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HoyaLawya

Tournament ettiquette

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I've recently learned that I will be leaving GenCon early due to a family situation. I'll be getting picked up from Indy around 1pm on Friday. Since this only gives me enough time to play 2 games in the melee tournament, there's no way I can win it. Under current rules, should I completely skip since I know I have to drop after 2 rounds. That automatically puts me out of the running and from the first game cannot be playing to win the tournament (though I can play to win each table)

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I've recently learned that I will be leaving GenCon early due to a family situation. I'll be getting picked up from Indy around 1pm on Friday. Since this only gives me enough time to play 2 games in the melee tournament, there's no way I can win it. Under current rules, should I completely skip since I know I have to drop after 2 rounds. That automatically puts me out of the running and from the first game cannot be playing to win the tournament (though I can play to win each table)

 

There may be some grey area there in the tournament rules, but I think I speak for everyone when I say that if you want to play a few melee games, join the tourney and play the first two rounds. You'll have more fun, more people will get to know you (an active member of the community), and, with any luck, I'll get to repay you for letting me take second at table 3 at worlds last year.

 

Do play to win each table, of course!

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Do play to win each table, of course!

 

 

I think that's the key.

 

I read the tournament rules dealing with sportsmanship and collusion as being more about honoring the spirit of the game and individual achievement, not barring all but the most competitive jerks from playing in an event. Knowing you have to drop after 2 rounds in order to catch your ride doesn't violate the "play to win for yourself" rules any more than deciding to drop after a poor showing in the first 2 rounds in order to visit the rest of the Con does.

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One potential plan is not to announce that you will be leaving early publicly, and simply leave after two rounds, telling the TO(s), "Sorry, I have to leave; something's come up. My name is X." Then, they say, "Ok", and you walk away. 

 

No one will care. Plus, they aren't going to question you. And, even if they did, you would just tell them that it isn't any of their business what your personal affairs entail. 

 

It's a mid-sized tournament for a minor game type of a niche card game; it isn't the Olympics.    :)

 

Going in with a large group of people and some elaborate plan for certain people to drop at certain times is shady and lame. Showing up on your own to sneak in a few games of an LCG that you love is great. It isn't anyone else's business. Go play and have fun and leave whenever you want to. 

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I've recently learned that I will be leaving GenCon early due to a family situation. I'll be getting picked up from Indy around 1pm on Friday. Since this only gives me enough time to play 2 games in the melee tournament, there's no way I can win it. Under current rules, should I completely skip since I know I have to drop after 2 rounds. That automatically puts me out of the running and from the first game cannot be playing to win the tournament (though I can play to win each table)

 

I appreciate the question and I'm going to give you an answer you probably won't like. Yes, you should not participate. Here is the reason:

 

A standard swiss tournament when run optimally will mimic a single elimination bracket. Now obviously melee isn't swiss, but it still operates under the same spirit. The winner at each table is ultimately eliminating (or dramatically reducing) the odds of another player winning. In a normal bracket, this is a good thing. This results in the best players bubbling to the top. Now let's take the example of you playing and dropping to the extreme. Let's say you are the best player at the tournament.

 

You enter the tournament of 16 players. Normal pairing results in your being paired with the worst player, so your tournament path looks like:

 

16, 8, 4, 2, champion.

 

The path of second seed is:

 

15, 7, 3, 1

 

The path of third seed is:

 

14, 6, 2, out

 

Now. Let's look at the tourney where you do not participate. everyone moves up a step.

 

2 now goes - 16, 8, 4, 2, champion

 

3 now gows - 15, 7, 3, 1

 

Here you can clearly see that third player benefits significantly from you not playing in that they make it to the final. Now lets look at the result when you drop out after the second game:

 

You - 16, 8, out

 

2 - 15, 7, 3, 4

 

3 - 14, 6, 2, out

 

4 - 13, 5, 1, 2

 

Here you can clearly see that your decision to drop out early unfairly impacts 3rd seed. If you had dropped out at the beginning, he makes it to the final. If you drop out after the second game, 4th seed makes it to the final.

 

This is why you should not participate if you do not intend on finishing a tournament. You skew the results in a way that is unfair to someone by dropping out.

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mdc, you're full of ****.

  1. A Swiss tournament does not emulate a single-elimination tournament, because there is no previous ranking and everyone keeps playing.
  2. We're talking about melee, not joust, so your virtual bracket is neither here nor there.

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Since 10 was the start of registration, not the actual tournament it didn't matter anyway. The best I would have been able to do is 1 game, and that's not worth hand writing a decklist over - especially for melee.

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mdc, you're full of ****.

  1. A Swiss tournament does not emulate a single-elimination tournament, because there is no previous ranking and everyone keeps playing.
  2. We're talking about melee, not joust, so your virtual bracket is neither here nor there.

 

 

Uh... Actually Swiss perfectly mimics single elimination... With occasional unexpected variance based on random luck...

 

"Assuming no drawn games, determining a clear winner (and, incidentally, a clear loser) would require the same number of rounds as a knockout tournament, that is the binary logarithm of the number of players rounded up. Thus three rounds can handle eight players, four rounds can handle sixteen players and so on. If fewer than this minimum number of rounds are played, it can happen that two or more players finish the tournament with a perfect score, having won all their games but never faced each other." - Wikipedia Article

 

So yea, I'm actually correct in my statement and I can show you a bracket if you still don't believe me. If you think he should play, fine, but my statement remains accurate. I'm also not sure what seeding has to do with anything. No seeding is identical to having a randomly organized single elim tourney and a randomized swiss tourney.

 

My virtual bracket serves the purpose of illustrating that if you win any games, you impact someone unfairly. This holds even more true in melee. Winning even a single challenge without the intent of finishing impacts someone unfairly. You can minimize the fact as much as you'd like as it's overall impact is an unknown, but it is still true.

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Mdc: did you notice the Wikipedia article compares the 2 systems only about determining a clear winner and loser? Leaving aside the fact that a randomly seeded swiss tournament provides a ranking usable for seeding a bracket, while a single elimination tournament does not provide any usable ranking beyond 1st place (since the 2nd best player could be any of the best's opponents). Not to mention a first round loss doesn't prevent a player from placing well in a swiss tournament, while it's the end in a single elimination tournament. So no, your statement that "a swiss tournament emulates a single elimination tournament" is not factually correct and that's why TOs choose one over the other.

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I figured that'd be your next point while I was thinking about this after I posted, but it doesn't invalidate my statement. This is totally tangential to the original post, but I think there's value in it being discussed.

 

Yes. You are correct that the current tournament format for AGoT (which is not pure swiss) does not mimic a single elimination bracket. It's pretty close to a double elim bracket, but still not identical (really, look at the number of losses the top part of the cut has and add one to determine the kind of elim tourney you're effectively playing). I'm actually not a huge fan of swiss with cut as that undefeated player can get shafted when compared to the same player in double elim. In double elim, the undefeated player must be beaten twice before getting knocked out. This is not so in AGoT, and a weakness of the format in my opinion. You'll note that the article says that the top and bottom of a Swiss tournament are fairly accurate and it would not be a stretch to conclude that eliminating the undefeated player before a player with a loss is an injustice to the undefeated player.

 

Regarding rankings, you are getting into the value of swiss, versus the intent of swiss, over the value of a single elimination bracket for the purpose of AGoT. In that regards, I will agree with you. Swiss is immensely more valuable in creating a usable ranking to create an elimination bracket, but this is the clear illustration that AGoT tournaments are not pure Swiss-pairing tournaments. They are a hybrid of swiss and elimination (and yes, it is very common. It's still not pure Swiss style).

 

If you can't tell. I am taking issue with your assertion that my statement is not factually correct. It is and I've given the parameters under which it is correct in the Wikipedia article I quoted. I can agree to an assertion that an AGoT tournament does not mimic or emulate a swiss style or single elimination style tournament. It is more likely accurate to say that AGoT tournaments emulate the process of a qualifying series followed by a single elimination tournament. It's also why they take so **** long, lol. Volleyball has a similar issue for club play with time to finish.

 

Back on topic, there will always be a degree of injustice (likely indeterminate) that a player inflicts upon one or more other players by participating in a tournament for which they do not intend to complete. As etiquette is really just determined by convention, my intent was to objectively show how his participation had the potential for injustice in case he wanted to decide himself whether or not to participate and he felt that current etiquette was insufficient for answering his question.

 

This is why I'm so much less hated in person. Back and forth is so much easier, man. Hahahahahaha.

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Don't take "factually incorrect" too hard (I don't hate people who attack my statements nor those whose statements I attack). I still think you take the Wikipedia statement too broadly. Part of the intent of Swiss is letting everyone play throughout, which is totally unlike an elimination tournament. The ultimate goal of both is of course determining a winner, but the way they do it is different enough for one not to be an emulation of the other, much less a perfect one. Back to the central point, I agree an extra player has an inderminate effect on the game, which will be negative for some players and positive for others. To be honest, I wouldn't a enter a tournament if I couldn't complete at least the qualifying rounds. That way, the ranking is established in the normal way and players behind me would move up a rank if I drop.

 

And it's all moot, as he's decided not to play.

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