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Resisting the force?

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I'm trying to figure out if there's any way to resist a force power being used against you. It's not a big deal for it to be easy to effect the mind of a minion, but the way the rules look anybody who makes any successful roll against the base difficulty will have their powers work on anybody else, regardless of who that person is.

It seems like somebody with a high Willpower, especially PC's, should have some ability to not be mind controlled due to a couple successes. The movies specifically say "the force has a powerful effect on those with weak minds" I might have that slightly wrong). How does somebody with a strong mind resist.

Am I just missing something. I am pretty blind, so it's very possible.

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It's already and opposed Discipline roll. p 282.

How about things like using Force Move to disarm people? That can basically stop a combat before it starts, and perhaps should also be an opposed roll, due to it being actively resisted, but according to the rules, you can't resist having your weapon tugged from your hands.

 

What would that be, though? A Discipline test opposed by Athletics?

Edited by MILLANDSON

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It's already and opposed Discipline roll. p 282.

How about things like using Force Move to disarm people? That can basically stop a combat before it starts, and perhaps should also be an opposed roll, due to it being actively resisted, but according to the rules, you can't resist having your weapon tugged from your hands.

 

What would that be, though? A Discipline test opposed by Athletics?

 

That's how I'm gonna do it.  Otherwise FSEs run the risk of being completely broken.

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It's already and opposed Discipline roll. p 282.

How about things like using Force Move to disarm people?

 

For a Nemesis or PC (I wouldn't let rivals, let alone minions, resist such a Crowning Moment of Awesomeness), I'd go with Discipline by default -- however, I can see using Melee (or Lightsaber) if one is actually brandishing, or even Vigilance. There's a reason why Jedi and Sith actually fight with their sabers instead of just Force Disarming all day long -- it's a great trick on the unwary, but facing-down an actual Sith Lord is more likely to make you grab your saber so hard your hands bleed.

 

Also, disarming someone shouldn't end or forestall a fight -- unless the narrative feels like it should go that way!  It worked for Vader in Ep5; for Luke in Ep6, not so much.  A rival can always have a holdout blaster (doing less damage); a minion can stand there with a dumb look on his face for a turn.  Either way, mission accomplished -- you've done something cool and moved the odds in your team's favor.

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It's already and opposed Discipline roll. p 282.

Thanks, I must have just missed that on my first readthrough. I am also pondering sense. If my thief has invested a ton of exp into being sneaky, I don't find it fair that one basic sense roll can undo it. I might come up with something like discipline or willpower to remain undetected. Similarly, I am going to be careful about letting them read the minds of nemesis level bad guys without some chance of resistance.

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Similarly, I am going to be careful about letting them read the minds of nemesis level bad guys without some chance of resistance.

Remember that reading minds only trolls the surface thoughts of a target, if successful. So as a GM you should let them get something useful, but they shouldn't automatically download the schematics for the Death Star. It's a clue or understanding device, not a cheat code.

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1. Assuming your thief is a PC, this really isn't an issue. Skill checks, even against NPCs, aren't generally framed that way.  The way I'd frame a PC sneaking up on even a force sensitive NPC nemesis would be as an opposed roll vs. Vigilance or Discipline -- that the cat is force sensitive just flavors the outcome.

 

2. Sense only pulls emotions and surface thoughts, neither of which defeats the nemesis, but can certainly move the story along.  If you want to make a check, make it Discipline vs. Discipline or Cool.

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Most of the time it won't be a big deal. I freely admit I am being a bit nitpicky with far fetched hypotheticals. My mind just decided to obsess on this particular subject. Our game will be co-GM'd with me and a friend, alternating story arcs so we both get a chance to play, and I don't think anybody in the group is planning to go forcey.

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It's already and opposed Discipline roll. p 282.

How about things like using Force Move to disarm people?

 

For a Nemesis or PC (I wouldn't let rivals, let alone minions, resist such a Crowning Moment of Awesomeness), I'd go with Discipline by default -- however, I can see using Melee (or Lightsaber) if one is actually brandishing, or even Vigilance. There's a reason why Jedi and Sith actually fight with their sabers instead of just Force Disarming all day long -- it's a great trick on the unwary, but facing-down an actual Sith Lord is more likely to make you grab your saber so hard your hands bleed.

 

Also, disarming someone shouldn't end or forestall a fight -- unless the narrative feels like it should go that way!  It worked for Vader in Ep5; for Luke in Ep6, not so much.  A rival can always have a holdout blaster (doing less damage); a minion can stand there with a dumb look on his face for a turn.  Either way, mission accomplished -- you've done something cool and moved the odds in your team's favor.

 

Why would you use Discipline to resist? How would having strong mental fortitude stop your weapon from being pulled from your hand?

 

It'd have to be a physical skill, such as Athletics, to make sense.

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It's already and opposed Discipline roll. p 282.

How about things like using Force Move to disarm people?

 

For a Nemesis or PC (I wouldn't let rivals, let alone minions, resist such a Crowning Moment of Awesomeness), I'd go with Discipline by default -- however, I can see using Melee (or Lightsaber) if one is actually brandishing, or even Vigilance. There's a reason why Jedi and Sith actually fight with their sabers instead of just Force Disarming all day long -- it's a great trick on the unwary, but facing-down an actual Sith Lord is more likely to make you grab your saber so hard your hands bleed.

 

Also, disarming someone shouldn't end or forestall a fight -- unless the narrative feels like it should go that way!  It worked for Vader in Ep5; for Luke in Ep6, not so much.  A rival can always have a holdout blaster (doing less damage); a minion can stand there with a dumb look on his face for a turn.  Either way, mission accomplished -- you've done something cool and moved the odds in your team's favor.

 

Why would you use Discipline to resist? 

 

All living things are connected to the Force.

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But you aren't using the Force on the person, but on the object. The person holding the item is trying to keep hold of the item, mental fortitude doesn't come into it.

As for why there's currently no roll to resist a Force Disarm, perhaps the developers felt that with said Upgrade being buried in the Move power tree (4th Row, so not easy to get to without a decent investment of XP) and with Force-users being a minor factor in EotE games, it wasn't that big a deal to worry about.

 

Also, we see Darth Vader very easily force-grabbed Han's blaster out of his hand in ESB, so that even brings up the question of why include a resistance in the first place if the only G-level canon evidence we have of this power is that it succeeds automatically.  As to why Vader didn't use it on Luke in either of their fights, Vader actually wanted to duel with Luke, to see just how capable a swordsman his son had become.

 

Personally, I think it's a valid concern.  While a GM can easily work around it (namely by avoiding solo BBEG fights or giving their baddies a back-up weapon to rely upon), it is a concern if the player abuses that option too often, particularly if they're within Short Range of the target, as they'd just need a single Force Point.

 

As for what to roll, I'd let the target choose either Brawn or Agility and make it an opposed roll vs. the Force-user's Discipline, with Brawn being a case of keeping a firm grip on the object in the first place to avoid it being snatched, while Agility is quickly recovering your grip of the object either just before or just after it slips from their grip.  Are the odds decidedly in the Force-users favor?  Yep, but that's not an issue with me because the player has spent a decent amount of XP to gain that ability (30 XP for the power with upgrades, at least 20 XP to become Force-Sensitive, plus any XP required to pick up ranks in Discipline).

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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As for why there's currently no roll to resist a Force Disarm, perhaps the developers felt that with said Upgrade being buried in the Move power tree (4th Row, so not easy to get to without a decent investment of XP) and with Force-users being a minor factor in EotE games, it wasn't that big a deal to worry about.

 

 

Also, we see Darth Vader very easily ****** Han's blaster out of his hand in ESB, so that even brings up the question of why include a resistance in the first place if the only G-level canon evidence we have of this power is that it succeeds automatically.  As to why Vader didn't use it on Luke in either of their fights, Vader actually wanted to duel with Luke, to see just how capable a swordsman his son had become.

 

Personally, I think it's a valid concern.  While a GM can easily work around it (namely by avoiding solo BBEG fights or giving their baddies a back-up weapon to rely upon), it is a concern if the player abuses that option too often, particularly if they're within Short Range of the target, as they'd just need a single Force Point.

 

As for what to roll, I'd let the target choose either Brawn or Agility and make it an opposed roll vs. the Force-user's Discipline, with Brawn being a case of keeping a firm grip on the object in the first place to avoid it being snatched, while Agility is quickly recovering your grip of the object either just before or just after it slips from their grip.  Are the odds decidedly in the Force-users favor?  Yep, but that's not an issue with me because the player has spent a decent amount of XP to gain that ability (30 XP for the power with upgrades, at least 20 XP to become Force-Sensitive, plus any XP required to pick up ranks in Discipline).

 

Excellent points, though I would also argue that Han Solo's brawn was not higher than 2, and I doubt he had more than a few skill points, if any at all, in Athletics.  I'm sure that if that was the opposed roll, Vader's assuredly much higher Discipline and Willpower would probably outmatch him almost every time.

And I also see the "Vader wanting to duel him" thing.  But, I'm just WAITING for a metagaming PC to pick up this power and then just use it on every single dude they fight.  I mean, I know I could just have them fight dudes that don't use weapons, but that severely limits my options, and I'd rather add something else for him to feel accomplished about overcoming than limit the options that we can use against him.

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As a rule I would probably give nemesis level badguys a chance to resist disarming, or some other powers.  With rivals it may depend on the circumstances and the overall dramatics of the situation.  Minions are just out of luck. 

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This got discussed on the "Alarming Questions, Part II" episode of the Order 66 podcast.

 

In short, the lack of a resistance is a deliberate decision choice, with the balance factor of Force-users being the XP cost to acquire their various abilities and that XP spent on boosting powers is XP not spent on increasing skills or moving up the talent trees towards that coveted Force Rating 2 or even Dedication.

 

Sam also mentioned that the GM has the right to say "Sorry, not gonna happen this time," should a power-gaming PC try this sort of trick in an attempt to sabotage a major encounter, with no roll required on the part of the NPC; the power simply fails.  Although in this case, I'd say that the GM should at least flip a Destiny Point to make the NPC immune to Force disarms for the rest of the encounter.  This at least gives the PC and the party some compensation in the form of a valuable resource.

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This got discussed on the "Alarming Questions, Part II" episode of the Order 66 podcast.

 

In short, the lack of a resistance is a deliberate decision choice, with the balance factor of Force-users being the XP cost to acquire their various abilities and that XP spent on boosting powers is XP not spent on increasing skills or moving up the talent trees towards that coveted Force Rating 2 or even Dedication.

 

Sam also mentioned that the GM has the right to say "Sorry, not gonna happen this time," should a power-gaming PC try this sort of trick in an attempt to sabotage a major encounter, with no roll required on the part of the NPC; the power simply fails.  Although in this case, I'd say that the GM should at least flip a Destiny Point to make the NPC immune to Force disarms for the rest of the encounter.  This at least gives the PC and the party some compensation in the form of a valuable resource.

 

That is a great solution!

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Flipping a destiny point to resist any force power would be kind of short, sweet and easily implemented without potentially lacerating other parts of the rules system.  Yeah PCs could attempt to spam their powers so that the GM would spend them to protect their Nemeses or other important goons.  But each turn spent blowing one of my Darkside Points...is another round without being picked up and flung like a rag doll to Medium Range vertically.

 

It's sort of like this:

vpgv47.jpg

 

 

Eventually they'll just poke you in the eyes with two fingers, but you have a bit more tactical breathing room until then.

 

 

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That is a great solution!

 

Indeed. It's a fairly standard method of "paying" for GM-fiat in games that have some form of narrative currency.  A way of saying, "I'm screwing you guys over, so here's a Hero point."

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So is the Destiny Point flip supposed to negate the power for the whole encounter?  If not what happens when you have no more Destiny Points to flip?  Does the Nemesis suddenly get disarmed?

 

I'm sure I'm in the minority here but this just seems like poor design to me.

 

Why does the power always work against the Gamorean minion with a Brawn of 4 but never works against the Nemesis Slicer with a Brawn of 1.  The answer is GM Fiat and I don't care if this is a "narative" game... that's going to make players unhappy.  They invested XP into this power and it functionality is up to the whim of the GM. 

 

The idea that you're spending XP that could be spent of skills or talents doesn't justify the "auto success baring GM Fiat."  What you get for your XP is the power to do something no one else without the Force can do.  Having the ability to disarm form range is a cool power, why not make it an opposed check.  Besides adding in some game balance you get to add in the narative dice which I think it the strongest concept of the system

 

Just by 2 credits here.  I know how I'm going to house rule it.  I just hope that FFG uses Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion as a playtest for the Force so that they can make adjustments come Force and Destiny.  As people play I hope they post their experiences with the Force Powers as I think this will be invaluable to FFG. 

 

Wraith428

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First of all it is not a design of the core mechanics - this is pure GM fiat to utilize a Dark Side Destiny point to gain immunity to a force power, it is not RAW.

 

Personally I would use it only if it were an issue, the player abusing the power for example. 

 

Also, there are several places in the core book that explicitly state that the final decision on a lot of things is left to GM interpretation and a GM ruling.  So the core rules encourage GM fiat - in fact it can be argued the entire narrative structure can be interpreted as encouraging GM (and Player) fiat.

 

I have never once got the impression from EotE that just because a PC invested in something means that it always works the way it is supposed to.  Frankly I enjoy that idea because after playing Saga for so long and dealing with the easily uber characters that system could create, it will be nice to actually see some challenges and play to an ever changing and engaging story.

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When did it stop being the default assumption that everything that happens in an RPG happens because that is the way the GM allows it? I have been gaming since 1977 or there abouts and it was always assumed that GM fiat could, would and should occur.

If the GM abuses this power to screw over the players then they are a bad GM and will likely find themselves without players.

If a munchkin player gets out of hand "gaming the system" to the point where the game is no fun for anyone else at the table have a talk with them, tell them to reign it in or leave the group.

Life is too short to spend it playing games that aren't fun with people you don't enjoy playing with.

Don't worry about RAW worry about FUN!

As for resisting the Force, there are plenty of examples of strong minded people being able to resist the Force. Force disarm likely works best on those who are not expecting it. Solo was caught by surprise when Vader tugged away his blaster from across the room. It didn't happen during the light saber duels because both participants we on guard and keeping a good grip on their weapons.

A stealthy thief trying to sneak up on a Force sensitive might be detected as a ripple in the Force. "Somebody is sneaking around out there..." Not "The Rodian thief is hiding behind the crate of Bantha chow trying to sneak past you onto the freighter..."

I am pretty sure at least one group of troopers on the Death Star reacted to Kenobi's presence but decided it was nothing.

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When did it stop being the default assumption that everything that happens in an RPG happens because that is the way the GM allows it? I have been gaming since 1977 or there abouts and it was always assumed that GM fiat could, would and should occur.

It's probably a result of D&D 3rd Edition and their manic attempts to have "a rule for everything and everything has a rule."  In retrospect, a lot of 3rd Edition D&D is a rules laywer's dream come true (even if they do try to ignore the "Rule Zero" caveat).  I think games like FATE and Mutants & Masterminds (particularly 2nd & 3rd edition) have the best balance, in that the GM can liberally make use of GM fiat, but the player(s) get something in return.

 

But that's a whole different topic...

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