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Alox

Nimble talent needs to go

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Agility gives you avoidance (and is also a very strong offensive characteric to boot). It should not be possible to also use agility to get damage mitigation. It is the core task of toughness, don't mess with it.

 

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I don't agree, I like the talent and think its quite flavorful- it helps with the change to dodge (as an opposed test) so that the agility heavy builds don't get destroyed. 

 

Maybe replace TB by AB instead of adding both? 

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I don't agree, I like the talent and think its quite flavorful- it helps with the change to dodge (as an opposed test) so that the agility heavy builds don't get destroyed. 

 

Maybe replace TB by AB instead of adding both?

Agility is used for Initiative, Dodge, and a number of skills.

Toughness has little beyond TB damage soak. Din't take that from him, it's all the poor guy has.

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No, as in for the purpose of the Nimble talent :P

 

Well toughness is a lot more important in terms of gaining fatigue in this system, as everything and its grandmother now gives fatigue. 

 

So a low toughness/high agility build would get tired out quickly. 

 

A good way to also mitigate that talent is to have any fatigue gained on toughness during combat apply to agility as well and vice versa. 

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I don't agree, I like the talent and think its quite flavorful- it helps with the change to dodge (as an opposed test) so that the agility heavy builds don't get destroyed. 

 

Maybe replace TB by AB instead of adding both?

Agility is used for Initiative, Dodge, and a number of skills.

Toughness has little beyond TB damage soak. Din't take that from him, it's all the poor guy has.

 

You need to poison/expose to radiation your PCs more often :P

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Well, dodge being an opposed test means that just passing the evade test isn't enough to survive- and if they end up have only a bit of toughness because it costs quite a bit of exp, they will die more often. 

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That's like noting that Defence Damage might only soak some damage. Evade shouldn't by itself be enough to survive -- and neither should Defence Value. When a player considers focusing on either of agility or toughness, that choice should have consequences that aren't completely undone by simply taking a Talent.

 

The question therefore is to what degree taking Nimble avoids the consequences of choosing Agility over Toughness. Nimble straight up replaces the Toughness bonus component of Defence Value with your Agility bonus. Setting aside Athletics, that's half of what Toughness does in DH2E eaten up by Agility.

 

It is worth noting, however, that Nimble does have a limitation -- armor entails Ab caps. So characters relying on Toughness will still get more out of their Defence Value, assuming they have the sense to wear heavier armor, than ones relying on Agility + Nimble.

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That's a good point- and its true that, with the system as is, actually, soaking is not really an option- as one single point of damage getting trough is enough to hurt considerably. 

 

A tankier built starts off with that in mind, so is capable of dealing with this. 

 

An agility build would need to dodge consistently to keep up with this. Which is no longer really possible. especially if they devote any  amount of AP to attack or aim just to keep a couple of dodges available. 

 

Not saying that an agility based character should be able to tank- but a couple more points of soak as a (relatively) high level talent helps out considerably. 

 

Nerf it, sure- but as you mentioned, without wearing armor, these guys still need to be able to survive at SOME level and not have every glancing hit that inflicts 4 damage wound them because they only have a toughness value of 30~

 

Edit- I propose moving this discussion into the appropriate forums?

Edited by Saldre

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You're making a very similar point to one I made in another thread: i.e., that Evade is not overpowered.

 

That said, and "soak" might not be the right word for this discussion, Defence Value is really important because you do want a low base number for your wound effect calculation. Now, this is obviously more important the less wounds you have already taken. Defence Value becomes less crucial as you take more wounds.

 

What's interesting is that the argument that Defence Value is not that important is built around the idea that Evade is overpowered precisely because Evade allows you to avoid a hit -- and therefore a wound -- altogether while Defence Value more likely just mitigates the wound effect for this hit only.

 

Evade means that characters with high Agility are not necessarily more vulnerable than characters with high Toughness. As you seem to guess, it just means that these two types of characters cannot fight in the same way. Tough Guys need to lay down fire from behind cover. Agile characters should cautiously move up.

Edited by Manchu

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Having agility used as defence value, is the same as using toughness for dodge skill, maybe there should be a talent for this in the resilliance tree.

 

Or maybe we should let agility and toughness keep their role.

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Defence Value is a passive mechanic addressing what happens when a character gets hit.

 

Characters with Nimble unconsciously move their bodies so as to take as little damage from hits as possible.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

Again, the question is: does Nimble mandate ignoring Toughness in favor of Agility?

 

The answer is no for two reasons:

 

(1) Toughness is still a component of fatigue threshold

(2) Armor has Ab caps but not Tb caps

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What Manchu said.

 

The funny thing is, when I first saw the Talent, I immediately thought "wow, now the Eldar have become truly scary, as they should be!". Then I looked up the Eldar stats and not only does none of them have that Talent, but their Agility ain't that impressive in a system where humans can potentially reach 95 Ag.

 

(Eldars' Ag is still pretty impressive from the perspective of starting human characters, and it'd definitely make sense for them to have this Talent by default, at least the highly trained Aspect Warriors. But I can't help but think, with this sky high stat advancement, we're looking at Ascension-level stupidity again where a Death Cult Assassin can almost literally run circles around the most nimble Eldar).

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The answer is no for two reasons:

 

(1) Toughness is still a component of fatigue threshold

(2) Armor has Ab caps but not Tb caps

 

You are going to start with a fatigue treshold on 6 from the start of the game. To me it does not look like fatigue is thrown around casually. You need to fail fear test, get some wound condition or the GM simply decides you are fatigued for some reason. And the only cost of getting fatigue is double AP cost (and double time in narrative), which requires you are around 4 or higher on fatigue (7 or higher fatigue to get double AP on dodge in an agility build). So in my opinion fatigue is not the saving grace of toughness (and it even competes with willpower on this one).

 

Wear a mesh armor, will keep you happy till 89 agility. Only one point less than Carapace, but you do not have to put any xp into toughness. And mesh armor can be concealed, carapace can not. Much better for an undercover agent.

 

In ressiliance tree you can get meditation with willpower, sound con and die hard with 40 toughness, which is almost starting toughness. So unless you want to dig deep and get true grit and stuff... you don't need toughness.

 

Just get nimble.

 

Oh yeah, poison and radiation rolls... the horror. Maybe we should come up with a talent that lets you use agility vs those. :-)

Edited by Alox

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I feel like Nimble is a fine talent. Getting out of the way of danger seems more reasonable in a setting with lasers, exploding bullets, and plasma weaponry than being so macho it doesn't hurt anyway.

 

Getting out of the way is called dodge, a fine agility skill. You can even get +30 on it rather cheaply.

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You need to fail fear test, get some wound condition or the GM simply decides you are fatigued for some reason.

And you need to be successfully attacked to use Defence Value ...

 

 So in my opinion fatigue is not the saving grace of toughness (and it even competes with willpower on this one).

And Toughness (Agility with Nimble) competes with armor when it comes to Defence Value ...

 

Seems to me that your argument that Fatigue does not matter boils down to assuming the GM will not use it. You could similarly argue that Defence Value won't matter because the GM won't write many combats. Truth is, GMs should use fatigue and if they don't ... it's not the rule set's fault.

 

Wear a mesh armor, will keep you happy till 89 agility. Only one point less than Carapace, but you do not have to put any xp into toughness. And mesh armor can be concealed, carapace can not. Much better for an undercover agent.

Mesh armor isn't bad but it isn't great as far as armor goes -- unless you have Nimble. But even then, it's pretty tough to get (-40). Plus, whether armor stats are good or broken is a different problem for a different thread.

Edited by Manchu

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 So in my opinion fatigue is not the saving grace of toughness (and it even competes with willpower on this one).

And Toughness (Agility with Nimble) competes with armor when it comes to Defence Value ...

 

Seems to me that your argument that Fatigue does not matter boils down to assuming the GM will not use it. You could similarly argue that Defence Value won't matter because the GM won't write many combats. Truth is, GMs should use fatigue and if they don't ... it's not the rule set's fault.

 

I do think that fatigue matters. My point is that toughness will not prevent your strength or weapon skill from getting fatigued. It is only a matter of pass out treshold, and since you have two stats contributing to this it is not only a toughness thing per se. Especially since most people are likely to have a decent willpower or they will flee when it is really bad to do so!

 

I still stand behind my original post: Damage soaking is the holy ground of toughness, and agility is trespassing with nimble! :-)

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How about this then: 

 

Failing a dodge test with one or two degrees of failure allows to to soak an extra one or two damage points- so failing a test won;t be as catastrophic, but failing with three degrees or more won;t have any effect at all. 

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I think it's worth noting that Nimble is very deep in the defense tree. Particularly for those guys who can buy Toughness cheaper than Agility, it just won't pay to invest so much in Nimble when they can invest in Toughness instead. 

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But agility is used for alot more then toughness. Toughness is useful against fatigue and the like, which seems to have gotten more focus now then before. But agility is used for movement, dodge and heck even medicae! And suddenly they get defence too?

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You need to fail fear test, get some wound condition or the GM simply decides you are fatigued for some reason.

And you need to be successfully attacked to use Defence Value ...

But attacks are going to occur far more frequently than fear checks are. Attacks will occur in every combat, and the likelihood of getting hit over the duration of one combat are quite high. Fear checks are unlikely to occur even once a session. Ok, Wound effects are going to be more common than that, but by the time you have suffered from more than a couple fatigue is probably not going to be the worst of your worries. Random fatigue assignment? Unless in a particularly hard environment, or exertion for extended periods of time, unlikely.

 

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