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kr4ng

venomous manticore and the red viper

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Nope. It can go directly. Just like The Viper can be the card you attach "He Calls It Thinking" to after using the event to cancel a Response.

 

This is a fairly common question about the scope of immunity and cards that become attachments. The short answer is that since these cards do not "choose" the character, they are not acting directly on the character, so the immunity doesn't prevent the attachment.

 

The full explanation goes like this: Let's say that The Viper has an attachment on him. An event or character ability discards the attachment without choosing the attached character (in this case, The Viper) as a target. Does The Viper's immunity stop this event or ability from taking the attachment off of The Viper? No, of course not - because the event or ability is working directly on the attachment (discarding it) and only indirectly on the attached character (by whatever the results are for losing the attachment). And since immunity only protects from effects that work directly on the immune card, The Viper's immunity therefore does not prevent effects from taking attachments away from him. 

 

Well, the effect of something like Venomous Manticore is the same thing, just in reverse. The "attach this card to a character" effect works directly on the card being attached (in this case, the Manticore) and only indirectly on the character it is being attached to (the same as the "discard this attachment from a character" effect discussed above). Since immunity only protects from direct effects, The Viper's immunity doesn't stop an effect from putting an attachment on him, any more than it stops an effect from taking an attachment from him.

 

All of this means that the Manticore can be attached directly to The Viper (or any other "immune to character abilities" character) when you trigger its ability because its effects are outside the scope of that immunity.

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Cool! thanks ktom.  I keep playing my dragonpit deck in testing for gencon, and this always comes up against my opponents. haha. (note to anyone scouting - I am probably not playing dragonpit at gencon, but swhiteboy knows how much I love that deck).

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what about retreat?can I use Retreat to retrun TRV to my hand?

my answer:yes,I can.

 

another question,can Black Betha be used to Stannis?

my answer:yes,I can.

 

am I right?thanks~~

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what about retreat?can I use Retreat to retrun TRV to my hand?

my answer:yes,I can.

 

another question,can Black Betha be used to Stannis?

my answer:yes,I can.

 

am I right?thanks~~

 

Red Viper is immune to events so you can't use Retreat on him.

 

Stannis is immune to location abilities so you can't use Black Betha's location ability on him. (I know it is a bummer)

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Actually, the two are different because Retreat acts directly on the character, while Black Betha does not (and neither target). Duplicates aren't covered by immunity and adding one to or removing one from a character is not a direct effect on it (no more than moving attachments, power or gold to or from it). TRV's immunity doesn't stop He Calls It Thinking attaching to him or Ellaria Sand taking his power, so Stannis's immunity doesn't stop Black Betha from giving him a duplicate.

 

(3.20) Scope of Immunity
Immunity only protects a card itself. Peripheral entities attached to or associated with a card, such as attachments, duplicates, power counters, gold tokens on the immune card, and also including triggered effects originating from the immune card, can still be affected by cards of the type to which that card is immune, as long as the affecting cards do not target the immune card.

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Black Betha can attach a duplicate to Stannis for the same reason outlined above for why Venomous Manticore can attach itself the The Viper. The direct effect is on the card-made-duplicate; the character receiving the dupe is only indirectly affected.

 

Retreat works directly on the character, though, so any character immune to events would ignore the effect. I'd be interested to hear why you think Retreat on the on The Viper should work, snowfrost.

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