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grover2000

A grey, not evil Empire?

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Can you have a grey, not evil Empire without it being Nazi apologia?

 

Indeed, I would suggest that discussing why Nazis were not all that bad is pretty much the definition of being a Nazi apologist.

Debate whather all (or how many) supporters of Nazi ideology and in employ of Third Reich were inherently evil can be an intresting one, as is history and origins of national socialism (was it end of germano-protestant Sonderweg or one of the extremes in age of extremes?). But realy, are we going to discuss it on message boards dedicated to board and rpg games? Not to mention I have a very bad feeling you are luring people who disagree with you into saying something what could be twisted into the violation of some countries laws. Not to mention that most of your posts is barking the same replies, implying that you are not very tolerant towards freedom of expression of other people. 

 

In answer to your first question, yes you can. It was a distinct feel of Thrawn Trilogy and TIE Fighter portrayal of the Empire, as well as Empire of the Hand and Fel Empire, what is basicaly their schtick.

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Can you have a grey, not evil Empire without it being Nazi apologia?

 

Indeed, I would suggest that discussing why Nazis were not all that bad is pretty much the definition of being a Nazi apologist.

 

Yes, because the Empire isn't the Nazi party. It's fiction.

 

Wanting to rewrite the fictional aspects of Imperial rule is not the same as being a Nazi apologist. Suggesting otherwise is both shortsighted and deeply offensive, and it needs to stop now.

 

Personally, I think that it's more interesting if the Empire itself - or at least the upper echelons of it - remains rotten, but the majority of imperial citizens/soldiers/officials aren't good or evil - they're just people. Some of them believe in what they are doing, some won't. And the vast majority of them are unaware of the terrible things going on behind the scenes. (Which is why removing these terrible things still works! It's just not my preference)

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Wanting to rewrite the fictional aspects of Imperial rule is not the same as being a Nazi apologist.

 

I would suggest that taking one of the more prominent 'Nazis are bad' works of the twentieth century and playing up the cool aspects of Nazism (being an arrogant young man marching up and down in a sharp uniform is fun!) and playing down its downsides (having lots of arrogant young men marching up and down in sharp uniforms is dangerous) is indeed Nazi apologism.

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Wanting to rewrite the fictional aspects of Imperial rule is not the same as being a Nazi apologist.

 

I would suggest that taking one of the more prominent 'Nazis are bad' works of the twentieth century and playing up the cool aspects of Nazism (being an arrogant young man marching up and down in a sharp uniform is fun!) and playing down its downsides (having lots of arrogant young men marching up and down in sharp uniforms is dangerous) is indeed Nazi apologism.

 

I would ask, how can you connect adjustment of evil Empire from the fictional universe which actualy never happened long time ago in the galaxy far far away ,for roleplaying use, to the apologism of Nazi ideology. 

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How do you make the case for the Empire without also making the case for Nazism?

By being able to separate work of fiction and real world. By understanding that human nature is not inherently good or evil but could be swayed both ways, By learning that black and white morals and sheer intolerance might bring more strife than peace. By mature attitude towards possibilities of roleplaying. 

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So we want understanding for Nazis?

 

They didn't know. They just liked the marching and the sharp uniforms. Everyone else was doing it. It was their culture.

 

Excuses. Do we really need excuses for Nazis?

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So we want understanding for Nazis?

 

They didn't know. They just liked the marching and the sharp uniforms. Everyone else was doing it. It was their culture.

 

Excuses. Do we really need excuses for Nazis?

Your attitude right now is directly related to why people think it's okay to let any Muslim die in the War on Terror, and why people think it's okay to hold terrorists without trial for as long as the government pleases. Black and white morals are the cause of far more strife and suffering than trying to view other people as people and take consideration for why the actions of those they are associated with are not necessarily their own.

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Can you have a grey, not evil Empire without it being Nazi apologia?

Yes, because the Empire isn't the Nazis. It's an imaginary government base in part on the Nazis.

One could deemphasize the Nazi-inspired portions of the Empire and emphasize the other portions. In my opinion you can't go very far in that direction without losing the "Star Wars feel."

Edited by lstyer

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Star Wars glorifies slavery. Droids are self aware sentient beings. Droids are intelligent and possessed of Free Will. Droids are owned property. QED Star Wars glorifies slavery.

Where is the moral outrage about this?

The Empire are not Nazis. There are many parallels, but they are not co-equal. For one thing the Empire is fictional.

I have a friend who grew up in Austria during the Thirties and Forties. He told me that most adult men in Austria and Germany in those times joined the Nazi Party. Not because they agreed with Nazi ideology, but simply because if you wanted employment, housing, medical care, education, etc you needed to have a Party membership card.

I believe for most people life under the Empire works much the same way. One may or may not agree with Imperial policy, but they are the government. They keep order, provide education and social structure.

Was everyone in Stalinist Russia evil? That I think is at least as apt a comparison for the Empire.

Star Wars is pro-Rebel because George Lucas is an American and is reselling America's Foundational Myth. It would be very easy to portray the rebels as terrorists and traitors. The Death Star attack on Alderaan? An unfortunate necessity to deal with a nest of outlaws and traitors. No different really to the US atomic bombing and obliteration of the civilian populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The fate of the Wookies? That is a parallel to the fate of the Native American people's under the US government.

I could go on. It is very easy to recast Star Wars and modern history with the US playing the role of the Empire, or with various terrorist and rebel groups standing in for the Rebellion.

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You guys are making me depressed and not wishing to play at being either a Rebel or an Imperial. That's counter to the point of escape into a fantasy scifi RPG. Enough with the real world dark analogies. Go have fun playing whatever version of Star Wars you want and stop over-anaylizing and comparing it to the crappy world we live in.

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Sturn that is exactly the point of my last post. It is possible to cast either, both or neither side as the "good guys" or the "bad guys",

In the end Star Wars is best as escapist space fantasy soap opera. Well, space opera, the soap opera episodes were kind of not so good. But it should be escapist fun.

If your group is having fun with the game I don't care if Stormtroopers start wearing hot pink armour and singing Care Bears songs. It will be very odd Star Wars, but as long as you are enjoying it...

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I'm confused - I remember ErikB liking the 40k RPGs, and in those games, you actually play Space Nazis, especially with Dark Heresy, and play ubermensch in Deathwatch.

 

Does this mean people who enjoy Warhammer 40k, and like the Imperium, are all Nazi apologists?

 

I get the feeling Erik is the only one of us here having an issue with separating personal politics/real life and enjoyment of fiction, which is actually fairly worrying - more worrying than people wanting a more morally grey Star Wars.

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Wanting to rewrite the fictional aspects of Imperial rule is not the same as being a Nazi apologist.

 

I would suggest that taking one of the more prominent 'Nazis are bad' works of the twentieth century and playing up the cool aspects of Nazism (being an arrogant young man marching up and down in a sharp uniform is fun!) and playing down its downsides (having lots of arrogant young men marching up and down in sharp uniforms is dangerous) is indeed Nazi apologism.

 

 

Following this logic, anyone who likes the Rebellion is a terrorist apologist.

 

If you delve into the books, the comics, and even the new movies, you find a lot of material hinting or outright stating that Imperials aren't evil, just that their system was being abused by the leaders of the time.

 

Whether or not you consider that material to be "Star Wars" is up to you - but saying that thinking the Empire is a moral grey is akin to Nazi apologism because you choose to ignore parts of the lore is pretty weird.

Edited by scotth266

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Just wow! A Godwin thread.

 

But if i had to state my opinion, i would not compare the Empire to the N's.

From the fact that it's a fictional world. Star Wars isn't made to be compared to real life events.

And in the case of a grey Empire, a part from brainwashing it's population, enslaving xenos et dominating two thirds of the galaxy, they are pretty dark.

Edited by Naglareph

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Can you have a grey, not evil Empire without it being Nazi apologia?

 

Indeed, I would suggest that discussing why Nazis were not all that bad is pretty much the definition of being a Nazi apologist.

Not with the visual trappings that Lucas has pinned to it.

 

Ep IV was pretty clearly "Empire=Nazis" even to my then 7-year-old mind. Of course, that was shaped in no small part to Hogan's Heroes reruns.

 

And Hogans Heroes is as close to a Gray Nazi Reich as I've seen without endorsing Nazism. The "Nice Nazis" like Sgt Shultz are presented as inept but nice, and the competent ones as blinded by their own ideology.

 

Such a treatment for the Empire in SW could be fun, but it's certainly not going to be popular with many. And the "Empire=Nazis=Evil" level, well, those who help evil are not of need evil themselves, but definitely do evil, and evil PC's are a black mark upon gamerdom in general.

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Heres a different point of view, instead of likening the Empire to Nazi's (which were definately a bad thing), what if the empire were more akin to the Glorious Roman Empire, as the transformation of a Republic to an Empire is exactly what happened in Rome all those years ago.

 

Was that Empire all bad?  Did the upperclass see it as a sinister thing, with its massive millitary force and acceptance of slavery but with the introduction of roads, aqueducts, education and law and order?

 

So the question is: What have the Imperials ever done for us?

 

http://montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Life_of_Brian/10.htm

Edited by lupex

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The Empire = Romans was a lot closer to how I saw it. The Romans certainly engaged in genocide and evil acts. Though the Empire didn't exactly expand the infrastructure, except for maybe repairing what had been damaged in the Clone Wars.

Really, the whole analog discussion is pointless, you can pick any historical dictatorship to find parallels, and even some recent: Zimbabwe, South African apartheid, the British Raj, the Soviet Union... Herodotus (~450BC) records a conversation between Darius (future king of Persia) and his co-conspirators about what the best form of government is, and the conclusion is that democracies are inherently weak and always fall to dictatorships. They already had these experiences 2500 years ago. So even if Lucas had intended a specific Nazi parallel (which I doubt...I think some people have a limited view of history and automatically equate them with any dictatorship), the fragility of democracy and the lack of vigilance by its citizens remains the larger point. And even in the worst cases, the majority of the people inside the borders are simply normal folk trying to survive.

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How do you make the case for the Empire without also making the case for Nazism?

 

The same way you make the case for the Catholic Church without also making the case for Nazism.  Since the Empire is a fictional entity, and *not* actually a branch of the Nazi party, there is no innate connection between the two.  You can draw parallels, yes, but you can draw parallels between the Nazi party and the US in various ways as well, but that doesn't mean supporting the US is the same as supporting Nazis.  (And if you don't believe that parallels can be drawn with the US, try searching the internet some.  You'll find examples ranging from '*wildly* idiotic', to 'hmm, that's an interesting historical juxtaposition'.)

 

Again, the Galactic Empire is a *fictional* group of *fictional* people living in a *fictional* galaxy.

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That is a good line. The problem with giving up freedom for security is that you no longer have a say in who controls your fate, so if a new master you don't like comes along it is too late. You are putting yourself at the mercy of other people in perpetuity, and if you have met a cross section of other people, it should be obvious why that is a terrible idea.

 

Hence, I hope your new master treats you well, because having given up freedom, hoping your master treats you well is all you can do.

 

And yet, you're the only one here trying to take away anyone's freedom.  Careful, with that paint brush, you seem to be slopping some onto yourself.

 

As a side note, is there blocking functionality in this forum?  I think I've about had my fill of ErikB at this stage, so I'd love to be able to not see his self-righteous, his-way-or-die, abrasive drivel any more.

Edited by Voice

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As a side note, is there blocking functionality in this forum?  I think I've about had my fill of ErikB at this stage, so I'd love to be able to not see his self-righteous, his-way-or-die, abrasive drivel any more.

 

Yes, there is a way to Ignore users. Go into your profile and make the adjustment.

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As a side note, is there blocking functionality in this forum?  I think I've about had my fill of ErikB at this stage, so I'd love to be able to not see his self-righteous, his-way-or-die, abrasive drivel any more.

 

Yes, there is a way to Ignore users. Go into your profile and make the adjustment.

 

So there is!

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