Jan Ors Buffing Cluster Missile Attack Dice

[Endgame124 59]

If Jan Ors picks a ship with cluster missiles to gain the extra attack die, does that apply to both cluster missile attacks?

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

I would say no, but I think you would have the option of stressing her and adding the die to either of the two rolls.

I think it's been fairly well established (of course now I can't remember where or for what) that unless it specifies it lasts all round (Marksmanship, Expose, etc), it happens once and then expires.  And since she'd be stressed after adding a die to one roll, she wouldn't be able to stress and add a die to the second one.

[nimdabew 156]

Jan Ors: When another friendly ship at Range 1-2 is attacking, if you have no stress tokens, you may receive one stress token to allow that ship to roll 1 additional attack die.

 

Cluster Missiles: Attack (Target Lock): Spend your target lock and discard this card to perform this attack twice.

 

You are performing two separate attacks... though there is a small argument to be made that the second attack is based off the FIRST attack and it says to perform that attack twice. If the first attack is 4 dice, then the second attack could also be 4 dice. I would still say no though. That thought just ran across my mind while typing this post.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Cluster Missiles make two separate attacks.  Effects which modify one don't automatically modify the other.  I usually think about Stealth Device for this - if you target a ship with Stealth and hit it with the first attack, is the +1 Agility still in effect for the second attack just because it was for the first?

 

Each attack is independent, with independent effects and modifiers.

[nimdabew 156]

Cluster Missiles make two separate attacks.  Effects which modify one don't automatically modify the other.  I usually think about Stealth Device for this - if you target a ship with Stealth and hit it with the first attack, is the +1 Agility still in effect for the second attack just because it was for the first?

 

Each attack is independent, with independent effects and modifiers.

This is why cluster missiles suck. A TL+Focus has less damage potential than with a TL+Focus on a concussion missile IIRC. if the card read something along the lines of "if you spend a focus token on one attack, it modifies the second attack as well" then they would be very worth their points cost. Right now, they are just 'meh'

[Forensicus 883]

 

Cluster Missiles make two separate attacks.  Effects which modify one don't automatically modify the other.  I usually think about Stealth Device for this - if you target a ship with Stealth and hit it with the first attack, is the +1 Agility still in effect for the second attack just because it was for the first?

 

Each attack is independent, with independent effects and modifiers.

This is why cluster missiles suck. A TL+Focus has less damage potential than with a TL+Focus on a concussion missile IIRC. if the card read something along the lines of "if you spend a focus token on one attack, it modifies the second attack as well" then they would be very worth their points cost. Right now, they are just 'meh'

 

That's also why I prefer running CM along with Marksmanship on Maarek Stele og even Kath Scarlet. Can really hurt Agility 1 ships

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Yeah they seem cool, but unless you use something that will bolster your attack for the entire round somehow, I believe you only modify one roll or the other with something like a regular focus token or target lock.

[Ken at Sunrise 2,065]

That's also why I prefer running CM along with Marksmanship on Maarek Stele og even Kath Scarlet. Can really hurt Agility 1 ships

 

But I've heard people rag on Maarek Stele.  After he fires his cluster concussion missile is he viable for 30 points?  33 with stealth.

 

[Edited - changed cluster to concussion]

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken at Sunrise

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

 

That's also why I prefer running CM along with Marksmanship on Maarek Stele og even Kath Scarlet. Can really hurt Agility 1 ships

 

But I've heard people rag on Maarek Stele.  After he fires his cluster concussion missile is he viable for 30 points?  33 with stealth.

 

[Edited - changed cluster to concussion]

 

 

He's 27 points, 30 with stealth, so where are the other 3 going?

[nimdabew 156]

 

 

That's also why I prefer running CM along with Marksmanship on Maarek Stele og even Kath Scarlet. Can really hurt Agility 1 ships

 

But I've heard people rag on Maarek Stele.  After he fires his cluster concussion missile is he viable for 30 points?  33 with stealth.

 

[Edited - changed cluster to concussion]

 

 

He's 27 points, 30 with stealth, so where are the other 3 going?

 

Marksmenship...

[Ken at Sunrise 2,065]

[Deleted]

 

Oops nimdabew already answered the question.

My question still stands though.  Is he viable?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken at Sunrise

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

To answer your actual question, points aside, I guess in my opinion I'd say "probably not?"  I mean that's two cheap swarm TIEs - probably 3 if you factor in stealth and an elite skill - the natural one for him would probably be Marksmanship, for the added chance of landing a crit and triggering his ability.

 

Plus the Advanced is just kind of maligned anyway.  They're fairly pricey.  I don't have the maneuver dials handy, but I'd be shocked if it handles as well as a regular TIE, let alone an Interceptor.  The shield is nice but not having the upgraded Interceptor guns hurts.  About the only time you tend to ever see an Advanced get play is when someone takes Darth Vader for the bonus action.

 

Maarek's got a fairly nasty ability - if he lands a hit he's got a good chance of picking one that hits where it hurts the most - but even with Marksmanship, you're banking on rolling 1 or more eyeballs on 2 dice (3 at range 1), and then not being able to evade or otherwise counter that.  Shields?  Wasted.  Evaded?  Wasted.  And even if you get a target lock the prior round, you're still only rerolling two dice most of the time, hoping for an eyeball or two.  Or a regular crit, obviously, but if you use marksmanship you kind of WANT to roll an eyeball so that you feel like the action didn't go to waste.   

 

So it's a matter of taste, but it seems fairly clear that most people's taste runs fast the opposite direction of the Advanced, the occasion Vader notwithstanding.  I enjoy them, and his ability is nasty when it works, but the Empire generally favors the Josef Stalin method of squad building, and it's hard for a lot of players to justify his inclusion when you could probably squeeze two NAMED TIE pilots in for the points of him + upgrade + Elite skill + possibly a missile (let alone possibly THREE cheap generic TIEs).

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

No worries - I answered my two cents, assuming that's what he was referring to.  Apologies if that was made implicit and I just missed seeing it.

 

Looking at it another way - if you're talking 30, 33 points with stealth, that's a full 1/3 of your squad wrapped up in one ship.  A Rebel player is going to take a good hard look at whether his fighter is worth that kind of investment in his squad list.  Most Imperial players are going to take one look and go into sticker shock.

Edited August 28, 2013 by CrookedWookie

[nimdabew 156]

I agree. 3 academy pilots is much better than Maarek in the long run.

[TheKestrel 63]

HOWEVER, I think wave 3 might introduce at least some incentive to use him, since pairing him with Colonel Jendon or Captain Jonus (or both) can significantly increase his missile's punch.

Worth it? Still probably not. I think all TIE Advanced probably need to come down in cost a couple points, but hey.

[Forensicus 883]

I would say that it should/would work on both attacks based on the following "reasoning":

1) The Cluster Missile card says "...to perform THIS attack twice" so even though you roll twice it is denoted as 1 attack (IMO). I believe that this is done the way it is (rolling 2 times) to illustrate the way the missiles "work"

2) MM works on BOTH attacks (including the [Focus] to [Crit] on the first [Focus] each time)

3) Krassis's reroll would work on both rolls

Having said that, then it is still true that neither you nor the defending ship can use any kind of token ([Focus] or [Evade]) twice but this is slightly beside the point.

But either way: any ship carrying missiles/thorps WILL be an expensive vessel and thus become an interesting target. With Maarek Stele you are getting 2 Shields & a higher PS than the average TIE-jockey

[Ken at Sunrise 2,065]

I'm going with the side that says no, the additional die is only applied once.  Mainly because of the wording.  Haha we read the same thing and get two differing ideas on what it means; that's part of what we're here for.  I see "perform this attack twice" as two attacks.  This attack is repeated.  It is done twice so it is not a single attack where you roll the dice determine that out come and roll again. Jan would therefore have a stress from the first attack.

 

Marksmanship may not be the best counter example because it explicitly states "When attacking this round" emphasis mine.  I'm not following your Krassis logic, sorry???

 

The only  logic I might see is in Jan's wording "When another friendly ship [...] is attacking.  That could be meant to imply  attacking this round.  Could be though not explicitly stated.

 

So... If I had to pick an interpretation I'd go with the additional die is only applied once.

 

Just my two cents.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

I would say that it should/would work on both attacks based on the following "reasoning":1) The Cluster Missile card says "...to perform THIS attack twice" so even though you roll twice it is denoted as 1 attack (IMO). I believe that this is done the way it is (rolling 2 times) to illustrate the way the missiles "work"2) MM works on BOTH attacks (including the [Focus] to [Crit] on the first [Focus] each time)3) Krassis's reroll would work on both rollsHaving said that, then it is still true that neither you nor the defending ship can use any kind of token ([Focus] or [Evade]) twice but this is slightly beside the point. But either way: any ship carrying missiles/thorps WILL be an expensive vessel and thus become an interesting target. With Maarek Stele you are getting 2 Shields & a higher PS than the average TIE-jockey

I think you hit on one of the strongest arguments AGAINST it here, to be honest. If its the same attack, and Jan's ability affects it both times, why *wouldn't* a single focus or evade spent stay in play and affect both rolls? By that logic it's still the same attack, right?

Where I think people get confused is the 'this attack twice' but. It's classic goofy FFG wording. The FAQ defines the steps of an attack pretty clearly - I'll clarify when I have them in front of me. But the way it seems its meant to be read is you're making the same type of attack (the missile), twice. Not that they're literally both the same attack.

Put another way, again clearer when I grab my rules, you're walking through the steps two distinct times: roll attack dice, modify attack dice, roll defense dice, modify defense dice, compare results. Two attacks on the same target using the same weapon. If something affects you the whole round, it does both. If it affects one roll, it doesn't carry into the next attack.

If Jan uses her ability, she takes a stress token right then. You resolve attack #1, begin attack 2. After you roll the dice you get to the modify dice step. You want to use Jan. She now has a stress token, which prevents her ability from taking effect, There's no way she wouldn't take a stress token immediately on attack one, and thus have it when checking to see if she qualifies for dice modification during that step of attack two.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

I'm going with the side that says no, the additional die is only applied once.  Mainly because of the wording.  Haha we read the same thing and get two differing ideas on what it means; that's part of what we're here for.  I see "perform this attack twice" as two attacks.  This attack is repeated.  It is done twice so it is not a single attack where you roll the dice determine that out come and roll again. Jan would therefore have a stress from the first attack.

 

Marksmanship may not be the best counter example because it explicitly states "When attacking this round" emphasis mine.  I'm not following your Krassis logic, sorry???

 

The only  logic I might see is in Jan's wording "When another friendly ship [...] is attacking.  That could be meant to imply  attacking this round.  Could be though not explicitly stated.

So... If I had to pick an interpretation I'd go with the additional die is only applied once.

 

Just my two cents.

You're close here - her ability does, absolutely, last all round, any time any friendly ship is attacking. The catch is, once she USES IT she takes a stress token. So the next attack after you decide to use her, you get to the part about 'if she does not have a stress token...' and it shuts her down. That's what happens with cluster missiles - two attacks on the same target using the same weapon on either one.

Basically the TRIGGER phrase for her ability kicks on any time an ally attacks. But halfway through it does a stress check to see if she meets the CONDITION necessary for her ability use - having no stress tokens. It's kind of a if/then bit of programming.

[KineticOperator 2,534]

First of all, I am just putting this out for something to think about.  I am not really arguing for it, just wanting to put it out there for consideration.

 

Jan Ors may be able to add a die to both attacks.  The reason as suggested by Forensicus is that the single attack is being performed twice, and she adds a die to the attack.

 

The difference between Jan Ors' ability and most abilities is that her ability is used at the very beginning just like Cluster Missiles.  When firing Cluster Missiles the first step, target declaration, is only done once then the rest of the combat phase is resolved twice.  Other abilities are used during the modification step of the attack phase.  Abilities only work once (ie. you can't use Krassis' reroll ability to reroll 1 die at a time until you have rerolled everything), most abilities just do their thing during one modification step and that is it.  Obviously, abilities that last the whole round like Marksman would be an exception.

 

Does this seem like a solid line of reasoning?  It seems possible at least, if not likely, since by its nature (adding a die to roll) Jan Ors' ability would be much more akin to secondary weapon effects like the Cluster Missile itself due to its adding a die to attack with rather than simply allowing rerolls or modifications of dice.

Edited August 30, 2013 by KineticOperator

[Ken at Sunrise 2,065]

Basically the TRIGGER phrase for her ability kicks on any time an ally attacks. But halfway through it does a stress check to see if she meets the CONDITION necessary for her ability use - having no stress tokens. It's kind of a if/then bit of programming.

 

 

Argh... back to timing issue, haha...

 

 

First of all, I am just putting this out for something to consider.  I am not really arguing for it, just wanting to put it out there for consideration.

 

Jan Ors may be able to add a die to both attacks.  The reason as suggested by Forensicus is that the single attack is being performed twice, and she adds a die to the attack.

 

The difference between Jan Ors' ability and most abilities is that her ability is used at the very beginning just like Cluster Missiles.  When firing Cluster Missiles the first step, target declaration, is only done once then the rest of the combat phase is resolved twice.  Other abilities are used during the modification step of the attack phase.  Abilities only work once (ie. you can't use Krassis' reroll ability to reroll 1 die at a time until you have rerolled everything), most abilities just do their thing during one modification step and that is it.  Obviously, abilities that last the whole round like Marksman would be an exception.

 

Does this seem like a solid line of reasoning?  It seems possible at least, if not likely, since by its nature (adding a die to roll) Jan Ors' ability would be much more akin to secondary weapon effects like the Cluster Missile itself due to its adding a die to attack with rather than simply allowing rerolls or modifications of dice.

 

In my poorly worded post that is kind of what I was eluding too.  IF it could be used then it is because it is part of a single attack done twice rather than two separate attacks.  But if it worked this way wouldn't Jan get a second stress token which messes up this whole thought process?

[KineticOperator 2,534]

Why would she do that?  She only adds the attack die once.  Her "step" only occurs one time, as opposed to abilities that have to be activated during the modification step.  Those abilities have 2 separate modification steps to deal with, she only has 1 attack to deal with.

[Buhallin 4,563]

"When a friendly ship is attacking..."

 

Jan's ability lasts for the duration of the attack.  It actually is available for both attacks, as long as she isn't stressed - but if you use it on the first, you're stressed and can't use it on the second.  If you had some way to keep Jan from actually getting the stress (say some cross-faction game where she was near Yorr) then you could certainly use it on both.

 

Both attacks are independent - you finish the first one before starting the second.  This is in the FAQ.  So if you activate Jan's ability on the first, it expires when the attack completes.

 

Marksmanship and Krassis work differently because there is nothing keeping them to a once-per-turn use the way there is wit Jan.  If Krassis required you to take a stress or spend a token to use his ability, then it would function the same as Jan.

 

There are a host of other abilities which we know treat the attacks as distinct and independent - most explicitly the Gunner, Marksmanship, and tokens.  If the Clusters were one "attack" these would function differently.  For example, if the Clusters were all one "attack" that just involved multiple dice rolls, then the Gunner would only be able to trigger once (and probably require both attacks to miss completely in order to do so).

[KineticOperator 2,534]

Buhallin and Ken -

 

Agreed on all accounts, especially the part about the rulings we have so far treating them as two completely independent attacks.  I can see that a case might be made for the mechanism I was suggesting, but it certainly fails when put up against the precedents we have so far.  It would also set the table for some really wonky interactions.

 

I was just playing a little devils' advocate, it helps to make sure we have a vigorous understanding of the way the rule works.  

Edited August 30, 2013 by KineticOperator

[Ken at Sunrise 2,065]

I like the devil's advocate approach.  Nothing wrong with it.  My main hang up are these series of topics in  FAQ which seems to address it.

 

Q: If a ship using Cluster Missiles hits with the first attack, but then misses with the second attack, can he still use Gunner/Luke Skywalker even though the first attack hit?

A: Yes. Each attack granted by Cluster Missiles is distinct, so either attack can trigger Gunner/Luke Skywalker.

 

Q: If a ship using Cluster Missiles misses with the first attack and then triggers Gunner/Luke Skywalker, can it still perform the remaining attack granted by Cluster Missiles?

A: No.

 

I added the emphasis.

 

Gunner, like Jan, lasts the entire round, turn, etc. also.  Gunner has the qualifier 'You cannot preform another attack this round' and Jan as the qualifier of the stress token.

 

Sigh... finally we all agree on something. 

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken at Sunrise