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Tom Cruise

It's too easy to hit with Spray

27 posts in this topic

Spray, at the moment, is a boring, slightly overpowered mechanic. 

 

All characters in the weapon’s path, a cone-shaped area extending in a 30-degree from the firer out to the weapon’s range, each count as being stuck by a separate attack with the degrees of success from the attack test.

A success hits EVERYONE in the area? I think that's a bit much. Shouldn't it be based on DoS? Changing it to "for each DoS scored on the test, one enemy within the area of effect counts as being struck by an attack" would make a lot more sense, I think.

 

Thoughts?

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Maybe it would be good to be forced to define one "main target".

 

All other target in the weapons spray area would be checked accourding to the main target in the center of the spray.

 

All other targets than the main target get +10 on their evading attempts.

 

If range modifiers would return, you could take as an alternative, that spray dioes not work on short and point blank ranges (too narrow spray zone allows only 1 target).

 

But I could also very well go with your proposal (did I just really say that ?).

 

 

One other thought I just got to balance out flamers:

What about giving a small rule to make called shots against promethium-tanks of flamers (could also be used if the weapon is another weapon that uses a kind of fuel canister of some size), that can actually make the canister/tank explode, maybe at 50% or at a certain amount of needed DoS.

This would be cineastic and give a real downside to such weapons, as they use their canister, all their ammunition in the canister, and suffer the weapons damage themselves...a nightmare.

Edited by GauntZero

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One of my problems is actually how easy it is to miss entirely. A spray attack, which allegedly fills a 30 degree slice full of stuff (flame, shot, mini missles etc), apparently only has a straight BS check to hit anything in that area. BS of 38? 39 or higher and apparently handy people shaped holes appear in your spray which means you don't hit anything. Or you accidentally point your gun into the air and fire that way... just under 2/3 of the time.

 

Now, I personally feel Spray is ridiculous for shotguns anyway (shot doesn't spread by that amount, and you have the strange element of suddenly it all falling out of the air at 30m), and I will accept that it is slightly more reasonable for flamers (as I don't actually see it as it projecting a 30 degree cone, but the firer spraying over that area in the period of the burst. However, even then, simply filling that kind of area with burning fuel should make it more likely you will hit someone.

 

Now, I understand the motive for the change (simplify, cut down on dice rolls, and make spray less powerful), but it doesn't model anything well. Personally I would say do something like grant it a big bonus to hit, and then you divide DoS between targets in the zone. That or just return it to the old rules, though that may throw the balance out.

Lautrer likes this

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One other thought I just got to balance out flamers:

What about giving a small rule to make called shots against promethium-tanks of flamers (could also be used if the weapon is another weapon that uses a kind of fuel canister of some size), that can actually make the canister/tank explode, maybe at 50% or at a certain amount of needed DoS.

 

 

Ahh... Great Idea. I will introduce such a rule when restarting my campaign. Bye bye Sororitas with the big flamer! :rolleyes:

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perhaps have it reduce status instead. Then it would typically take two hits so as not to overly punish those with flamers.

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On the subject of spray, it occurs to me that independent targeting's mechanic is not as transparent, but it is already extant. One could port it over and it would nicely represent the idea of a primary target and secondary hits within the designated area. The difference would be that instead of transferring DoS like with independent targeting you would just apply a single hit to each. This would mean every target besides the primary would have a much easier time of dodging, but the spray attack would still be superior to independent targeting within its niche. 

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One other thought I just got to balance out flamers:

What about giving a small rule to make called shots against promethium-tanks of flamers (could also be used if the weapon is another weapon that uses a kind of fuel canister of some size), that can actually make the canister/tank explode, maybe at 50% or at a certain amount of needed DoS.

This would be cineastic and give a real downside to such weapons, as they use their canister, all their ammunition in the canister, and suffer the weapons damage themselves...a nightmare.

 

 

seems a bit harsh for the standard weapon (which only has a very small tank) - one could just as easily say the same about most weapon's ammo. I'd love to see this as a rule/drawback for someone taking a backpack fuel supply, though - it makes the classic guard/sororitas "flamer with tanks" scary but incredibly dangerous to carry....

 

I don't know. I've never liked the "define a 30o arc" much because it felt too wargame-ey; we tend to play all combats pretty much narratively. Yes, all right, I know I can just tell you that opponents X, Y and Z are in the arc but it just reads much more mechanistically than most rules.

 

More importantly, rolling one BS roll to hit everyone in the arc feels wrong. BS should definitely come into it - I much prefer that to matter than the old "everyone make agility checks", but a BS roll should define how the shot is distributed through the target area, not how dense it is across the whole area.

 

I like Tom Cruise's suggestion of one target hit per DOS. A shotgun firing scattershot shouldn't be able to do damage to a charging line of dudes ten metres or more end-to-end. Catching a couple of adjacent people, fine.

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Watching the Gameplay as a gamemaster I was angry with how shotguns have spray and here's why: 1238731_626471737385108_1803228928_n.jpg

(Sorry The picture is a little large.)

 

The paper man has been shot 5 times by 1oz. Rifled slugs from 3 distances: 50yds, 40yards x2 and 25yds x2 (I think), I know It's not relevant to the post but I'm going for full disclosure. 

Also, He has been shot by 5 times by 9 pellet 00 buck. from two distances 15yds x2 and 7 yds. x3. 

 

All was fired from an 18" smooth bore with a modified choke (A mid range choke that will still allow the firing of a slug without blowing your choke out of the gun.)

 

The pellets are .32-.33 caliber, the pellet holes on opposite sides of the paper are from different shells. I know that in the distant future things might be different but if the shotgun is suppose to be similar to ours being hit by an individual pellet would be similar to being shot by a .32-.380 caliber pistol. This would probably be similar to the Autopistol. A damage rating of 1d10 would be appropriate if the target was struck by a single pellet.    

 

The spray quality however is stupid. The 'Shotgun' with a range of 30m, and spray can hit every target in a 30 degree cone, which is roughly 15m wide at 30m and covers roughly 225 square meters. Where as a real shotgun at 30m might be twice as wide of a spread as the spread portrayed in the picture. With the potential to hit 9 seperate targets (Hopelessly optimistic), or one target several times (more likely).

 

At a distance of under 7yds. It would be very hard to hit more then one target, but you would do a lot more damage then 1d10+2 I think.

 

I propose the removal of spray from the shotgun entirely, replaced with 'Special' with something along the lines of:

 

8m and under Storm or improved damage

15m ability to affect targets adjacient to primary target albeit with only the potential to hit once.

at 25m+ a bonus to hit target by +10

 

And in zero gravity or void... don't even get met started.

GauntZero likes this

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Agree! DoS is a great idea.

Example: Spray: +30 to hit. One enemy hit per DoS starting with the target closest to the firer and then the closest enemy to the last one hit after this. Hits from spray ignore cover.

 

With this addition maybe flamers ought to be one shot (then again I feel all 1/2 weapons would be better of being RoA 1 and one shot)

 

@Elohiem_militant: No shotguns should ever have spray, I agree to that! (further discussed in shotguns compared to flamers)

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There's also the issue of ensuring we avoid the 3.x problem of "you can always dodge out of the way, even though the current set-up should be invoking "chunky salsa rules" on you instead of letting you dodge out of the way.

 

Very few blasts, even dead on target, are wide enough to avoid getting hopped out of.

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In terms of unified and consistent mechanics I actually like the idea of just using storm for shotguns, maybe with a small damage increase. Storm has the advantage of not creating silly amount of damage against a high Tb and power armored target like a massive damage increase might, but it allows a lot of stopping power without requiring many DoS. Storm also pretty much destroys novices, allowing for that instant blown away effect we viscerally want out of a shotgun.

 

Lastly, no need for a special rule if you just bump up the damage and give them storm. You could even give concussive or something similar if you wanted to use another existing quality to improve the efficacy of the weapon. 

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Two hits for a shotgun sounds ok. But storm specifies that no more hits than RoA can hit. Either storm would have to change, risking unbalanced stormbolters or shotgun deserves its own scatter rule.

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I don't think shotguns need to have the ability to hit more than twice. If you want a weapon with lots of hits corresponding with DoS then use a high RoF weapon. Making shotguns into the same thing seems silly. Shotguns should be easier to use as well, and storm is easier to use effectively in the sense that you get all of your bang out of 1 DoS. 

 

In the end the ability of a shotgun to take down a target is not dependent on sniper skills putting each pellet on target, it's that a (slightly) broadened field of impact from a large bore weapon blows unlivable holes in unarmoured targets. So, represent that with the numbers and get away from the idea that a shotgun is an AoE weapon or a machine gun, it is neither.

 

If anything the scatter special quality should mean you have +10 BS at short range or perhaps that you can make called shots to the body for free or that when you hit you roll for a hit location and then choose an adjacent hit location and apply the damage to both and count the hit as two wounds (pretty much storm in terms of end result). 

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If anything the scatter special quality should mean you have +10 BS at short range or perhaps that you can make called shots to the body for free or that when you hit you roll for a hit location and then choose an adjacent hit location and apply the damage to both and count the hit as two wounds (pretty much storm in terms of end result). 

 

I kinda like this too.

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A variable damage rate based on DoS could also represent the scatter of pellets, I think. Maybe even make it that a token amount of damage is dealt when you fail to a minor extent (only one DoF)

Edited by Tom Cruise

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Is that more 'real' though? I mean, I know nothing about guns, but logic would dictate a spread of pellets would make it easier to hit at range than with a standard gun, not harder. Sure, their effective range is lower, but that's represented by the actual range of the gun. 

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If it is like in movies, thats real enough for me ;D

 

I would like my shotguns to baaaaam up doors and hit those hard that try to get in melee with me.

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Tom is right, shotguns at point blank range are no easier to hit with than any other gun. The spread actually makes them easier to hit with once the pellets have left the barrel for several feet and begun to spread. Easier here is also kind of a matter of relative values since the spread goes expands to a couple of feet at varying ranges depending on the choke of the barrel (how narrow it is) but it also loses pretty much all stopping power since the chance of a pattern that wide actually landing pellets in a vital spot diminishes rapidly as the density around your point of aim decreases (assuming you aimed at a vital point).

 

Given the imprecision of trying to depict all of that with a few numbers I would lean toward shorter range being a limiting factor and not trying to over-complicate things. The fact it that shotguns are large bore weapons which means lots of stopping power regardless of what they are loaded with when fired up close, and they are not a freaking Cone of Cold or whatever. Fix that and I am much closer to happy.

 

GauntZero has a point of course, this is not about realism, it is about 40k, which is not exactly a hard science universe. Rule of cool and all that. 

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