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Ryor

Combat Master Talent

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In the description of this talent, it says.
'Opponents fighting the character in hand-to-hand combat gain no bonuses for Ganging Up (see page 253).'

 

When it says hand-to-hand, does it mean liteterally combat when there are not any melee weapons drawn and you're fighting with your fists, or does it just mean in melee combat which i'm hoping for.

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Im quite sure that the description extends to all melee combat, armed or unarmed.

I hope so, but how it's written it just means literally hand-to-hand.

I'll ask my game master if it means all melee combat, and hope for the best!

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Technically, it means Close Quarters Combat, which in 40k could mean both opponents could be dual-wielding pistols.

 

If you have trouble visualizing what "Hand-to-Hand" with 2 guys and 4 pistols looks like, watch Roadblock and Firefly duke it out in GI Joe 2.  I have no use for that movie, but that particular scene was awesome and it alone makes it worth the rental price.

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It's just a terrible choice of words. I am very, very sure that it's meant to refer to all Melee Combat.

It's always meant all melee combat. Hand-to-hand is just a way of referring to melee.

Not necessarily. In many, many RPGs and CRPGs, Hand-to-Hand refers exclusively to unarmed or semi-armed (fist/hand weapons) combat.

AFAIK, Hand-to-Hand is not used consistently throughout the WH40kRPG line nor in Only War as a way to referring to melee in general. While I do agree with the general sentiment and belief that it is indeed meant to refer to melee in general in this particular case, it is by no means a rule or just a way of referring to melee.

Edited by Fgdsfg

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"Hand-to-hand combat (sometimes abbreviated as HTH or H2H) is a lethal or nonlethal physical confrontation between two or more persons at very short range (grappling distance) that does not involve the use of firearms or other distance weapons.[1] While the phrase "hand-to-hand" appears to refer to unarmed combat, the term is generic and may include use of striking weapons used at grappling distance such as knives, sticks, batons, or improvised weapons such as entrenching tools.[1] While the term hand-to-hand combat originally referred principally to engagements by military personnel on the battlefield, it can also refer to any personal physical engagement by two or more combatants, including police officers and civilians."

 

This is only from wikipedia but is referenced.  I would never consider 'hand-to-hand' to only refer to unarmed combat.  Not sure I've ever seen a set of rules (wargaming or RPG) that used the phrase exclusively for unarmed combat, but I'm prepared to believe there are - they are just wrong :-).

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"Hand-to-hand combat (sometimes abbreviated as HTH or H2H) is a lethal or nonlethal physical confrontation between two or more persons at very short range (grappling distance) that does not involve the use of firearms or other distance weapons.%5B1%5D While the phrase "hand-to-hand" appears to refer to unarmed combat, the term is generic and may include use of striking weapons used at grappling distance such as knives, sticks, batons, or improvised weapons such as entrenching tools.%5B1%5D While the term hand-to-hand combat originally referred principally to engagements by military personnel on the battlefield, it can also refer to any personal physical engagement by two or more combatants, including police officers and civilians."

 

This is only from wikipedia but is referenced.  I would never consider 'hand-to-hand' to only refer to unarmed combat.  Not sure I've ever seen a set of rules (wargaming or RPG) that used the phrase exclusively for unarmed combat, but I'm prepared to believe there are - they are just wrong :-).

While I do enjoy musings on semantics, that's really all it is - semantics. It doesn't change the way it's often used, and referencing a single source only really settles the way the expression is used in that particular context. As always, contexts may vary.

Besides, I agree with the general sentiment and interpretation in this particular case, but that doesn't mean that it's used consistently. In the context of the rules, I definitely think that it should say Melee, since Melee is a technical term in the rules, meaning that you are engaged in Melee Combat, where special rules and regulations apply (free attacks, Disengage, etc).

A consistent use of key terms is paramount in rules-writing to avoid confusion, and something Fantasy Flight Games is regrettably terrible at.

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Sorry but I don't see it as semantics.  I have NEVER seen hand-to-hand not used as a technical term for unarmed combat only and it is wrong to do so in all forms.  I also don't think that "hand-to-hand" is ever used in FFG games to mean unarmed combat, so they have been consistent.

 

That was my point, sorry if it wasn't clear.

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Sorry but I don't see it as semantics.

Oh, the hilarity of someone hung up on semantics not acknowledging the semantics as semantics, even when it's semantics by definition. That's irony for you.

I have NEVER seen hand-to-hand not used as a technical term for unarmed combat only and it is wrong to do so in all forms.

Your opinion is duly noted, but whether it's wrong or not isn't really the issue at all, like I said. It's about clarity.

Also, I assume that the double negative in the first sentence of this quoted section to be an error. When I saw it I considered making fun of it but I have no urge to mock you.

I also don't think that "hand-to-hand" is ever used in FFG games to mean unarmed combat, so they have been consistent.

I haven't plowed through all the FFG games, but in none of the WH40kRPG Core Rulebooks is "Hand-to-Hand" a technical term, nor used consistently to refer to melee combat in general or specifically, or vice-versa in regards to unarmed combat. It simply isn't defined in a rules context at all.

Which was my only point in regards to the usage in this particular context. I'm not really seeing the point of contention, here.

 

That was my point, sorry if it wasn't clear.

Oh, it was clear, although the point on consistent use was added and not at all referred to before, so it's understandable if it was a bit unclear, for sure.

That being said, FFG does appear to be using "hand-to-hand" as a concept correctly by definition, across the various Core Rulebooks. It's still never used within the rules, however, and never defined, nor considered a technical term, making it a poor choice of words when explaining the core function of a Talent.

Which was the core point of my preceding post on the matter. Again, I'm not sure what the point of contention is here.

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Heh yeah the double negative was in error.  Regardless I think we both agree that the talent in question refers to combat where you are using WS checks to hit each other no matter what implement you use to roll damage.

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