Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Space Monkey

Move power and Disarming?

Recommended Posts

Is there no defence against the Force Users ability to disarm someone with the Move power?

 

If not then surely Force User duals (or any fights for that matter) will just deteriorate into whoever has initiative just disarming their opponent, even though this wasn't seen in the films.

 

I guess this could be stretched out to all Force powers...  do Force Users get no defence at all against a power used on them by someone else?

 

Have I missed something in the rules?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You haven't missed anything.  Per RAW, there's zero defense against being disarmed by the Move power.  Very much like there's no defense against being disarmed by an attacker that rolls 3 Advantage on their check and decides that's how they want to spend it.

 

With only two notable exceptions (being targeted by a hurled object via Move and the 'alter thoughts' Control Upgrade for Influence), there's no means to defend against another Force power.  Which goes in line with the Original Trilogy, as we didn't see anyone actively able to defend themselves against direct application of telekinesis or even Force Lightning until the prequels, and even then it was by fully-trained Jedi Knights and Masters, not self-taught exiles (EotE) and emergents (AoR).

 

This was discussed during the Q&A session that the Order 66 podcast had with Jay Little and Sam Stewart, as well as being discussed in a prior thread in this forum.  In short, officially there's no defense, though if a GM wanted to house-rule something, it'd be an opposed check against the Force-user's Discipline, with suggestions ranging from straight Brawn to actually using the combat skill related to the weapon to "keep your grip."

 

I don't see the need for such a thing, unless you're also going to house rule that someone subjected to a disarm via 3 Advantage also gets a check to keep hold of their weapon.  The Force-user has had to pay a hefty price in terms of XP (at least 20 to become Force-Sensitive, 10 for the Move Power, minimum of 20 additional to get the ability to disarm via the Force) and still needs to either roll a Light Side pip or suffer strain/flip a Destiny Point to use a Dark Side pip to activate the power.  That's not cheap in the slightest, to say nothing of the fact that such an act pretty much screams "Hey, I'm a Force-user!" to any and all present.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But if the flims were to be translated into this game, then both Luke and Vader would have both had this ability and disarmed each other before or during the duel to avoid being decapitated, right?  :D

 

Also, the Jedi always deflect blaster bolts, but wouldn't it just be safer to buy Move Object with the disarm and magnitude powers, walk into a room full of Storm Troopers and steal ALL their rifles before the fight even started?

 

At the end of the day, if players can exploit some kind of rules loop hole many (not all!) of them will. I know my players would!

 

I'd love to run this game, but there are various rules I've found that my players would just take and walk all over my campaign with  :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah... No... There is story and cinematics, and then there is so called rational choice, game theory and other more or less antisocial theories of human behavior rooted in a sociopath's imagination, distinctly lacking discipline, honor, sense of tradition and values outside momentary gain and so called effectiveness.

While you in one way are right, this is one of those cases where if abused by players, or GM, a house rule should be out in place, because otherwise it would/could remove the fun from the game to some degree or another, unless everyone involved prefers a Move slugfest, instead of a lightsaber duel.

The idea is to create cool and engaging stories right? if players disrupts the game in such a manner, send a bunch of evil force users after them doing the exact same thing, except with a higher force rating, now it isn't so fun anymore... Is it?

Players should, in my mind, strive to fit into the hero role, rather than being a knowledgable consumer of films, books and tv-shows putting this to use in a different world, time and context... Suspension of disbelief, role playing and disengaging from real life and experience are key ideas I try to promote... Don't game the system, don't game the world, play in it, submerge yourself in an escape from reality, delve into another world with another set of rules, ideas and norms, adapt to it and enjoy... At least these are my ideals. :ph34r:

Edited by Jegergryte

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't looked at the rules closely, but I wouldn't let them yank more than one weapon at a time unless a huge number of advantages were rolled. I am sure other *trained* Force users can protect themselves from such moves when F&D comes out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see the need for such a thing, unless you're also going to house rule that someone subjected to a disarm via 3 Advantage also gets a check to keep hold of their weapon.

This bears repeating. If one makes the Move check opposed, it takes away the whole rationale for spending XP on the Force. Might as well upgrade your Melee skill and wait for those frequent 3As.

Edited by whafrog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't looked at the rules closely, but I wouldn't let them yank more than one weapon at a time unless a huge number of advantages were rolled. I am sure other *trained* Force users can protect themselves from such moves when F&D comes out

Well, for the Move power, you'd need to activate one or more Magnitude Upgrades if you wanted to disarm multiple people at once.  And you'd need a huge pile of Advantage (or Triumph) if you wanted to disarm several people via a combat check.

 

But you're right, in that we're currently not seeing the entire picture when it comes to Force-users, including ways for them to protect themselves.

 

Space Monkey,

As for why Luke and Vader didn't just do that, it's simply down to rules of cinema.  In ESB, Luke probably didn't have that ability yet, and Vader wanted to actually see what his son was capable of, so he had no reason to simply yoink Luke's weapon away.

 

Come RotJ, even though Luke has demonstrated that ability, it could be that he needed to dedicate too many of his Force Rating dice to Ongoing Effects (Sense's defense & offense upgrades, and Enhance's boost to Agility and/or Brawn), leaving him no dice to really try that trick with.  Vader was still in the "testing what this kid can do" phase as well as trying to actively corrupt Luke, which is easier if the kid's got a weapon in his hands.

 

I'd also agree with Jegergryte that you've got some ******* players if all they do is try to exploit rules loopholes in a vain attempt to "win" at RPGs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Force Disarm is an ACTION.
If Jedi A disarms Jedi B, it's then Jedi B's turn.
Jedi B picks up saber with move and disarms Jedi A.
Jedi A picks up saber with move and disarms Jedi B.
Jedi B picks up saber with move and disarms Jedi A.
Jedi A picks up saber with move and disarms Jedi B....
Whats the advantage of this?

Also there's a limit to the number disarms a force user can do. That limit is equal to the number of pips rolled. If Space Monkey's players walk into a room with 20 dudes with guns (assuming FR1), at the end of round one, they'll have 18-19 blaster bolts to dodge. As per my previous example with jedi, at the end of round 2, if they try disarming again, they'll have... 18-19 blaster bolts to have to dodge.

 

Enemies aren't going to just stand around in the middle of a fight twiddling their thumbs FOREVER if they get disarmed. Also, there's no attacks of opportunity in EotE.

 

Even if you say the disarm sends the weapon flying away, 1st example changes to:

A disarms B, then it's B's turn.

B moves to saber, suffers strain to pick up saber. and disarms A.

A moves to saber, suffers strain to pick up saber, and disarms B.

B moves to saber, suffers strain to pick up saber. and disarms A.

A moves to saber, suffers strain to pick up saber, and disarms B....

Congratulations, you have 2 jedi that fall unconscious because they got too tired of walking around, picking up their lightsabers, when they didn't even get to swing them.

 

Example 2 doesn't change, there's enough other guys with guns to cover them while they retrieve their guns.

Edited by Digiblade

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I haven't looked at the rules closely, but I wouldn't let them yank more than one weapon at a time unless a huge number of advantages were rolled. I am sure other *trained* Force users can protect themselves from such moves when F&D comes out

Well, for the Move power, you'd need to activate one or more Magnitude Upgrades if you wanted to disarm multiple people at once.  And you'd need a huge pile of Advantage (or Triumph) if you wanted to disarm several people via a combat check.

 

But you're right, in that we're currently not seeing the entire picture when it comes to Force-users, including ways for them to protect themselves.

 

Space Monkey,

As for why Luke and Vader didn't just do that, it's simply down to rules of cinema.  In ESB, Luke probably didn't have that ability yet, and Vader wanted to actually see what his son was capable of, so he had no reason to simply yoink Luke's weapon away.

 

Come RotJ, even though Luke has demonstrated that ability, it could be that he needed to dedicate too many of his Force Rating dice to Ongoing Effects (Sense's defense & offense upgrades, and Enhance's boost to Agility and/or Brawn), leaving him no dice to really try that trick with.  Vader was still in the "testing what this kid can do" phase as well as trying to actively corrupt Luke, which is easier if the kid's got a weapon in his hands.

 

I'd also agree with Jegergryte that you've got some ******* players if all they do is try to exploit rules loopholes in a vain attempt to "win" at RPGs.

 

 

Oh, you don't know the half of it  <_<

 

That's my main worry with any games I play. At the end of the day I've been RPing with these guys for over 20 years. I know how they think. I'm always the GM/DM/Storyteller/Referee/etc cos I'm the only mug that spends money buying books and the only mug that is willing to put in the time to make adventures.

 

But I love roleplaying and giving it up would just crush me.

 

Oh, and finding new players isn't really an option for me...    I'm not great face to face with strangers. I'm weird like that  ;)

 

Thanks for all the responses though! Much appreciated!  :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now that I think about it, one very easy to implement house rule if one's players are being abusive about Move's ability to disarm, especially on a major adversary like a Nemesis...

 

Simply allow the target to flip a Destiny Point to say "nope, not happening" with the effect lasting for the rest of the encounter (which tends to only be a few rounds anyway).  You as the GM are spending a resource (a Dark Side Destiny Point) in order to do this rather than just exercising GM fiat.

 

Or, simply give them a back-up weapon, such as a blaster pistol of the NPC's preferred variety with the Filed Front Sight attachment (which grants Quick Draw as an innate talent).  Force-user disarms them one weapon, the NPC used an Incidental to fast-draw another (which can be justified if they are aware the PC tends to use this particular tactic) and then shoots the Force-user.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now that I think about it, one very easy to implement house rule if one's players are being abusive about Move's ability to disarm, especially on a major adversary like a Nemesis...

 

Simply allow the target to flip a Destiny Point to say "nope, not happening" with the effect lasting for the rest of the encounter (which tends to only be a few rounds anyway).  You as the GM are spending a resource (a Dark Side Destiny Point) in order to do this rather than just exercising GM fiat.

 

Or, simply give them a back-up weapon, such as a blaster pistol of the NPC's preferred variety with the Filed Front Sight attachment (which grants Quick Draw as an innate talent).  Force-user disarms them one weapon, the NPC used an Incidental to fast-draw another (which can be justified if they are aware the PC tends to use this particular tactic) and then shoots the Force-user.

 

Actually, I'm really liking the Destiny flip idea. I could even see that being implemented in the F&D book. Simply, yet undeniably effective.

 

Thanks DM!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another idea is to allow force users a save based on their force rating, keeps force users like Vader and luke from just Pulling each others sabers back and forth.

Any time a force user is subjected to a force power, he can, as an incidental roll his undedicated force rating, if he scores more pips then the powers user spent to activate it, he blocks the power (kind of a "counterspell" if you will)

 

T

 

Edit, would work on stuff like influence also. It should be harder to effect a force user with such things, otherwise vader would just have used influence to convince luke to hand over his saber and join him, by the time the power wore off it would've been to late.

Edited by khaine1969

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It should be harder to effect a force user with such things, otherwise vader would just have used influence to convince luke to hand over his saber and join him, by the time the power wore off it would've been to late.

 

Keep in mind that having a 'brainwashed' Luke on hand didn't serve *either* the Emperor's purposes *or* Vader's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, you don't know the half of it  <_<

 

That's my main worry with any games I play. At the end of the day I've been RPing with these guys for over 20 years. I know how they think. I'm always the GM/DM/Storyteller/Referee/etc cos I'm the only mug that spends money buying books and the only mug that is willing to put in the time to make adventures.

 

But I love roleplaying and giving it up would just crush me.

 

Oh, and finding new players isn't really an option for me...    I'm not great face to face with strangers. I'm weird like that  ;)

 

Thanks for all the responses though! Much appreciated!  :D

 

 

Hahaha. your group sounds just like mine. I have GM'ed for my group for 25 years and they (well at least some of them) try their best to exploit every loophole they can. It can be a bit disheartening at times, but i'm so used to it by now that I dont really mind.

 

If something in the rules doesnt feel right, change it. The GM makes the rules, but usually it pays to listen to the players. Also places like this is a fountain of great suggestions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, you don't know the half of it  <_<

 

That's my main worry with any games I play. At the end of the day I've been RPing with these guys for over 20 years. I know how they think. I'm always the GM/DM/Storyteller/Referee/etc cos I'm the only mug that spends money buying books and the only mug that is willing to put in the time to make adventures.

 

But I love roleplaying and giving it up would just crush me.

 

Oh, and finding new players isn't really an option for me...    I'm not great face to face with strangers. I'm weird like that  ;)

 

Thanks for all the responses though! Much appreciated!  :D

 

 

Hahaha. your group sounds just like mine. I have GM'ed for my group for 25 years and they (well at least some of them) try their best to exploit every loophole they can. It can be a bit disheartening at times, but i'm so used to it by now that I dont really mind.

 

If something in the rules doesnt feel right, change it. The GM makes the rules, but usually it pays to listen to the players. Also places like this is a fountain of great suggestions.

 

 

Ah, a kindred spirit!

 

You're right, this forum and most of those who inhabit it are awesome. I check on here multiple times a day to see what tasty morsels I can scavenge for my own games/sanity.  :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Necrothread!!!!

 

Anyways, I finally got my campaign started. I began with a mission to retrieve and "artefact" for a Hutt collector. The session was very enjoyable, but to cut a long story short they now have the artefact and will soon be heading back to the Hutt with it.

 

But as the item is in a sealed coded box, little do they know that the item is in fact a Lightsaber. Now, before they can get back to the Hutt, they will be confronted by a mysterious stranger who will offer them 2000 credits for the item. He will seem quite desperate to get hold of it. If they accept, they gain the anger of the Huttt, but also get 2000 credits! But if they refuse to sell it to the man...     they find out he's actually a Jedi and wants his saber back. He stays polite and pacifistic to begin with but he's on the edge (on the "turn" as it were).

 

So my above dilemma comes into play but in reverse!

 

If they refuse to trade with him (highly likely), I was going to have the Jedi use Move Object to first steal their weapons (at Force 3 this shouldn't be a problem - using the Forsaken Jedi stats in the Adversary section). Then, if they insist on trying to oppose him, he will force move the item into his hands and leave via the roof tops with a Force Leap.

 

My dilemma now is:   Although I am staying true to the rules of Force Move, I feel I am taking choice away from the players and they may resent me for it (it has happened before in a session of Rogue Trader). Am I doing the right thing or would you do it differently? I am thinking that, once the Jedi takes the box, but before he retreats, he tosses them the 2000 credit chip with a "Thanks guys" comment anyway to take some of the sting out of it, but I have a feeling one of the players may still be upset about losing the box...

 

Any ideas?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that rather than having a scene where he steals it right out from their hands in a flashy Force-show sort of way (a scene which can go bad - dice rolls are not predictable), you could have him sneak in and steal it when they are otherwise distracted. If the players discover that the guys pulling the distraction were paid 2,000 credits by a guy matching the description of the Jedi, so much the better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2000 credits for a Hutt Betrayal? That ain't nothin... people gotta buy ships, upgrades, gotta pay back their dues... I'd make it 6000 minimum, if there was only 1 player. (shrug)

 

But as for the Jedi just basically dominating your party, dude, sith happens. Sometimes, the death star cometh and bloweth up your home planet. Ain't nothin you can do about it. At least this guy isn't doing a TPK, and he's even tipping them. Still, some players understand that you're trying to drive a story, and some players will be very sour... I know one player who would immediately start getting force move, and then try to pull off what you just did, and see if you allowed it or if you saw yourself as an exception.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have two players, one of which seems to be always happy no matter what happens. He's here for the ride and loves every minute of it. The other player is more of a "I must win no matter the cost!" kinda guy who would probably throw a tantrum if I did the above plan.

 

Maybe I could up the payoff to 5000...   half the cost of the saber. That may be more appreciated.

 

As to stealing it by causing a distraction, that could work though they would then probably not get the cash in exchange (unless the Jedi were so kind as to leave a Credit Chip in it's place  :D

 

I'll have another think about it and see what I come up with. I got 3 days to figure it out before game-night anyways.

 

Thanks for the tips all!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

As to stealing it by causing a distraction, that could work though they would then probably not get the cash in exchange (unless the Jedi were so kind as to leave a Credit Chip in it's place  :D

They could get the cash secondhand through the guys that were hired to be the distraction (extorting money from defeated foes is almost as common as looting bodies). Depending on what gear those guys had, the PCs might end up with more or less than the amount offered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The force and destiny book covers this on page 283. Last paragraph of the "Resisting Force Powers" sidebar. Force users would typically use discipline as an opposed check where a non force user would use athletics.

Which also says only important NPCs and PCs can do this. Everyone else does not get to resist. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there no defence against the Force Users ability to disarm someone with the Move power?

 

If not then surely Force User duals (or any fights for that matter) will just deteriorate into whoever has initiative just disarming their opponent, even though this wasn't seen in the films.

 

I guess this could be stretched out to all Force powers...  do Force Users get no defence at all against a power used on them by someone else?

 

Have I missed something in the rules?

I have a house rule where any force user has innate force resistance, so when using a force power on a force user, both roll and if defender has the same or more pips, he resists. None force users might get to roll 1-2 force dice, pips are halved and they can only choose light side pips.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Is there no defence against the Force Users ability to disarm someone with the Move power?

 

If not then surely Force User duals (or any fights for that matter) will just deteriorate into whoever has initiative just disarming their opponent, even though this wasn't seen in the films.

 

I guess this could be stretched out to all Force powers...  do Force Users get no defence at all against a power used on them by someone else?

 

Have I missed something in the rules?

I have a house rule where any force user has innate force resistance, so when using a force power on a force user, both roll and if defender has the same or more pips, he resists. None force users might get to roll 1-2 force dice, pips are halved and they can only choose light side pips.

 

or you could just use raw...force users tend to have discipline. which means they will tend to be able to resist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Daeglan, on 05 Oct 2015 - 4:29 PM, said:

 

JaceBraddock, on 05 Oct 2015 - 1:40 PM, said:

The force and destiny book covers this on page 283. Last paragraph of the "Resisting Force Powers" sidebar. Force users would typically use discipline as an opposed check where a non force user would use athletics.

Which also says only important NPCs and PCs can do this. Everyone else does not get to resist. 

 

I use it for everyone.  A common rival should have the same chance as his Nemésis boss to prevent being disarming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...