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grover2000

A grey, not evil Empire?

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I mean, look at Thrawn.  Was his Empire *truly* a bad thing?  Or was it just "Not the Republic?"

If it wasn't a democracy then I would say it was a bad thing. Not that democracies are perfect or a utopia, but they are better than the alternative.

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I mean, look at Thrawn.  Was his Empire *truly* a bad thing?  Or was it just "Not the Republic?"

If it wasn't a democracy then I would say it was a bad thing. Not that democracies are perfect or a utopia, but they are better than the alternative.

Depends on who it is making the decisions - I'd argue that a non-democratic meritocracy or technocracy, or hell, a benevolent dictatorship (which is how Mon Mothma ran the Rebellion) is better than a democracy run and voted for by people who aren't well-educated enough to properly understand how the system works and what is best for them.

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Depends on who it is making the decisions - I'd argue that a non-democratic meritocracy or technocracy, or hell, a benevolent dictatorship (which is how Mon Mothma ran the Rebellion) is better than a democracy run and voted for by people who aren't well-educated enough to properly understand how the system works and what is best for them.

 

That's all great until the benevolence runs dry.

 

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill, 1947

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I mean, look at Thrawn.  Was his Empire *truly* a bad thing?  Or was it just "Not the Republic?"

If it wasn't a democracy then I would say it was a bad thing. Not that democracies are perfect or a utopia, but they are better than the alternative.

Depends on who it is making the decisions - I'd argue that a non-democratic meritocracy or technocracy, or hell, a benevolent dictatorship (which is how Mon Mothma ran the Rebellion) is better than a democracy run and voted for by people who aren't well-educated enough to properly understand how the system works and what is best for them.

The Rebellion wasn't a government. It was an organization that you could join or leave by choice.

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What are you talking about? The Empire is the good guys -- they bring order and stability to an otherwise chaotic and war-torn galaxy.  The Palpatine Administration was a good two decades of peace and prosperity.  Just look at the very end of the latest Special Edition of Episode VI -- you don't see demilitarized zones or communist hell-holes -- just perfectly civilized worlds that were just as vibrant and happy as they were in Episodes I, II and III:

 

10338167_gal.jpg

Looks more like Las Vegas than Pyongyang.

 

500px-Theed.png

Not East Berlin

Thats because of poor film making..remember, it was lucas who added these shots to the end of an already finished movie.

 

 

Shush! Crappy film-remaking is a double-edged lightsaber.

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I mean, look at Thrawn.  Was his Empire *truly* a bad thing?  Or was it just "Not the Republic?"

If it wasn't a democracy then I would say it was a bad thing. Not that democracies are perfect or a utopia, but they are better than the alternative.

Depends on who it is making the decisions - I'd argue that a non-democratic meritocracy or technocracy, or hell, a benevolent dictatorship (which is how Mon Mothma ran the Rebellion) is better than a democracy run and voted for by people who aren't well-educated enough to properly understand how the system works and what is best for them.

The Rebellion wasn't a government. It was an organization that you could join or leave by choice.

Actually, as you can read in the core book, it has both a military side, and a civilian government.

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I haven't read much of the fluff in the core book. I have been watching the OT for the past 35 years and have my own idea of what the rebellion is based on the movies and EU I have read.

Which civilian populations are they governing?

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Same thing happened in a game I was running. The Captain of the ship has become a recurring character who one of the characters actually admires a bit. After a second encounter, where they helped the Captain deal with the Pirates' base in revenge for being captured and nearly sold into slavery, he has since been promoted to command of a brand spanking new Nebulon B escort frigate.

 

Truthfully most of the time the characters in my group (which is a very EotE style group, except for the fact I am using d6) consider the Empire as more of an inconvenience, rather than evil. However, they are operating in the ass-end of the universe, with little Rebel activity and little blatant and heavy handed Imperial suppression. I have felt I need to start making the Empire a bit more evil just to get their characters to feel a bit more bad about it.

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If you look at the movies as a history you have to take into consideration the bias of the author. Obviously the author has a rebel/ new republic bias. So its not surprising that the big bad evil Empire is portrayed the way it was. I often joke that the Deathstar was actually the "Interplanetary Ore Extractor" and Alderaan was really an uninhabited planet the Empire was going to mine for ore. Unfortunately several environmental anti Imperialists snuck onto the planet.

Its a fun exercise to turn the timeline on its ear and look at it from the Empire's viewpoint.

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By it's very nature, a dictatorship usually means a somewhat limited scope of influence. If you show up on the radar, then heaven help you -but at the end of the day, we are talking about the desires, hatred, and ambition of a single being. Even if that being is near omniscient, it would rarely be concerned with the common everyday chump living his life. Bow your head, pay your space taxes, keep your mouth shut, don't be on Alderaan, and you're probably golden. The average denizen of the core either benefits too much or is too disconnected from the struggle to trouble themselves with the plight of the downtrodden.

 

This would extend into the ranks of the military and government as well. At least below the Moff level, the ranks of the empire seem to be filled with career bureaucrats. Bigoted, oppressive bureaucrats to be sure -but bureaucrats. Just don't fit the profile and have your paperwork in order and you won't be worth the stack of forms they have to fill out in order to process you. Think of Admiral Piett and the like. They've got to run around the galaxy to appease the whims of a crusty old man with halitosis, micro managed by a sociopath who throttles them by the bushel because he doesn't understand why you can’t thread a 2km long star destroyer through an asteroid field. They've got their own problems!

 

Those of you with a copy of the Core Rulebook (and who don't need to be concerned with spoilers) can take a look at the very end of Trouble Brewing to get a good example of this in action.

Edited by Zychon

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keep your mouth shut.... and you're probably golden. 

 

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
 
Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
 
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
 
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
 
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.
 
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

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Awesome sentence ErikB. It remember me a lot V for Vendetta.

 

Its pretty ambiguous and not accurate but from my point of view, anything that goes againts human (or other things XD) rights can be a potentially "evil thing".

 

Empire "probably" kicks almost all human rights and further more the alien rights XD

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keep your mouth shut.... and you're probably golden. 

 

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
 
Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
 
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
 
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
 
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.
 
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

 

Ah, the wonderful Martin Niemöller quote being misquoted as usual.

 

He only mentioned "Them" coming for the Socialists, then the Trade Unionists, and then the Jews. The Catholics were never touched as a group by the Nazis, because Germany had far too many Catholics and the Catholic Church made them far too much of a unified group for them to get away with it. That got added to the quote later on, when someone was repeating it in an American city with a substantial Catholic population so that the public would identify with it more. As for the Communists, Niemöller probably considered Socialist and Communist to be synonumous anyway.

 

Absent the Catholic quote, and it's pretty obvious that the majority of the populace can rest secure in the knowledge that as long as they play nice and don't join any radical rebel groups. "They" will never in fact come for them and will only come for people they don't approve of anyway. Which is how that sort of government manages to function. Knowing that it's only going to happen to someone else, and a someone else you've been taught is in the wrong, will have 90% of the Core Worlds feeling the Empire is right anyway.

 

As for the destruction of Alderaan- the reason it manages to turn a significant number of systems to the Rebel Alliance is because the Death Star was destroyed shortly afterward. Alderaan was one of the Core Worlds, supposedly part of the wealthy and untouchable Elite of the setting. Destroying it sent a clear message that nobody is safe. Had the Death Star still been around, then just as Tarkin said, fear of the battlestation would have kept everyone in line. Who's going to rebel if they know the Empire is willing and able to destroy their planet? No need for a blockade and/or invasion that will tie up limited Imperial resources while rebels flourish elsewhere, just BOOM.

 

Of course, once they made the point that nobody was safe, the means of taking that safety away was immediately destroyed. So, all these shocked worlds suddenly realised the true state of affairs at the same time that the big stick was taken away. Much as if someone threatened an unarmed crowd with a gun- and they suddenly realised his gun was now empty. Quick- jump him before he reloads (or builds another Death Star as the case may be).

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keep your mouth shut.... and you're probably golden. 

 

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
 
Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
 
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
 
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
 
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.
 
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

 

We get it Bad = Nazis = Empire. All Empire fans are bad and should feel bad. *crawls back to 40kRPG forums*

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I readed in a WotC book (not sure if canonical) that Empire told after the Battle of Yavin that the Rebel Alliance destroyed Alderaan and after that the Defensive Imperial Station called Death Star in the name of all the fallen in that terrorism act.

 

When I readed that I feel that probably it was wrong because the Tarkin doctrine is based on fear and this version is some kind of "ooh we are victims and we are weak". Probably that book was wrong.

 

Oh and TorogTarkdacil812 (long name XD) beware of pro-siths fans too, but don't worry, since the Clone Wars episodes, Darth Maul has lost a lot of fans XD

Edited by Josep Maria

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We get it Bad = Nazis = Empire.

 

Well it isn't like they were exactly subtle.

 

I dunno. Its Star Wars! One of the fundamental building blocks of pop culture. Do you really want a generation of kids growing up wearing little COMPNOR Sub Adult Group/Emperor Youth uniforms, goose-stepping up and down and talking about disposing of undesirables?

Edited by ErikB

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I dunno. Its Star Wars! One of the fundamental building blocks of pop culture. Do you really want a generation of kids growing up wearing little COMPNOR Sub Adult Group/Emperor Youth uniforms, goose-stepping up and down and talking about disposing of undesirables?

 

Oh please, what tripe?! Kids and people have been playing both sides for as long as there have been games. Cowboys and Indians, Cops and Robbers, Superheroes and Supervillains, Allies and Nazis, and, yes, even Rebels and Empire. If you didn't have anyone to play the bad guys the game wouldn't work. And sometimes in those games the bad guys won. Whether a one-shot or a campaign, if the group has fun, what does it matter? There is nothing wrong with people wanting the information for playing an Empire game, or for even wanting to play them in the first place. I doubt we'll get any kind of dedicated text to that effect, but as long as we get the mechanics it should be entirely doable. There is no right way or wrong way to play as long as everyone is enjoying themselves.

Edited by mouthymerc

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Eyes on the prize, folks. My point here is character motivation. Their reasoning may be flawed, but what actually motivates a specific NPC (or PC for that matter) to do what he does?

 

Taken in total, you've got no argument here that the Empire is an "evil" thing. It's deliberately been portrayed that way as part of the iconic and mythological feel of Star Wars. I'm not asking you to consider the motivations of every Stormtrooper minion that comes into play, but is every Imperial character a zealot, a despot, or a mindless slave? For me, this makes for a pretty static and boring setting in an RPG.

 

Giving important NPCs more depth makes the game interesting and can provide the PCs with additional paths to overcome obstacles and accomplish goals. This works the other way too, with Rebellion characters having to ride the line between preserving their own ideals and dealing with unscrupulous or nefarious "partners" for the sake of survival and success

 

In short, it's about creating drama -and since a mere eight words from my entire original post were taken out of context and followed by a quote about morality, I guess I should answer in kind:

 

I've got a story, ain't got no moral
Let the bad guy win every once in a while

 

I've got a story, ain't got no moral
Let the bad guy win every once in a while

 

Will it go round in circles
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky

 

-Billy Preston

 

 

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Kids and people have been playing both sides for as long as there have been games. Cowboys and Indians, Cops and Robbers, Superheroes and Supervillains, Allies and Nazis, and, yes, even Rebels and Empire.

 

Yeah, but the trick is to make sure everyone wants to be on the good guys side.

 

If you pick teams and everyone is fighting over the jackboots and the keys to the gas chambers something has gone dreadfully wrong.

 

So I'd suggest remembering the maxim - 

 

People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.

 

Anyone turning a blind eye to their neighbours being disappeared should soon find themselves denounced and disappeared themselves, either when their name is tortured out of one of their former neighbours, or because another neighbour denounces them in hopes of winning their own temporary security or just because the ISB haven't uncovered their quota of dissidents for the week and they need some warm bodies to make up the numbers.

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Yeah, but the trick is to make sure everyone wants to be on the good guys side.

 

If you pick teams and everyone is fighting over the jackboots and the keys to the gas chambers something has gone dreadfully wrong.

 

No it hasn't.

So I'd suggest remembering the maxim - 

 

People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.

 

Anyone turning a blind eye to their neighbours being disappeared should soon find themselves denounced and disappeared themselves, either when their name is tortured out of one of their former neighbours, or because another neighbour denounces them in hopes of winning their own temporary security or just because the ISB haven't uncovered their quota of dissidents for the week and they need some warm bodies to make up the numbers.

 

I'm more likely to remember this maxim. "It's just a game, let people use their imagination!"

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Yeah, but the trick is to make sure everyone wants to be on the good guys side.

 

If you pick teams and everyone is fighting over the jackboots and the keys to the gas chambers something has gone dreadfully wrong.

 

No it hasn't.

So I'd suggest remembering the maxim - 

 

People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.

 

Anyone turning a blind eye to their neighbours being disappeared should soon find themselves denounced and disappeared themselves, either when their name is tortured out of one of their former neighbours, or because another neighbour denounces them in hopes of winning their own temporary security or just because the ISB haven't uncovered their quota of dissidents for the week and they need some warm bodies to make up the numbers.

 

I'm more likely to remember this maxim. "It's just a game, let people use their imagination!"

 

 

Yep. This thread got a little too real world serious.

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Kids and people have been playing both sides for as long as there have been games. Cowboys and Indians, Cops and Robbers, Superheroes and Supervillains, Allies and Nazis, and, yes, even Rebels and Empire.

 

Yeah, but the trick is to make sure everyone wants to be on the good guys side.

 

If you pick teams and everyone is fighting over the jackboots and the keys to the gas chambers something has gone dreadfully wrong.

 

So I'd suggest remembering the maxim - 

 

People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.

 

Anyone turning a blind eye to their neighbours being disappeared should soon find themselves denounced and disappeared themselves, either when their name is tortured out of one of their former neighbours, or because another neighbour denounces them in hopes of winning their own temporary security or just because the ISB haven't uncovered their quota of dissidents for the week and they need some warm bodies to make up the numbers.

 

No, trick is to let everybody enjoy the game. I study history and I am from former eastern bloc. I know this stuff. But why the hell should I use in the game set in fictional universe, which is about having fun?

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