FAQ & Heavy Laser Cannon + Target Lock?

[drporter 0]

So, does this mean you may obtain crits with target lock?  Thanks for your insight on this one...

 

Q:

If a ship attacks with Heavy Laser Cannon,

can it modify attack dice to get a

result?

A:

Yes. All

results on attack dice are immediately

changed to

results after they are first rolled, and

then the dice may be modified as normal.

Edited July 25, 2013 by drporter

[Buhallin 4,563]

You could always get to a crit with Marksmanship.  Whether or not you can reroll directly to a crit is somewhat fuzzier.  I've landed in the camp that applies "first rolled" to any roll of the dice, so think you'll have to change after a reroll as well.  But they managed to take an issue that we were pretty clear on and make it more confusing

[drporter 0]

Thanks, I haven't seen this get much attention in the "Confusing FAQ" thread yet...

[nimdabew 156]

HLC changes crits on the reroll because you change the crits to a hit immediately after you reroll the die. The reroll counts as a dice roll. 

 

ETA: I want to update my interpretation. In fact the rules do say that a target lock or a re-roll count as modifying in step 3 of an attack, not as a roll. Reading the FAQ, this falls in line with a target lock/Krassis counts the HLC crit, and the change (crits) to (hits) only applies to when the dice are first rolled. 

Edited August 27, 2013 by nimdabew

[nimdabew 156]

Also, modifying dice are a seperate line item in an attack roll vs rolling or rerolling dice. 

[mege 98]

I've always interpreted this as HLC only changes CRIT to HIT on the first roll of the dice. It doesn't change every reroll (which is really just a 'random modification' of the dice, not really rolling in the HLC's sense of the word).

[Parakitor 5,654]

I've always interpreted this as HLC only changes CRIT to HIT on the first roll of the dice. It doesn't change every reroll (which is really just a 'random modification' of the dice, not really rolling in the HLC's sense of the word).

Good point. It's not really a second attack. Hmm...I could go either way on this one. Just baffles me why in the FAQ they'd say "first rolled," which has been debated at length on other sites.

[Mu0n729 3,246]

I think you lose crits on the very first roll, but you can get crits on a second pass, either with marksmanship, or a target lock. Why would they include the word "as normal" if it was not the case? Why would the rule be recursive on itself? That would be a notch too obscure.

[DailyRich 3,346]

HLC says, "Immediately after rolling your attack dice."  Doesn't mention first attack or second attack or re-roll, just rolling the attack dice.  Since using Target Lock leads you to rolling attack dice, I don't see how HLC's text doesn't apply here.  You can still use Marksmanship after you're done rolling dice.

[ziggy2000 169]

HLC says, "Immediately after rolling your attack dice."  Doesn't mention first attack or second attack or re-roll, just rolling the attack dice.  Since using Target Lock leads you to rolling attack dice, I don't see how HLC's text doesn't apply here.  You can still use Marksmanship after you're done rolling dice.

The confusion is coming from the FAQ entry which states that the HLC ability happens when the dice are "first rolled, and then the dice may be modified as normal." Some are interpreting the phrase "first rolled" as meaning only the initial attack roll (Step 2 of the Combat Phase), and "modified as normal" is talking about Step 3, which includes "adding die results, changing die results, and rerolling dice."

 

We always played it just like you said, in the strictest interpretation of the HLC text. But as Buhallin said above, the wording of the FAQ ruling has muddied the waters a bit.

[dbmeboy 807]

To be fair, how it treated rerolls was always ambiguous but there was at least a general consensus in the community. The FAQ just makes the consensus opinion a bit more doubtful. They really should have been more direct in that answer.

[KineticOperator 2,534]

Modified is not rerolled, so this ruling simply allows you to modify dice after they have been effected by HLC.

 

It is clear the two are not treated the same way in general because dice that have been rerolled once may not be rerolled again, but may be modified.  Had the FAQ stated that HLC modified dice cannot be rerolled or modified, that would be different.  Also, had the FAQ simply said "after they are rolled" it would have been completely clear.  The choice to say "first rolled" creates some potential for confusion, but until they do resolve it I will stick with the wording on the HLC itself and modify every *Crit* to a hit as soon as it is rolled no matter whether that is a reroll or not.

 

Doing it that way at least has the advantage of not directly contradicting anything either on cards or on the FAQ, where allowing crits from rerolls does contradict the HLC card text.  It isn't a perfect answer for sure, and I would definitely not be surprised if a later FAQ proves me wrong, but I think its the best we can do at the moment.

Edited July 30, 2013 by KineticOperator

[Buhallin 4,563]

At the risk of starting another debate with KineticOperator, I'll point out that while modified is not rerolled, rerolled may be modified.  The FAQ entry says "...the dice may be modified as normal."  The "as normal" there means that any other restrictions or effects on modification (such as only being able to reroll once) would still apply.

 

If you think about it, it's actually an awesomely impressive ruling.  It takes real skill, dedication, and effort to take what should be a pretty simple operation and craft a response that can muddy the waters so badly we haven't a clue what to do with it.

 

I expect we'll have an answer to this one sooner than most.  Unlike a lot of the outstanding issues like blaster turrets or the Fettigator (which I expect won't see FAQ entries for another six months) Krassis+HLC is a very common build element that I'm certain we'll see at GenCon.  I may even run it myself   So I'm sure we'll be able to hit FFG up for a concrete answer on this one.

[KineticOperator 2,534]

Well, I hate to disappoint you Buhallin but I really don't have any idea what the ruling is supposed to mean so no argument from me.  Like you said, it took a simple operation and turned it into a muddied mess.

 

I just put out there how I would do it and why, but I couldn't fault anyone for disagreeing.  And I certainly don't feel confident enough to debate it.  

Edited July 30, 2013 by KineticOperator

[Buhallin 4,563]

Yeah.  If there's anything that should be obvious to anyone who's followed my journey through the X-wing rules, it's that I have an opinion on EVERYTHING.  The fact that I'm willing to shrug and admit I haven't got a clue on this one should speak volumes.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Buhallin

[Bazinga 24]

So using krassis or captain jonus ability to re roll the dice would not change a crit back into hit via the hlc?

[Sergovan 1,440]

What most players forget, myself included, is that once attack dice are rolled, it is the defender who gets first crack at modifying the dice (p11. "If the attacker and defender both have abilities that can modify attack dice, the defender resolves all of his abilities before the attacker".)

 

So with HLC, the attacker rolls his dice, and as per HLC card changes all crits to hits. Then the defender gets a shot at modifying those results. Once the defender is done, the attacker can now use his abilities, such as target lock and focus, to modify the dice and it is here that crits can happen.

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

I'll have to try to dig up a source, but I believe they clarified over the weekend that HLC only changes crits to hits on the initial roll of the dice - and NOT on rerolls or any special abilities or other modifiers.  So I believe if you reroll with something like target lock they clarified that it is not subject to HLC's text and any crits you get on the reroll would remain.  Hopefully the wave 3 FAQ will clarify their clarification officially.

 

Here we go, one of the Team Covenant guys cornered the game's creator at GenCon:
Heavy Laser Cannon vs. Reroll (Source: Robert M) With nowhere to run to, James Kniffen was finally forced to give an unambiguous clear answer to what happens on a rerolled die with the Heavy Laser Cannon.  The answer is that you DO get to keep the new result even if it is a critical result, without the HLC text changing anything after the reroll.  While I’m pretty sure I can hear my 8th grade English teacher screeching from here, the implication of this is that a reroll is not actually a roll.  So for X-wing, “roll” means the initial roll of the dice in Steps 2 and 4, and a Reroll is a Modification just like Add and Change. -

 

See more at: http://teamcovenant.com/buhallin/2013/08/20/gencon-revelations/#sthash.BAUhSPT9.dpuf

Edited August 26, 2013 by CrookedWookie

[CrookedWookie 1,258]

It is worded badly but I think it does fit in with the way they structured a turn.  
Declare Target - Roll Attack Dice - Modify Attack Dice

Step 3 says this: Players can spend

action tokens and resolve abilities that reroll or

otherwise modify attack dice results.

 

So what that tells me is that a reroll is considered to fall under the Modify Attack Dice heading, and is part of step 3, rather than backing up to step 2 and being a 'do over' of the initial roll.  Wonky or not, a close reading of the combat step breakdown makes it pretty clear to me that FFG has always viewed rerolls as a modification of the original roll, and not a roll unto themselves.

[KineticOperator 2,534]

It is worded badly, but I can certainly see the logic:

 

Roll does NOT equal Reroll.

 

For one thing, you cannot reroll a reroll.  For another, this.  Consistent, logical, but badly worded.

[nimdabew 156]

Hello Jeremy,

In response to your question:

> If a ship with a target lock and a heavy laser cannon shoots at a ship, may it re-roll and keep the re-rolled crit dice rolls?


Yes, you may modify the attack dice as normal after the initial roll. This means you could reroll or change dice to obtain crit results.

Thanks for playing!

James Kniffen
Associate Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games
jkniffen@fantasyflightgames.com

[Deltmi 786]

Clear and concise. Question answered.