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Gamerunner

About the Force...

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I would just like some ammo.... I mean to be on the same page as everyone with the force rules.

My group will run into a rogue force user. (using the "Forsaken Jedi" stats, with some adjustments, from the book)

 

If he rolls 2 white pips (or 2 dark) on 3 force dice, he can simply remove a weapon from their hands, no counter roll or difficulty? correct?

I know it requires around 40+ XP to do so, but I'm certain that my group may grumble about it a bit. Am I wrong?

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I would make the Force user roll the Force dice to activate the power successfully, and then have the PC who's targeted make a contested Brawn roll vs. the Force user's...Discipline or the like, maybe augmented by any additional LS or DS points they rolled in excess of activating the power.

 

Hit the targeted PC with a setback die or two to help represent the idea of being surprised at having their weapon possibly pulled out of their grasp.

 

By making it a contested roll, you cut down on the chances of a player getting (understandably) upset if a bad guy just ups and disarms them just cause. With the roll, at least they have a chance of holding onto the weapon, but then having to realize they're up against someone unusual.

Edited by Ineti

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No contested roll -- too much chance of Epic Fail! If you're going to have an Emeffer jump out and start ripping guns outta peeps hands, then by the Force, have him do so! Teach 'em to carry side-arms. How many chances do you think he's going to get? It's bad enough if the guy is a Rival with a life expectancy of 1.5 rounds, even worse if he's a recurring Villain since you only get once chance to make a first impression. Do you want him to be forever known as "

, the least-feared Sith Lord of the Outer Rim?"

 

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Gotta go with Lorne on this, just do it.  The odds of him getting enough pips to work with aren't that great anyway.  Besides, the Force is supposed to be a myth.  Even if the players know what's coming, the characters won't know they have to hug their weapons.

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If it's the first time they've ever encountered someone who "tele-disarms" -- i.e. never came across a bounty hunter or merc who used magnets to achieve the same trick -- then yeah, it's just gonna happen, is my view... but if this guy is a Nemesis (like the Forsaken Jedi) then let him disarm them off the bat but not "go for the kill" right away, some would-be gradiose speech so that your players can think of a way out of the situation or to get their weapons back from this guy..

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Just have everyone equip short holster straps. He may pull the weapon from your hand, but it ain't going anywhere. :)

See, this is what I'd have them be doing if they'd ever come across someone like that in the past. :P

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I would just like some ammo.... I mean to be on the same page as everyone with the force rules.

My group will run into a rogue force user. (using the "Forsaken Jedi" stats, with some adjustments, from the book)

 

If he rolls 2 white pips (or 2 dark) on 3 force dice, he can simply remove a weapon from their hands, no counter roll or difficulty? correct?

I know it requires around 40+ XP to do so, but I'm certain that my group may grumble about it a bit. Am I wrong?

You're not entirely wrong.

 

Being able to disarm someone with the Move power doesn't provide the target with a means to resist.  Han got disarmed with laughable ease in ESB by Darth Vader.  As others have mentioned, there are various house rules that you can choose to implement if you like, but honestly I don't see the Forsaken Jedi lasting long enough for it to be a major dealbreaker, plus it's a cheese tactic on your part if you have the NPC use this tactic to the exclusion of all else.  Maybe use it on the Bounty Hunter that's packing a blaster rifle or the Marauder wielding a vibro-ax, but don't use it to strip away the blaster pistols the rest of the party may have.

 

The one bit you're off on is that it only costs 1 Force Point if the PCs are at Short Range, since the Control Upgrade to disarm doesn't have a separate Force Point cost, the basic power has a default range of Short, and the vast majority of personal weapons are Silhouette 0.

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think about it this way.  If a player rolls enough threat (or the enemy enough advantage) on a combat roll, the GM can have him drop his weapon, no questions asked.

 

 

Same should be true about the Force pull.  ESPECIALLY the first time they see it.  Maybe they can prepare themselves after they see it once to hold on to their weapons a little tighter to resist now they know what to look out for.

 

 

Han is an experienced smuggler, but he seemed to be pretty shocked when Vader pulled his blaster away.

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Vader's Cool roll was greater than Han's Vigilance roll.

 

Vader acted first!

Pretty sure Han shot his blaster and Vader just absorbed it into his hand/deflected it then took the blaster. It's been a while, I could be wrong.

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Vader yanked Han's blaster away, but it was the squad of Stormtroopers coming through the door behind who put the binders on him.

Also, unless I am very much mistaken, Force disarm is only going to work on one weapon per action. I would definitely call cheese if the villain waved his hand and every blaster in the room leapt towards him simultaneously. Unless of course the villain had spent many, many experience points on upgrades.

I think that having him wave his hand and pull the most impressive weapon the PCs are carrying straight to his hand is a very impressive feat and should set the tone that this is someone they do not want to mess with.

Beside all of this, if he is constantly using Move to disarm PCs he isn't doing anything else, like inflicting damaging attacks...

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Vader yanked Han's blaster away, but it was the squad of Stormtroopers coming through the door behind who put the binders on him.

Also, unless I am very much mistaken, Force disarm is only going to work on one weapon per action. I would definitely call cheese if the villain waved his hand and every blaster in the room leapt towards him simultaneously. Unless of course the villain had spent many, many experience points on upgrades.

I think that having him wave his hand and pull the most impressive weapon the PCs are carrying straight to his hand is a very impressive feat and should set the tone that this is someone they do not want to mess with.

Beside all of this, if he is constantly using Move to disarm PCs he isn't doing anything else, like inflicting damaging attacks...

First of all, the way I play it story>rules. In a similar vein there are powers the NPCs have access to that PCs don't (ie adversary) no reason they can't have force power the PCs don't. Second, if my group were to turn super rules lawyer and throw a fit then if available I'd flip some destiny OR invoke rule 0.

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Although this thread is a good rules discussion, it largely ignores one of the precepts of RPGing: players don't like having their cool stuff taken away.

 

I would consider giving anyone so-disarmed the opportunity to use a Destiny Point to make a Vigilance check to resist.

 

As a GM who has 2 Jedi PCs (I haven't converted over to Saga yet), the idea that Force users can just do stuff like this unresisted. :)

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As per my suggestion, I nominate the element of surprise as the key factor... but paired with the opportunity to get the weapon back, and only allowing resist attempts for subsequent disarm-attempts during the encounter and thereafter.

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Although this thread is a good rules discussion, it largely ignores one of the precepts of RPGing: players don't like having their cool stuff taken away.

 

...ignoring? Cheesing-off the players is the entire point of this move!  Big, bad hunter draws his favorite rifle ("Callahan full-bore auto-lock with customized trigger double cartritdge through-gauge...I call her Vera.") and -- oops! It's across the room -- is exactly the sort of emotional WTF the GM should be angling for.  Maybe they get into a pissed-off school-yard brawl -- that's worth the price of admission, baby!

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See my note that while grabbing blasters with the Force the Dark Jedi isn't doing anything else. Surely a clever group of players can come up with a way to work that to their advantage?

I fully realize that players don't like having their cool toys taken away, remember though that in his situation the toy is not gone permanently. If you like you could even have the Force user fling it contemptuously across the room. Spend a maneuver to dive across the room and recover it?

Story trumps rules, but this needs to be invoked sparingly. Spending a destiny point to resist would be appropriate. Allowing a resistance roll against subsequent Force disarm attempts in the same encounter would also be fine. The characters are alert to the trick and hanging on to their blasters.

Of course if the disarmed character has a backup weapon he could just draw that and attack...

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THink about what you'd want as a player. Remember that NPCs aren't players, and shouldn't necessarily follow the same rules.

If a PC has invested the XP to develop this power to the point that they can reliably disarm people, sure, they shouldn't necessarily need to make any extra rolls to do it. An NPC shouldn't even have to roll the force die, though - just tell the PCs he/she is using a Force power, and make them roll something like Athletics to resist being disarmed.

If you really want to disarm the PC without a roll, or stop the PC from disarming an important nemesis, then spend a Destiny Point and tell them that it works/doesn't work as appropriate.

Generally speaking, players respond better to things in game when they get a roll, or when the GM spends a resource, than when you simply say "this happens, and you can't do anything about it". You want them to have a sense of agency, and this game gives you plenty of ways to help with that.

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Although this thread is a good rules discussion, it largely ignores one of the precepts of RPGing: players don't like having their cool stuff taken away.

 

...ignoring? Cheesing-off the players is the entire point of this move!  Big, bad hunter draws his favorite rifle ("Callahan full-bore auto-lock with customized trigger double cartritdge through-gauge...I call her Vera.") and -- oops! It's across the room -- is exactly the sort of emotional WTF the GM should be angling for.  Maybe they get into a pissed-off school-yard brawl -- that's worth the price of admission, baby!

 

 

Firefly reference = cool.

 

Sentiment of the post = uncool.

 

Players respond well to being challenged, not being railroaded.

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Generally speaking, players respond better to things in game when they get a roll, or when the GM spends a resource, than when you simply say "this happens, and you can't do anything about it". You want them to have a sense of agency, and this game gives you plenty of ways to help with that.

 

Agreed.

 

I think it also depends on how the weapon removal is depicted. Under the right circumstances, I think the PCs CAN respond perfectly well to GM fiat... especially if it's to establish the scene rather than as a tactic they PCs will feel the NPC can pull over and over again.

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I think a lot of us in this thread have been trying to work through the game mechanics to be sure the GM is "playing fair". Just having the NPC grab Vera through GM fiat doesn't feel fair, it feels like being railroaded.

Losing Vera to well played game mechanics is fair. A piss-off, sure. Not something that should happen every encounter, but certainly fair, and it sets up the Big Bad as "no one to be trifled with".

Besides which, Mr Big Bad is still bound by initiative, maneuvers, actions, etc. so at best he disarms two characters before the rest open fire on him.

A clever way for the PCs to turn the tables if they are expecting this trick, set Vera to "overload" before they walk into the room. MR Big Bad Force yanks her across the room to him, and BOOM!

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