercise in analyzing characters and would be a neat thing to have, but from a gameplay perspective...totally unnecessary since the intent of this game is to not really encounter these characters.

Leaving them unstatted (or partially unstatted) also allows GMs to tweak them to the power level of their group.

But if they have to be statted I would prefer their stats be within the realm of achievable by the expectations of the system - nothing bugs more more, especially for licensed game settings, where the licensed characters are impossibly powerful compared to what the best PC can hope for (WEG d6 was particularly bad about this for the protagonists - no starting character could ever match Luke's stats from the beginning of the story, and nothing in that story would have earned him the xp to reflect the stats he had in Galaxy Guide 1 for the end of the movie, same with Solo, Chewie, etc). It's just another kind of GMPC problem.

 

That's actually another reason I would prefer that FFG not create stat blocks for the iconic characters, is exactly that sort of problem.  After all, the vast majority of the unnamed NPCs that we currently have in the books can't be recreated using the general character progression rules, since quite a few (especially the Nemesis-tier NPCs) have Characteristics that would require multiple ranks of Dedication to achieve, thus costing the PCs a slew of XP just from the costs of buying new specializations.

 

It also has the effect of putting blinders on some players, as they become obsessed with mimicking "favorite character so-and-so" to such an extent that they're terrified of letting the character grow organically as a result of their adventures if it puts them "off-track" to becoming precisely like that given character.  I saw this a lot with Saga Edition, with folks planning their character progressions from 1st level all the way up through 20th level to reach some ideal version, one that most likely wasn't going to happen seeing as how most d20 campaigns seem to lose steam once the PCs reach the early teens, mid-teens if they're lucky.

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It also has the effect of putting blinders on some players, as they become obsessed with mimicking "favorite character so-and-so" to such an extent that they're terrified of letting the character grow organically as a result of their adventures if it puts them "off-track" to becoming precisely like that given character.  I saw this a lot with Saga Edition, with folks planning their character progressions from 1st level all the way up through 20th level to reach some ideal version, one that most likely wasn't going to happen seeing as how most d20 campaigns seem to lose steam once the PCs reach the early teens, mid-teens if they're lucky.

This is pretty much the phenomena that I see in having iconic characters statted, as well as what Shakespearian_Soldier described (player obsession with killing said NPCs).

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The d6 Star Wars sourcebook was one of my all time favorites, and one of the reasons why was looking over all the movie characters stats. It was something to compare your characters to. There were several I disagreed with, like Han Solo having a way too high Con and Brawling (he usually screwed up on these in the movies.) but loved seeing 9d blaster on Boba Fett.

 

In a leveling and class system like the d20 had, and something similar in Edge, it seems less flexible than the d6 version. Luke would be a Mechanic or something, dabble in a few force skills while with Obi Won, and then spend 3 years in the rebellion as a Soldier or Pilot before ever going to see Yoda. I'm sure he advanced his force abilites a bit during those 3 years, but it couldn't have been his full focus.

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This topic gets me nostalgic for ErikB's 'Nazi fanboy' thread that ran to about 50 pages and mostly ended up discussing Red Dwarf... :(

Much as I don't ever want to see stats for the iconic NPCs, some folks do, and there's likely not much that you or I or anyone could say that would get them to change their minds.

 

In regards to WotC's Saga Edition books devoting page space to NPC write-ups of various iconic characters, both in the core rulebook and in sourcebooks, Rodney Thompson offered that for as much flak as they (WotC) might get for how such-and-such NPC's stats don't fully replicate what they've been depicted as doing in some source or another, they'd get a lot more flak for not including those stat blocks, as a number of players and GMs use those stat blocks as something of a baseline and/or measuring stick for their own PC and NPC builds.

 

Best thing is probably just skip the thread entirely if it's not to your interest.  There's a number of threads here that I've never read, and simply hit the "mark forum as read" icon at the top of the page once I've checked out the threads that do interest me.  That way, everything shows as having been read, and I've not wasted by time reading threads that don't interest me.

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Hey Donovan, we the pro-stats aren't the bad guys eh? ha ha ha

No one has to change the others, are just different "points of view".

 

I have to say that a few of you convinced me a bit with the fact of character stats, but I yet want them, maybe now in a separate book with all official canon character stats.

 

In my (previews) game mechanics I use to ignore main chars stats in favor of a cool scene (sometimes stats where nerfed and other ones op) but I always liked to have a reference from the game developers that (probably) have an accurate vision than mine about the game mechanics and stats.

 

PS: You miss ErikB Maelora? ha ha ha :P

Edited by Josep Maria

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I'm of both mindsets.

I can't wait to see the stats for Lando in the Jewel of Yavin. I would also love to see all the other movie characters stats.

 

On the other hand, my campaign is not an alternate reality campaign, and the players will never kill any of the main characters of the films, or in any other way interrupt the films continuity

 

I want the stats as a measuring stick and example of what that iconic NPC/character would be represented as in game. (I personally don't believe that the main characters should all be unobtainable in stats either. Chewbacca should not be stat'd as the toughest Wookiee in existence, etc.)

 

The PC's have encountered a few characters from the films already in my games. I just don't make an engagement with those NPC's required, and I keep the PC's away from major film story plots. I give the PC's major story plots of their own, so that they don't feel like the side characters in the plot.

Characters that no longer appear in the film story when they show up in my games timeline are fair game too. (Like the Bounty Hunters)

Edited by Grimmshade

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I've found in the past that if you make the players and their characters feel suitably awesome, and keep them busy saving worlds, brokering intergalactic deals and saving damsels in distress (or Ewoks in drag... depends on your present level of alcohol consumption), then they don't feel the need to touch the main storyline, at least not until it's thrown in their face.

 

I mean, who wants to go calling out Vader when that pirate captain is still at large, the one who destroyed your freighter and killed your favourite chinchilla? Let Luke have the Dark Lord, because the pirate? He's mine.

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He was statted out in d20 Saga Edition.  You might try doing a conversion.  Basically he was that game's equivalent of max-level and could seriously throw out some hurt.

 

I believe he was only Level 18.  Palpy and Yoda were the only Level 20 characters in the book, if i recall.  

 

As far as Vader's skills go, after watching Rebels, I'm very much in the mindset that he should have max Piloting.  After watching him single-handedly destroy a fighter squadron and a command ship, while forcing 2 blockade runners and couple fighters to run for their lives, there's no doubt his piloting skills aren't legendary.  

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I seem to recall Vader appeared in the Rebellion day module, "Rescue at Glare Peak". It did not stat Vader. The whole premise of the module is that Vader is coming, and you'd better haul ass out of there. Because his stats? If Vader catches you, you die.

 

I'm okay with this. I mean, I'm not saying in every adventure, Vader's arrival should necessarily herald the party's death. But if it fits the theme of the adventure, then sure. I don't mind extrapolating Vader into a purely narrative entity. The PCs should have opportunity to escape, and if they play smart, hopefully they will. If not, then Vader kills them. Let's face it: getting killed by Darth Vader actually sounds like a lot of fun.

 

If you want to do an "Inglourious Basterds" rendition of Star Wars, and have an alternate universe where an Alliance SpecOps team assassinates Vader? Then by all means, stat him up, and let 'er rip. Ideally he should kill a few PCs before they bring him down, but make it doable.

 

I'd rather the stat blocks remain homebrew considerations though. As people have said, official stat blocks lead to the, "If you stat it, they will kill it" mentality. I want to have that mystery available to me. I can build a Vader. No problem there. But if he gets made "official" I lose that mysteriousness. Even if I tell my players, "I'm not going by the Vader in the rules", the official stat block still creates a benchmark, and instills a certain, "We can take him" confidence. If there's no official stats for him, then the PCs have absolutely no idea what to expect. And that's a very powerful thing.

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I think FFG has made it pretty clear. They are not going to stat up an NPC unless it is for an adventure. When they do it will just be the stuff needed for the adventure and by no means complete. Case in Point Lando. 

I don't think arguing about it will change FFGs Policy. And really statting up these guys just leads to arguments about how they are wrong...Why would FFG want to open that can of worms?

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I think FFG has made it pretty clear. They are not going to stat up an NPC unless it is for an adventure. When they do it will just be the stuff needed for the adventure and by no means complete. Case in Point Lando. 

I don't think arguing about it will change FFGs Policy. And really statting up these guys just leads to arguments about how they are wrong...Why would FFG want to open that can of worms?

I'm of the same mind. I like what they did with Lando, specifically calling out "This is 'Smooth-Talking Administrator' Lando. We'd need a whole book to cover the full spectrum of this guy, so here's how he's presented today."

 

For someone like Vader, you'd probably have "Lightsaber Duelist Vader" "Scary Intimidator Vader", etc. Heck, for Vader or the Emperor, I'd probably make them both "environmental effects"

Example:

PCs are escaping from Vader

PC #1! Make a Lightsaber check to get past Vader as he attempts to lock you into a duel!

PC #2! Make a Discipline check to not be affected by Vader's attempts to use your insecurities against you!

PC #3! Make an Athletics check to catch yourself as Vader attempts to force-push you out a window!

 

and so on and so forth, hammering home that this guy isn't a pool of HP to be depleted, but a series of absurdly difficult obstacles between you and your goal that you might BARELY survive.

Edited by drbraininajar

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