Han and a Gunner?

[dbmeboy 807]

You can always give him Veteran Instincts instead of Marksmanship and he'll shoot first much more often :-)

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

^^^True dat.

[Gullwind 560]

Saw a youtube video describing how Lucas was supposedly going to make some more changes for the Blu-ray release.

 

You see the Death Star approaching Alderaan, and suddenly a huge laser bolt erupts from the planet and streaks past the Death Star.

 

Alderaan shot first!!!

[cmdrsils 9]

But Alderaan is peaceful! They have no weapons!

[Caedus 9]

You can always give him Veteran Instincts instead of Marksmanship and he'll shoot first much more often :-)

Roark Garnet + Han guarantees he shoots first! (So far...)

[Caedus 9]

As I was writing the post, a lot of the conclusions we seem to be reaching we're coming to mind, but it is good to hear it as discussions from others.

I'm definitely sold on adding a Gunner and Marksmanship (ie "Death Star Focus") to a YT, and will just leave the choice of whether to take Han or not up to points. In a YT, you've got enough shields and hull to tough it out even if you don't fire the first shot (unlike some Ties- recalling Turr Phenir + stealth device, who I was so looking forward to using for the first time, getting one- shotted by Wedge).

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

True, although the real advantage of Roark is that he can take someone with a good weapon but a low PS who normally WOULDN'T get to shoot first, and let them potshot a higher PS target. PS2 B-wing with a heavy laser getting the draw on Fel, or a PS2 Y-wing carrying an advanced protorp being guaranteed to unleash it into Boba Fett before he can take you out. There's something to be said for the rich getting richer, but look at it this way.

Give Roark to Han as a wingman, that's 19 points invested - pre-upgrades - to bump Han 3 skill ranks. You could give him Veteran Instincts for 1 point and bump him to 11 for 18 points less. Obviously you were mostly joking but Roark does give a lot more bang for his buck when he's jumping PS1-2 pilots up 10+ skill levels to unleash their heavy ordinance on the big boys, paying back their own point cost and then some.

Why jump Han up from the top 5% to the top 1% when you can jump some rookie pilot with a missile or torpedo up from the bottom 90% to the top 1% and ensure they survive long enough to kill something two or three times their own point value. =^D

[Caedus 9]

I was joking, but that is still a great point! Bumping up your ordinance carriers to nuke some of your enemies is a great plan!

Sounds like a great way to bum out someone who was flying a Han/Gunner/Marksmanship combo! ;-)

[Millennium Falsehood 1,684]

Man, that little HWK-290 is sounding better all the time!

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

I know you were joking, Caedus, I was just trying to kind of have some fun by treating it as though it was a serious question - because there actually IS a strong argument for doing it the way I mentioned and getting the most for your money.  I didn't misunderstand that you had tongue firmly in cheek.  

[Profty 1]

Just ran Han in a 60 pt tourney with Chewie,Luke, and Marksmanship.  Worked brilliantly.  Only mishap was in a Han v. Han mirror match where we double KO'd each other.  The other games were less competitive.  At first I thought I may have had too many redundancies but there were points in each game where i had to use all of my rerolls.  Nothing better than the look on your opponents face when a 3 blanks roll, then 2 blanks and an eye roll suddenly become 3 crits for the kill.  

[Caedus 9]

I know you were joking, Caedus, I was just trying to kind of have some fun by treating it as though it was a serious question - because there actually IS a strong argument for doing it the way I mentioned and getting the most for your money.  I didn't misunderstand that you had tongue firmly in cheek.  

And I appreciate that you then still considered the serious side and made this conversation all the richer!

[Overmanwarrior 13]

 

So my understanding of the Han Solo and Gunner/Luke Skywalker interaction is that the Gunner allows a second attack if the first misses, and Han can choose to reroll all dice in either (or both) of these attacks (except for those dice which have already been rolled).

Firstly is this right?

And following on from that, is there a whole lot of point putting a Gunner on Han? I've been sold on the usefulness of the gunner (ie in clearing away the defender's evades and focus tokens with th first attack), but isn't it better 'value' on one of the other Falcon pilots as Han already gives you a second chance of a better roll?

And finally, does Marksmanship then tip the balance back in the favour of Han with the gunner, in order to maximise those focuses and crits?

 

You should look at it this way:

1. Han (with Marksmanship) shoots first on Range 2 (as always   ) and he rolls 2 x [blank] and just 1 [Hit] so he chooses to reroll all. He then rolls [Hit] , [blank] and [Focus] and uses Marksmanship to change the [Focus] to a [Crit]. Final result [Hit], [blank] and [Crit]
2. The Defender Rolls 1 [Evade] and has 1 [Evade] token which he spends, so the attack misses
3. Now you can/may (should) use the Gunner to perform a second Primary weapon attack. 
4. The Gunner rolls 3 [blanks], and thus Han chooses to re-roll all dices and rolls [Focus], [Focus] and [Crit], and then uses Marksmanship to the final result is now 2 x [Crit] and 1 [Hit]

5. The defender (having spent the [Evade] token has to rely on the dices and rolls 2 [blanks] so the net result is        2 x [Crit] and 1 [Hit]

 

 

I don't know if this is the BEST example out there, but you can see or get the idea that having to re roll ALL dices doesn't necesarily mean that you will hit anything (I know you didn't think so   ) so having a Gunner or Luke ready isn't a totally bad idea. Even with a Target Lock that allows you to re roll the number of dices of your choosing it still feels GOOOOOOD having a backup in the Gunner, sort of like having Howlrunner nearby 

 

Hope you found it useful?

 

May The Force be with you.....

 

That's a great example, however, isn't it Luke doing the shooting and not Han?  Why would Luke shoot again, other than the build is on Han's card?

[Caedus 9]

Overmanwarrior,

Both "Han" and "Luke" allow "you" (the specific ship) to do their specific actions. As far as the game is concerned, we don't care who is 'physically' (?!) manning the gun, it is still the ship, HAN's ship which is making the attacks. And so it is common to call the Ship "Han" (that is "you" in this instance) and ignore Luke being in there except for allowing his ability.

If that makes sense...

[Overmanwarrior 13]

Overmanwarrior,

Both "Han" and "Luke" allow "you" (the specific ship) to do their specific actions. As far as the game is concerned, we don't care who is 'physically' (?!) manning the gun, it is still the ship, HAN's ship which is making the attacks. And so it is common to call the Ship "Han" (that is "you" in this instance) and ignore Luke being in there except for allowing his ability.

If that makes sense...

Thanks, it does.  It just seems too good to be true in this case.  I'll take an advantage like that with a bulky freighter that has almost no evasion. 

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

It's just all about redundancy. Giving each roll of the dice the best possible odds of rolling in your favor. The reason it's not 'too good to be true' is the sticker price. Han + Gunner can be a powerful combo - rarely are you going to flat out miss - but that's well over 1/2 your 100pt squad. And it's still only a single 3-4 dice attack, depending on range.

An Imperial player will cringe at that investment when considering they could easily buy 4 Academy TIEs, bringing a combined 8-12 attack dice, for that same cost. You're getting what you pay for - but you're paying a LOT.

[Overmanwarrior 13]

It's just all about redundancy. Giving each roll of the dice the best possible odds of rolling in your favor. The reason it's not 'too good to be true' is the sticker price. Han + Gunner can be a powerful combo - rarely are you going to flat out miss - but that's well over 1/2 your 100pt squad. And it's still only a single 3-4 dice attack, depending on range.

An Imperial player will cringe at that investment when considering they could easily buy 4 Academy TIEs, bringing a combined 8-12 attack dice, for that same cost. You're getting what you pay for - but you're paying a LOT.

Great point!  In order for that set up to work those 4 TIEs would have to be reduced quickly at the start of a game.  If they aren't, it would take a lot more than lucky rolls of the dice to avoid complete distruction.  I can see why the TIE swarm is such an attractive approach. 

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

 

It's just all about redundancy. Giving each roll of the dice the best possible odds of rolling in your favor. The reason it's not 'too good to be true' is the sticker price. Han + Gunner can be a powerful combo - rarely are you going to flat out miss - but that's well over 1/2 your 100pt squad. And it's still only a single 3-4 dice attack, depending on range.

An Imperial player will cringe at that investment when considering they could easily buy 4 Academy TIEs, bringing a combined 8-12 attack dice, for that same cost. You're getting what you pay for - but you're paying a LOT.

Great point!  In order for that set up to work those 4 TIEs would have to be reduced quickly at the start of a game.  If they aren't, it would take a lot more than lucky rolls of the dice to avoid complete distruction.  I can see why the TIE swarm is such an attractive approach. 

 

 

Especially once you factor in TIEs that only cost a handful of points more than an AP.  You get guys like Backstabber, Mauler, etc, in there, Howlrunner for support, and assuming you can steer a TIE in for a flank shot on a YT, the number of dice some of them roll goes from a pretty 'meh' 2 dice to 4 or so in a hurry.

Backstabber and Mauler on a range 1 flank shot will roll 4 dice each.  Those two plus Howlrunner are only 51 points pre-upgrades - the exact same as Han + Gunner.  But for that cost, where he's rolling 4 dice at range 1, with a couple of chances to reroll, the TIEs are rolling ELEVEN dice between them if they position themselves right, with Howlrunner granting them [her two wingmen] a free roll on 1 attack die each.  Assume they each focused, and the YT is in for a world of hurt, and that's only 3 TIEs and half the points the Imp can run on his list.

Edited September 4, 2013 by CrookedWookie

[Overmanwarrior 13]

 

 

It's just all about redundancy. Giving each roll of the dice the best possible odds of rolling in your favor. The reason it's not 'too good to be true' is the sticker price. Han + Gunner can be a powerful combo - rarely are you going to flat out miss - but that's well over 1/2 your 100pt squad. And it's still only a single 3-4 dice attack, depending on range.

An Imperial player will cringe at that investment when considering they could easily buy 4 Academy TIEs, bringing a combined 8-12 attack dice, for that same cost. You're getting what you pay for - but you're paying a LOT.

Great point!  In order for that set up to work those 4 TIEs would have to be reduced quickly at the start of a game.  If they aren't, it would take a lot more than lucky rolls of the dice to avoid complete distruction.  I can see why the TIE swarm is such an attractive approach. 

 

 

Especially once you factor in TIEs that only cost a handful of points more than an AP.  You get guys like Backstabber, Mauler, etc, in there, Howlrunner for support, and assuming you can steer a TIE in for a flank shot on a YT, the number of dice some of them roll goes from a pretty 'meh' 2 dice to 4 or so in a hurry.

 

A serious challenge indeed! 

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

And that's why people who fly TIE swarms are terrible, terrible human beings.  

[Overmanwarrior 13]

And that's why people who fly TIE swarms are terrible, terrible human beings.  

 

Winning is all that matters! 

 

Actually, the Falcon build I'm using is 69 points.  LOL  Its purely sentimental, and is hard to win with, but I sure do love it.  But, I have not been using Han's second roll on the gunner either. 

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

IMO, Imperail TIE swarms were so popular during Wave 1, that developers tried to make them less attractive by adding some special powers and upgrades in Wave 2. Most notable examples are the Gunner/Luke and Assault Missiles.

 

Gunner tried to make sure that each shot counted against swarms of small agile ships, and AMs were obviously made to discourage tight formations.

 

However, ifk you ask me, gunner ended to be 'too effective', specially on named YT-1300s. Flying with few small ships against a Falcon + gunner, specially if it also equips Marksmanship, suddenly became very hard. Versus a Firespray, at least you have the chance to dodge by eluding fire arcs, but against a YT-1300 you had nowhere to hide. And even if it, at the end, counts as a single attack, the matter of fact is that its target has to cancel the results of 2 whole consecutive attacks to flee unscathed.

 

Against such raw firepower, you have to fly exceptionally well (and have abundant doses of luck), to hold your ground with few 'ace' ships. Even Soontir with PtL and Stealth won't last many shots against it.

 

The best defense against a YT-gunner ended to be either using very durable ships (which an imperial player doesn't have in abundance), or overwhelming it with more and more TIEs, ironically, using the very same tactic that the gunner aspired to counter in first place.

 

Now again, in Wave 3, new anti-swarm measures are being introduced. Auto-Blaster directly negates the main defense of TIEs, and 'Flight instructor' could be easily renamed as 'Anti-Swarm instructor'. We'll see if this time these upgrades promote less usage of swarms, which IMO, have been the most succesful imperial build since release.

 

Of course all of those are personal opinions, and you are more than welcome to disagree.

[Ken at Sunrise 2,065]

How does all named TIE pilots work as a build?

• Howlrunner
• Mauler Mithel
• Backstabber
• Dark Curse
• Night Beast
• Winged Gundark

First the PS is from 5 to 8 so that makes the actually swarm harder BUT!!!

They all have skills.

The lowest PS is 5.

Their range 1 or range 1 and flank attack is awesome.

There are still 6 (six) pilots.

And you have three point left over for????

 

[KineticOperator 2,534]

It works OK, because at the end of the day you still have 6 TIEs, which is a pretty good list all by itself, plus some skills.  On the other hand, it has almost zero synergy, so it isn't as effective as other 6 TIE swarms can be.  You will win some games just because you have enough adequate ships that if you fly them well you can see some success, but soon enough you will be making changes that will improve it.

[Ken at Sunrise 2,065]

It works OK, because at the end of the day you still have 6 TIEs, which is a pretty good list all by itself, plus some skills.  On the other hand, it has almost zero synergy, so it isn't as effective as other 6 TIE swarms can be.  You will win some games just because you have enough adequate ships that if you fly them well you can see some success, but soon enough you will be making changes that will improve it.

 

Like?  Changes to this squad or just going with an 8 ship build (which I heard is really hard to fly).