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zeb

"After you travel" trigger timing query

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Hi,

 

I travel to Forest Gate:

Response: After you travel to Forest Gate, the first player may draw 2 cards.

 

So I draw two cards, one of which being Strength of Will:

Response: After you travel to a location, exhaust a Spirit character to place 2 progress tokens on that locaton.

Can I play it immediately to place 2 progress tokens on Forest Gate I just travelled to? Initially I thought I could do it, because I am still within the travelling phase. But now I am unsure, since I did not have the Strength of Will card when the "After you travel" trigger occurred. Is there any ruling regarding this?

 

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Hi,

 

I travel to Forest Gate:

Response: After you travel to Forest Gate, the first player may draw 2 cards.

 

So I draw two cards, one of which being Strength of Will:

Response: After you travel to a location, exhaust a Spirit character to place 2 progress tokens on that locaton.

Can I play it immediately to place 2 progress tokens on Forest Gate I just travelled to? Initially I thought I could do it, because I am still within the travelling phase. But now I am unsure, since I did not have the Strength of Will card when the "After you travel" trigger occurred. Is there any ruling regarding this?

A response has to be played immediatly after - which means exactly at the point after when the event that it is responding to triggers. Because you draw the cards after you travel to Forest Gate, the process of travelling is already complete - and you can't play Strength of Will.

 

Or, in other words: because you didn't have Strength of Will in your hand at the point when you travelled to Forest Gate, you can't use it's response effect (note that if it was an action you could have used it).

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A response has to be played immediatly after - which means exactly at the point after when the event that it is responding to triggers. Because you draw the cards after you travel to Forest Gate, the process of travelling is already complete - and you can't play Strength of Will.

 

Or, in other words: because you didn't have Strength of Will in your hand at the point when you travelled to Forest Gate, you can't use it's response effect (note that if it was an action you could have used it).

I do not agree from the second sentence onwards.  That is, it is true that "A response has to be played immediatly after"; however, multiple responses can be triggered by the single trigger.  In this case, the trigger is travelling to the Forest Gate, then you response by drawing cards.  You are still at the timing of responding to travelling to the Forest Gate when you have the Strength of WIll in your hand (you haven't take another Action, or going to the next step of the Framework structure), so you can still trigger other Responses to travelling to the Forest Gate.  Therefore, you can play Strength of Will now.

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Love these kinds of questions!  

 

I agree with leptokurt.  Angus is right in saying that one event can trigger multiple responses, or in other words, playing a Response card does not "count" as an intervening effect between the trigger and subsequent Responses.  But I think the card does need to be in your hand at the time that the trigger occurs.  

 

I see it like this: at the moment that the trigger occurs, you have one chance to immediately queue up all possible Responses.  If you proceed to draw 2 cards from Forest Gate, then that queue-up moment has passed.  If you subsequently drawing Strength of Will, you've missed the trigger, which occurred before the draw, as evidenced by triggering Forest Gate's responses!

 

It's a touchy-feely type of question though, and you can see where different interpretations can easily arise.

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Thanks for your answers. Indeed the rule book says to play Responses immediately after the trigger. But it is not entirely clear to me if the target of this trigger has to be available in your hand. I realised this question can concern some other cards, such as Foe-Hammer:

Response: After a hero you control attacks and destroys an enemy, exhaust a Weapon card attached to that hero to draw 3 cards.

There is a window of Action at the end of Player Attack. Thus if after I destroy an enemy and I play an Action that allows me to draw cards (e.g. Gandalf) and draw Foe-Hammer, can I still play it immediately, or has the trigger "expired" because of having an Action? Has anyone encountered such situation, with this card or any other card?

 

I have submitted the original question to Caleb and will return to you.

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A response has to be played immediatly after - which means exactly at the point after when the event that it is responding to triggers. Because you draw the cards after you travel to Forest Gate, the process of travelling is already complete - and you can't play Strength of Will.

 

Or, in other words: because you didn't have Strength of Will in your hand at the point when you travelled to Forest Gate, you can't use it's response effect (note that if it was an action you could have used it).

I do not agree from the second sentence onwards.  That is, it is true that "A response has to be played immediatly after"; however, multiple responses can be triggered by the single trigger.  In this case, the trigger is travelling to the Forest Gate, then you response by drawing cards.  You are still at the timing of responding to travelling to the Forest Gate when you have the Strength of WIll in your hand (you haven't take another Action, or going to the next step of the Framework structure), so you can still trigger other Responses to travelling to the Forest Gate.  Therefore, you can play Strength of Will now.

 

Perhaps my wording was bad.

 

A response triggers exactly when the event it is refering to occurs. Strength of Will's response can only trigger in the moment you are travelling to a location. But in that very moment you don't have SoW in your hand, as Forest Gate's response triggers immediatly after travelling.

 

 

The sequence of events looks like this:

 

1) travel

 

2) check for responses

 

3) resolve response

 

Step 1 and 2 happen at the same time. Step 3 takes place immediatly after step 2. As you are drawing the two cards during step 3 you cannot use their response effects.

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I agree with Angus on this one.

The first player decides the order in which the triggered responses occur. Both of these have the same trigger and the game hasn´t moved on from the initial triggering event.

 

 

The sequence of events looks like this:

 

1) travel

 

2) check for responses

 

3) resolve response

 

Step 1 and 2 happen at the same time. Step 3 takes place immediatly after step 2. As you are drawing the two cards during step 3 you cannot use their response effects.

 

 

Lepto: do you actually have an official site you´re quoting or is this merely how you picture it?

Edited by Nerdmeister

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Thanks for your answers. Indeed the rule book says to play Responses immediately after the trigger. But it is not entirely clear to me if the target of this trigger has to be available in your hand. I realised this question can concern some other cards, such as Foe-Hammer:

Response: After a hero you control attacks and destroys an enemy, exhaust a Weapon card attached to that hero to draw 3 cards.

There is a window of Action at the end of Player Attack. Thus if after I destroy an enemy and I play an Action that allows me to draw cards (e.g. Gandalf) and draw Foe-Hammer, can I still play it immediately, or has the trigger "expired" because of having an Action? Has anyone encountered such situation, with this card or any other card?

 

I have submitted the original question to Caleb and will return to you.

In this case, since an Action has been taken (to draw the response card), the timing for triggering a response for "after destroying an enemy" is definitely passed, so you cannot play that response anymore.

 

Look forward to hearing the official words for the original question, thank you Zeb!

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I agree with Angus on this one.

The first player decides the order in which the triggered responses occur. Both of these have the same trigger and the game hasn´t moved on from the initial triggering event.

 

 

The sequence of events looks like this:

 

1) travel

 

2) check for responses

 

3) resolve response

 

Step 1 and 2 happen at the same time. Step 3 takes place immediatly after step 2. As you are drawing the two cards during step 3 you cannot use their response effects.

 

 

Lepto: do you actually have an official site you´re quoting or is this merely how you picture it?

You don't need an official site, because there is no need for a special ruling (just in case , the rulebook deals with responses on page 23). If you follow the events bit by bit you will see that the moment in which SoW's response triggers is already over when it enters play. Because it is still in the player deck when you travel to Forest Gate

 

You say that the first player chooses which response effect should trigger first. In our case the first player can choose between Forest Gate's effect and - nothing else. So you travel to Forest Gate, the effect of the location triggers and you draw two cards. SoW's response effect can't trigger because you already solved the response effects. If that doesn't convince you, SoW's response says straight forward"after you travel" - so travelling is already over when you draw these two cards.

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You say that the first player chooses which response effect should trigger first. In our case the first player can choose between Forest Gate's effect and - nothing else. So you travel to Forest Gate, the effect of the location triggers and you draw two cards. SoW's response effect can't trigger because you already solved the response effects. If that doesn't convince you, SoW's response says straight forward"after you travel" - so travelling is already over when you draw these two cards.

 

 

You say there is no need for an official site. But at no point have I myself found a place where it states that you have to decide on all responses the moment a triggering event occurs, which is the heart of the question.

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You say that the first player chooses which response effect should trigger first. In our case the first player can choose between Forest Gate's effect and - nothing else. So you travel to Forest Gate, the effect of the location triggers and you draw two cards. SoW's response effect can't trigger because you already solved the response effects. If that doesn't convince you, SoW's response says straight forward"after you travel" - so travelling is already over when you draw these two cards.

 

 

You say there is no need for an official site. But at no point have I myself found a place where it states that you have to decide on all responses the moment a triggering event occurs, which is the heart of the question.

 

I said there is no need for an exttra ruling. The rules say that a response triggers immediatly after the event it is responding to occurs. Core set rules page 23, like I mentioned. That is why they are called responses. Something happens, and you can choose to respond or not. You cannot delay that decision, except if it is a passive response.

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But I am not delaying it by doing it in a certain order. It is still within the timeframe given. The responses can´t all be made at the excact same time.

Say if the same scenario with Forest Gate and Strength of Will featured with the twist that one of the players (not first player) has SoW in his hand when the first player decides to travel to Forest Gate. Then after the first player has drawn 2 cards it then occurs to the player with SoW to play it (for whatever reason). Is he not allowed to since he did not announce his intent immediately even if the flow of the game hasn´t moved on to actions?

What if, with a setup similar to the one just mentioned, the first player travels to Forest Gate and immediately draws 2 cards, forgetting to ask, or wait for, other players to declare the intent to act on the triggering event?

 

We would be getting to a point then, that the whole game would slow to a crawl everywhere, because at all times, players would have to ask after every conceivable triggering event (and there are ALOT during a single turn of play) if anyone has something they want to do. Just to be sure somebody didn´t miss a beat.

Frankly that doesn´t sound like a game I´d want to play. And I want to play this game.

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Caleb just answered me, and many of you will probably be surprised, except Nerdmeister :) . Here is his answer:

 

Hi Eric,
You can play the Strength of Will that you drew with the Forest Gate. When multiple Response effects share the same trigger, you can decide which order to trigger them in. So in this example, you can choose to trigger the Forest Gate first to draw 2 cards. One of those cards (Strength of Will) happens to have a Response effect that can be triggered as well, so you choose to play that next.
Cheers,
Caleb

 

So I understand that you can queue Responses for the same trigger, and if a response leads to obtain a new Response for the same trigger, you can queue it and play it immediately. For clarification purposes, I have asked him to clarify when a trigger expires. And this is is answer:

Any Response effect that has a trigger needs to be played immediately after its trigger. (It's because you can only play 1 effect at a time that the players get to choose which order to resolve multiple Response effects with the same trigger.) Once the game advances (a player plays an action, a new phase begins, etc) the opportunity to play a Response is done.

Edited by zeb

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Caleb just answered me, and many of you will probably be surprised, except Nerdmeister :) . Here is his answer:

 

Hi Eric,

You can play the Strength of Will that you drew with the Forest Gate. When multiple Response effects share the same trigger, you can decide which order to trigger them in. So in this example, you can choose to trigger the Forest Gate first to draw 2 cards. One of those cards (Strength of Will) happens to have a Response effect that can be triggered as well, so you choose to play that next.

Cheers,

Caleb

 

So I understand that you can queue Responses for the same trigger, and if a response leads to obtain a new Response for the same trigger, you can queue it and play it immediately. For clarification purposes, I have asked him to clarify when a trigger expires. And this is is answer:

Any Response effect that has a trigger needs to be played immediately after its trigger. (It's because you can only play 1 effect at a time that the players get to choose which order to resolve multiple Response effects with the same trigger.) Once the game advances (a player plays an action, a new phase begins, etc) the opportunity to play a Response is done.

Cool, so now you don't have to have a card in your hand to trigger its effects?

 

But if that is true, how can Thalin's effect happen before Eastern Crow's surge effect? Caleb's new ruling says that between a trigger and its solution there is no time between. So even if you resolve Thalin's effect first, we should still have to reveal the surge effect from Eastern Crows. Because it is triggered immediatly after the Crows are revealed from the encounter deck. But if responses work that why, surge effects should also be queued until every other effect resolves.

 

To give another bizarre example:

 

Say there is a treachery that tells you: "When revealed: "Draw one card and resolve its effect." You draw a card and it is a "A Test of Will". So according to the new rules, as no time has passed at all,  you use it to cancel the treachery's effect. But if you cancel the when revealed effect you cannot draw a card. So you never got "A Test of Will" which means you have to trigger the when revealed effect. You draw a card and it is A Test of Will.....

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Interestingly, this question was raised playing Passage, the very first scenario! And it is quite unsettling many people play got it wrong after so many expansions and so much time. This demonstrates that at some point they will need to release a very detaild sequence sheet with more precise timings, similar to what they did for AGoT. I suggested this to Caleb.

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But if that is true, how can Thalin's effect happen before Eastern Crow's surge effect? Caleb's new ruling says that between a trigger and its solution there is no time between. So even if you resolve Thalin's effect first, we should still have to reveal the surge effect from Eastern Crows. Because it is triggered immediatly after the Crows are revealed from the encounter deck. But if responses work that why, surge effects should also be queued until every other effect resolves.

 

To give another bizarre example:

 

Say there is a treachery that tells you: "When revealed: "Draw one card and resolve its effect." You draw a card and it is a "A Test of Will". So according to the new rules, as no time has passed at all,  you use it to cancel the treachery's effect. But if you cancel the when revealed effect you cannot draw a card. So you never got "A Test of Will" which means you have to trigger the when revealed effect. You draw a card and it is A Test of Will.....

 

Regarding Thalin: don't forget his ability is a Passive effect (no keyword) and thus it takes precedence before any other effect, being Forced or voluntary Action. Furthermore, the card text itself was errata'ed (or at least clarified) that it takes precedence on any keyword. Golden Rule applies. Lastly, Caleb does not say there is no time between trigger and solution, but a trigger does not expire until the game advances with an Action or a new phase.

 

For your second example, it is interesting. Would you care to ask Caleb?

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Interestingly, this question was raised playing Passage, the very first scenario! And it is quite unsettling many people play got it wrong after so many expansions and so much time. This demonstrates that at some point they will need to release a very detaild sequence sheet with more precise timings, similar to what they did for AGoT. I suggested this to Caleb.

You mean "so many interpret the rules differently than Caleb does"? (I'm not even sure if "so many" is true). One problem is that it was Nate French who designed the earlier cards and he had a slightly different mind about the rules and how they're supposed to work.

 

 

 

Regarding Thalin: don't forget his ability is a Passive effect (no keyword) and thus it takes precedence before any other effect, being Forced or voluntary Action. Furthermore, the card text itself was errata'ed (or at least clarified) that it takes precedence on any keyword. Golden Rule applies. Lastly, Caleb does not say there is no time between trigger and solution, but a trigger does not expire until the game advances with an Action or a new phase.

 

 

I agree that a trigger does not expire when it has been triggered at the same time as another trigger. But a trigger that is triggererd after resolving another trigger is not triggererd at the same time.

 

For your second example, it is interesting. Would you care to ask Caleb?

I honestly have no clue how to contact him.

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In regard to Thalin: Any enemies that leave play as a result of his ability enters an out-of-state-play and thus cannot have their effects triggered any longer.

The FAQ has an example (page 3; 1,02) with playing Beorn with Sneak Attack (put ally in question into your hand at end of phase) and then triggering his effect (+6 attack and shuffle him back in deck at end of phase). In the FAQ the player decides the order in which these simultaneus effects occur. If the player decides to put Beorn into his hand, as per the Sneak Attack ruling, Beorn has then left play and the second effect (shuffle Beorn into deck) no longer applies.

Thalin´s ability works on the same basic principle.

 

In regards to your second example: I´m a bit confused. Do you mean a treachery card instructs you to draw one of your own cards to resolve? In any regard, once you have started resolving an effect, you resolve it fully before you move on to other things. Responses can sometimes counter an effect before it begins to take place and cannot be played half-way through resolving said effect (again barring a card that might specifically state that it can do such a thing).

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Caleb just answered me, and many of you will probably be surprised, except Nerdmeister :)

And I'm not surprised, too :) It is consistent with other LCG such as CoC.  Nice to know the official ruling, thanks Zeb!

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