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Gaining new specializations

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My big question is when you buy a new specialization using experience points, do you gain access to the specialization skill set as well as the career skill set, or just the specialization's skillset?

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Do note that you don't get to choose 2 skills to gain training in like you did at character creation. The 4 bonus skill just become career skills(aka cheaper). I only say this because this is what I originally thought and had to be politely corrected.

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The question I have on this topic is if you have already spent XP on a non-class skill... say you are a Bounty Hunter Assassin and bought 2 ranks in Ranged (Light) but then get Gageteer as a new specialization. do I get the 10 extra XP I spent on Ranged (light) back?

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The question I have on this topic is if you have already spent XP on a non-class skill... say you are a Bounty Hunter Assassin and bought 2 ranks in Ranged (Light) but then get Gageteer as a new specialization. do I get the 10 extra XP I spent on Ranged (light) back?

That was answered "No" in an episode of Order 66.

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The path is, spend all xp on characteristics at char. generation then buy the talents you want in one or two talenttrees then buy skills.

 

(This is not necessarily a recommendation to anyone. It's just me in the gaming group that finds the talents to be way more fun than having lots of dice at skill checks :wub: )

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The path is, spend all xp on characteristics at char. generation then buy the talents you want in one or two talenttrees then buy skills.

 

(This is not necessarily a recommendation to anyone. It's just me in the gaming group that finds the talents to be way more fun than having lots of dice at skill checks :wub: )

In my game everyone spent 90-100 of starting XP on characteristics. We've earned 50 XP over three sessions, and most characters have spent about half on skills and half on talents.

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The path is, spend all xp on characteristics at char. generation then buy the talents you want in one or two talenttrees then buy skills.

 

(This is not necessarily a recommendation to anyone. It's just me in the gaming group that finds the talents to be way more fun than having lots of dice at skill checks :wub: )

 

It was actually suggested as the best course of action by the Devs also (Order 66 Podcast ep 14/15)

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Almost feels like a design flaw. If everyone is recommending increasing characteristics with starting XP, maybe the starting characteristics levels should have been higher.

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Almost feels like a design flaw. If everyone is recommending increasing characteristics with starting XP, maybe the starting characteristics levels should have been higher.

They aren't higher because different characters will want different Characteristics raised over others. The knowledge types would want a higher Intellect; the fighters might want a higher Agility or Brawn, etc... And some might not even bother raising them at all, choosing instead to spend the XP on Talents and skills.

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Almost feels like a design flaw. If everyone is recommending increasing characteristics with starting XP, maybe the starting characteristics levels should have been higher.

They aren't higher because different characters will want different Characteristics raised over others. The knowledge types would want a higher Intellect; the fighters might want a higher Agility or Brawn, etc... And some might not even bother raising them at all, choosing instead to spend the XP on Talents and skills.

 

 

Kallabecca is right on. Most XP is spent getting a few stats up from 2 to 3 but you can't say with certainty which ones a given character will raise (I've only had one group make characters, and just from that one experience I can say with certainty that this is the case). 

 

I also think that as the players get a better grasp of the system, many will realize that Characteristics aren't as critical to competent characters as people are making them to be now (Especially with many players coming from SAGA – with all of d20's "optimize or be useless" baggage).

 

Give the game a year and you may start seeing some Ag 2 pilots and Int 2 Mechanics, who are better out the gate because they have all the bells and whistles from talents.

Edited by Doc, the Weasel

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Kallabecca is right on. Most XP is spent getting a few stats up from 2 to 3 but you can't say with certainty which ones a given character will raise (I've only had one group make characters, and just from that one experience I can say with certainty that this is the case). 

 

I also think that as the players get a better grasp of the system, many will realize that Characteristics aren't as critical to competent characters as people are making them to be now (Especially with many players coming from SAGA – with all of d20's "optimize or be useless" baggage).

 

Give the game a year and you may start seeing some Ag 2 pilots and Int 2 Mechanics, who are better out the gate because they have all the bells and whistles from talents.

 

As true as this may (or may not) be, we will have to see in a year...

 

I want to say I do not believe you to be correct. Its several hundred XP down the road, when a character who invested in starting Characteristic bumps will likely start to be seen as "better".

 

Sure, the one who neglected starting stats will always be a bit ahead on skill ranks and talents, perhaps. But if two mechanics both end up with 5 ranks in their primary skill (Mechanics, duh), the 3 Int PC will be YYYGG to the 2 Int's YYGGG. That's generating a Triumph 50% more often. And that's not even counting the Y superiority to G in general thing.

 

And there is nothing the 2 Int guy can ever do to make up for that core "mechanical" (pardon the pun) difficiency.

 

Just my take on it. YMMV...

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I alway thought, and still do, that you should get 3 or 4 Characteristic Points for increasing characteristics during chargen, and ignoring XP costs for characteristics all together.

That's my one and only house rule.

-EF

It's an interesting idea.  Do you lower the starting XP with it?

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Kallabecca is right on. Most XP is spent getting a few stats up from 2 to 3 but you can't say with certainty which ones a given character will raise (I've only had one group make characters, and just from that one experience I can say with certainty that this is the case). 

 

I also think that as the players get a better grasp of the system, many will realize that Characteristics aren't as critical to competent characters as people are making them to be now (Especially with many players coming from SAGA – with all of d20's "optimize or be useless" baggage).

 

Give the game a year and you may start seeing some Ag 2 pilots and Int 2 Mechanics, who are better out the gate because they have all the bells and whistles from talents.

 

As true as this may (or may not) be, we will have to see in a year...

 

I want to say I do not believe you to be correct. Its several hundred XP down the road, when a character who invested in starting Characteristic bumps will likely start to be seen as "better".

 

Sure, the one who neglected starting stats will always be a bit ahead on skill ranks and talents, perhaps. But if two mechanics both end up with 5 ranks in their primary skill (Mechanics, duh), the 3 Int PC will be YYYGG to the 2 Int's YYGGG. That's generating a Triumph 50% more often. And that's not even counting the Y superiority to G in general thing.

 

And there is nothing the 2 Int guy can ever do to make up for that core "mechanical" (pardon the pun) difficiency.

 

Just my take on it. YMMV...

 

 

Actually, he can. The Dedication Talent at the bottom of each tree. Either character can, in the long run, get Characteristics capped out. At the lower end getting the boost dice or an extra ability die is better than replacing a die with a Proficiency (see Beta forums for the stats covering this).

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Kallabecca is right on. Most XP is spent getting a few stats up from 2 to 3 but you can't say with certainty which ones a given character will raise (I've only had one group make characters, and just from that one experience I can say with certainty that this is the case). 

 

I also think that as the players get a better grasp of the system, many will realize that Characteristics aren't as critical to competent characters as people are making them to be now (Especially with many players coming from SAGA – with all of d20's "optimize or be useless" baggage).

 

Give the game a year and you may start seeing some Ag 2 pilots and Int 2 Mechanics, who are better out the gate because they have all the bells and whistles from talents.

 

As true as this may (or may not) be, we will have to see in a year...

 

I want to say I do not believe you to be correct. Its several hundred XP down the road, when a character who invested in starting Characteristic bumps will likely start to be seen as "better".

 

Sure, the one who neglected starting stats will always be a bit ahead on skill ranks and talents, perhaps. But if two mechanics both end up with 5 ranks in their primary skill (Mechanics, duh), the 3 Int PC will be YYYGG to the 2 Int's YYGGG. That's generating a Triumph 50% more often. And that's not even counting the Y superiority to G in general thing.

 

And there is nothing the 2 Int guy can ever do to make up for that core "mechanical" (pardon the pun) difficiency.

 

Just my take on it. YMMV...

My point is that this isn't a system where you have to squeeze every last upgrade out of char gen to have a useful character. Other games have a "min/max or else" ideology, but not this one. An ag 2 skill 2 pilot will be a productive team member regardless of being shorted a die upgrade 100xp later.

The way the dice and stats interact allows players to easily make useful characters and focus on the story rather than being forced to math out the best xp progression.

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I alway thought, and still do, that you should get 3 or 4 Characteristic Points for increasing characteristics during chargen, and ignoring XP costs for characteristics all together.

That's my one and only house rule.

-EF

It's an interesting idea.  Do you lower the starting XP with it?

Nope. It gives them more XP to be cool! More skills and talents!

Granted, I haven't had a chance to play/run yet, so it's all theoretical >_<

-EF

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Why not run the game RAW before you start modifying things based on what you think is an "issue"?

Well, it could just be that he enjoys running/playing games with a higher base power level and skipping the perceived "scrub stage" that most PCs tend to start out at.  It'd be little different (in concept) than starting a D&D/Pathfinder character at 3rd level instead of 1st level.

 

That said, I think the flat "here's a bunch of extra points for Characteristics" is going to be problematic. Personally, I'd just give the PCs an extra allotment of XP, not unlike what FFG used as guidelines for the "build your own PC" option for the "Matter of Life & Death" GenCon event.  They used +100 XP and +1500 credits, with the caveat that you couldn't take additional Obligation.

 

So by providing the bonus XP (and probably limiting extra Obligation to additional starting credits), a GM could have their cake (more points for the PCs to be pretty cool in terms of Characteristics, Skills, and Talents) and eat it to (keep the basic rule structure for character creation without risk of any oddball curves).  Though I'd recommend that any additional XP be spent as though it were Adventure XP; in other words, you only get to spend it after Step 7.  Otherwise, you'll have players wanting to dump all that XP into their Characteristics instead of splitting it up between the three.

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Why not run the game RAW before you start modifying things based on what you think is an "issue"?

Well, it could just be that he enjoys running/playing games with a higher base power level and skipping the perceived "scrub stage" that most PCs tend to start out at.  It'd be little different (in concept) than starting a D&D/Pathfinder character at 3rd level instead of 1st level.

But that isn't changing the RAW. Nothing in the rules for D&D says you have to start at level 1. In fact the main books even show how to create characters of higher level to start with (and include the amount of GP in gear the character should have by that point). So, that doesn't really counter what I asked.

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Why not run the game RAW before you start modifying things based on what you think is an "issue"?

 

Mainly because I find XP for characteristics is an odd-ball rule. It's the only place where XP can be spent on characteristics. I mean, if you could spend XP later on, that's one thing. All other XP rules continue throughout your character's career.

 

It just bugs me on an CDO level (it's like OCD, but in alphabetical order). Let all the XP rules be the same, no matter what point in the game you are in. Obviously it's there to give players a bit of wiggle room to customize their characters without allowing for too high of characteristics. But if you want players to bump up a characteristic or two, give 'em points to do just that.

 

-EF

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The question I have on this topic is if you have already spent XP on a non-class skill... say you are a Bounty Hunter Assassin and bought 2 ranks in Ranged (Light) but then get Gageteer as a new specialization. do I get the 10 extra XP I spent on Ranged (light) back?

That was answered "No" in an episode of Order 66.

 

So it becomes a penalty to take a specialization after taking some of it's class skills? that doesn't seem right.

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