Han and a Gunner?

[Caedus 9]

So my understanding of the Han Solo and Gunner/Luke Skywalker interaction is that the Gunner allows a second attack if the first misses, and Han can choose to reroll all dice in either (or both) of these attacks (except for those dice which have already been rolled).

Firstly is this right?

And following on from that, is there a whole lot of point putting a Gunner on Han? I've been sold on the usefulness of the gunner (ie in clearing away the defender's evades and focus tokens with th first attack), but isn't it better 'value' on one of the other Falcon pilots as Han already gives you a second chance of a better roll?

And finally, does Marksmanship then tip the balance back in the favour of Han with the gunner, in order to maximise those focuses and crits?

[Ken at Sunrise 2,065]

When I asked this same question I was told Han with gunner and Markesmanship was awesome.

 

I need to try it still but I can see the synergy.

[Forensicus 883]

So my understanding of the Han Solo and Gunner/Luke Skywalker interaction is that the Gunner allows a second attack if the first misses, and Han can choose to reroll all dice in either (or both) of these attacks (except for those dice which have already been rolled).

Firstly is this right?

And following on from that, is there a whole lot of point putting a Gunner on Han? I've been sold on the usefulness of the gunner (ie in clearing away the defender's evades and focus tokens with th first attack), but isn't it better 'value' on one of the other Falcon pilots as Han already gives you a second chance of a better roll?

And finally, does Marksmanship then tip the balance back in the favour of Han with the gunner, in order to maximise those focuses and crits?

 

You should look at it this way:

1. Han (with Marksmanship) shoots first on Range 2 (as always   ) and he rolls 2 x [blank] and just 1 [Hit] so he chooses to reroll all. He then rolls [Hit] , [blank] and [Focus] and uses Marksmanship to change the [Focus] to a [Crit]. Final result [Hit], [blank] and [Crit]
2. The Defender Rolls 1 [Evade] and has 1 [Evade] token which he spends, so the attack misses
3. Now you can/may (should) use the Gunner to perform a second Primary weapon attack. 
4. The Gunner rolls 3 [blanks], and thus Han chooses to re-roll all dices and rolls [Focus], [Focus] and [Crit], and then uses Marksmanship to the final result is now 2 x [Crit] and 1 [Hit]

5. The defender (having spent the [Evade] token has to rely on the dices and rolls 2 [blanks] so the net result is        2 x [Crit] and 1 [Hit]

 

 

I don't know if this is the BEST example out there, but you can see or get the idea that having to re roll ALL dices doesn't necesarily mean that you will hit anything (I know you didn't think so   ) so having a Gunner or Luke ready isn't a totally bad idea. Even with a Target Lock that allows you to re roll the number of dices of your choosing it still feels GOOOOOOD having a backup in the Gunner, sort of like having Howlrunner nearby 

 

Hope you found it useful?

 

May The Force be with you.....

[Bazinga 24]

Not with my dice, han rollls blanks. He may shoot first but he clearly missed.

But good example makes sense, I hate looking across the board at han gunner and marksmanship combo's.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Bazinga

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

It comes down to a balancing act between two things.

1.  The point cost of your build

2.  Maximizing the effectiveness of each attack

 

If you want to REALLY maximize your odds of hitting, yeah - Han, who is like a free Target Lock (with the caveat you have to reroll all of the dice, not just the ones you want to), Marksmanship (which is like a focus action, but with the bonus of turning one eyeball to a crit), Gunner or Luke, I have no idea what the odds are of hitting, or landing what combination of hits and crits, but it's got to be some of the best in the game.

 

It's also more than half your points in a standard game.  Heck, you can throw in Mercenary Copilot if you want (because why not) to bolster your long range shooting a bit.  But if Han goes down you're probably losing the game (outright or on points) against most opponents (at that point you have to kill at least 5 Academy TIEs out of a swarm to gain a slight edge in points), so you have to decide for yourself if it's worth putting all of those eggs in one basket.

 

There are basically two schools of thought once you've sunk ~half your points into one ship like that.  Bling it out for all it's worth, because what's another 10 points between friends?  Or minimize your point investment and sink those points into other ships to support Han and take some of the heat off the biggest, highest priority, easiest to hit target.  Some people figure Han is already good enough with his reroll, some people might add something like Marksmanship for 3, or Gunner for 5, some people go whole hog.

 

I don't know that there's a right or wrong way to do it - whatever works for you is right, and it's only wrong until someone figures out a way to make it work - but I *will* say that one trap most new players fall into is trying to do too much with each ship.  Rebel players are especially guilty of this since so many of their ships just beg to be blinged out with crew, upgrades, secondary weapons, etc.

[VanorDM 11,599]

The trick with Han, or really any of the YT pilots + Marksmanship is that if you use Focus you can only use it on one attack that round.

 

Marksmanship however is in effect for the whole round.  So Han can use it for his attack and the gunners attack if he misses.

Edited August 28, 2013 by VanorDM

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

That's a good point, and another point in favor of Marksmanship versus plain old Focus.  I haven't had my coffee this morning so if I am completely wrong here I apologize, but Han + Gunner lets you potentially roll four times that round.  Shoot, potential reroll with Han.  If that misses, Gunner shoots, potential reroll with Han.  I think.

 

If you have a focus token, you can turn all eyeball results to hits on any ONE of those four rolls, which is nice.  But if you have Marksmanship, as pointed out, it lasts the entire round, which means in addition to turning one eyeball to a CRIT, before turning the rest to hits, you also have four potential chances to make use of it.  

 

Of course you're only going to *actually* use it once, because once you hit something you can't use Gunner, and if you were able to change eyeball results using Marksmanship you're unlikely to randomly use Han to reroll them.  But it does give you four potential chances to land one or more eyeball results among your attack roll, and hopefully get some use out of Marksmanship.  

[Forensicus 883]

That's a good point, and another point in favor of Marksmanship versus plain old Focus.  I haven't had my coffee this morning so if I am completely wrong here I apologize, but Han + Gunner lets you potentially roll four times that round.  Shoot, potential reroll with Han.  If that misses, Gunner shoots, potential reroll with Han.  I think.

 

If you have a focus token, you can turn all eyeball results to hits on any ONE of those four rolls, which is nice.  But if you have Marksmanship, as pointed out, it lasts the entire round, which means in addition to turning one eyeball to a CRIT, before turning the rest to hits, you also have four potential chances to make use of it.  

 

Of course you're only going to *actually* use it once, because once you hit something you can't use Gunner, and if you were able to change eyeball results using Marksmanship you're unlikely to randomly use Han to reroll them.  But it does give you four potential chances to land one or more eyeball results among your attack roll, and hopefully get some use out of Marksmanship.

It's true that MM only has a real Damage/Crit Damage effect once but I prefer to look at this way:

The Han/Gunner/MM combo will VERY likely strip your target of [Focus] and/or [Evade] tokens during the attack(s)/roll(s) and thereby makes any subsequent attacks by other ships more likely to cause damage.

But it IS a very expensive solution, no doubt about that, and unless you have Biggs nearby it will make Han a very important target that your opponent must/should focus their fire on, but that's just keeping it true to the movies; after all Jaba the Hutt have put quite a bounty on Han's head, right??

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

It's not easy, living with a death mark, no.

[Bazinga 24]

Han uses marksmanship to change his first roll does this prevent the dice from being rolled again?

Otherwise some interesting points raised.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Han uses marksmanship to change his first roll does this prevent the dice from being rolled again?

Otherwise some interesting points raised.

 

That's sort of a weird question.  I guess the answer is "technically, no, not that I'm aware of.  But kind of yes, because why would you?"

To clarify: you roll Han's attack dice.  Let's say it's a normal 3 dice attack, and you get a hit and two eyeballs.  If you use Marksmanship, one eyeball becomes a crit, the other becomes a hit, and you have 1 crit, 2 hits on your three dice.  Now, CAN you then use Han's ability to reroll the dice?  Uh, probably.  Would you...?  

 

So on a practical level, I mean you roll the dice, you check the results.  If you have one or more eyeballs in there to make marksmanship worthwhile, you'll use it.  If you don't, you might just reroll all the dice using Han's ability.  Now you may roll blanks, use his reroll, THEN have the chance to use Marksmanship.  But you're more than likely never going to roll, use marksmanship, and then decide to reroll - the first roll either had 1+ eyeball results and is worth using marksmanship on, or it's not.  If it warrants using marksmanship, why would you ever reroll it?

[dbmeboy 807]

Han uses marksmanship to change his first roll does this prevent the dice from being rolled again?

Otherwise some interesting points raised.

Short answer: no. Modifying dice with focus or marksmanship is not a reroll so those dice can still be rerolled. No changing some dice with Marksmanship to keep the safe from Han.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Ah, yeah if that's what you were thinking - use Marksmanship to change the dice in hopes of exempting them from Han's thing (good catch, dbmeboy), no.  They can be modified and rerolled, just not rerolled more than once.

[Bazinga 24]

I was thinking that and when playing mirror match ibtism ability if dice have been locked or re rolled.

[VanorDM 11,599]

you also have four potential chances to make use of it. 

 

Yeah that's how it works.  You can use Han's ability on the gunners attack.  So you can roll upto 4 times for that one attack.  With each one having the ability to use marksmanship to change the [focus] into [crit] and [hits].

 

But as you point out, it's unlikely you'd use it then reroll the dice on the same attack Han or Gunner.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

I was thinking that and when playing mirror match ibtism ability if dice have been locked or re rolled.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, since B-wings can't have a Gunner or anything.

[Bazinga 24]

I was thinking that and when playing mirror match ibtism ability if dice have been locked or re rolled.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, since B-wings can't have a Gunner or anything.

More of preventing ibstim's ability from re rolling one if the dices before han had a chance but now I realised defender goes before han.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

But Ibs modifies one of her own dice on attack or defense, not the opponent's.

[Bazinga 24]

Oh sorry read the card wrong

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

No worries.  I figured one of us was missing something important there.

Only reason I was fairly sure it wasn't me is that I love me some B-Wings, so I was pretty sure I knew what she does.

[Deltmi 786]

No wonder why Han would be the first target to take out... It takes 10 mins for Han to even get off a shot!

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Han shoots first, second, third, fourth....

[GGFG 0]

Sorry to go a little off topic, but I've seen this "Han shoots first" list mentioned before, and I'm not sure what I'm missing.

 

Why does Han shoot first?   I don't see anything in his card or the sheet that came with the Falcon.  

 

 

What am I missing? 

 

Thanks

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

Heh, it's actually a meme that popped up a while back - the name simply comes from the backlash to the Star Wars special editions where Lucas went back and re-edited it to look like Greedo shoots an instant before Han does, in the cantina.  And somehow misses about four feet wide, despite sitting three feet from Han with his gun leveled at him.  You can buy "Han Shot First" t-shirts.

 

In the game, Han is ps9, so he's GOING to shoot first in most situations.  Obviously if he doesn't have initiative somehow vs Vader or Fel or Wedge, or Luke with Veteran Instincts, no, he will not literally shoot first.  But the name just refers to a popular wave 2 build centered around Han (duh) and a pair of cheap X-Wings, where he tries to blow things out of the sky before they have a chance to shoot back at him.

 

It's just kind of a tongue in cheek nod to the old "Han Shot First" backlash, combined with his high pilot skill in the game which does let him take the first shot in a lot of matches.  If it makes you feel any better, I got the joke, but by the time I got into X-Wing everyone had just shortened it to "HSL," and was talking about "HSL, what can beat HSL" and so I had to go look up what in the hell they were talking about.

Edited August 28, 2013 by CrookedWookie

[GGFG 0]

Ha!  Okay, thanks for that.  I was thinking there was some sort of way to make sure he hand initiative or something.  

Thanks for the helpful explanation for a noob.