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Ghengisgarber

To all nonbelievers

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I recently talked to a Marine Veteran of the Tarawa invaision. He told me that sometimes the Japanese snipers in the palm trees could not be spotted. Their solution was to bring up a jeep with a 50 cal mg and litterally cut down the palm trees with mg fire. He said that usually took care of the problem. He also said they could cut down a lot of palm trees with a few bursts, the only disadvantage was that it left a rather dense mat of jumbled , fallen palm trees.

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to kainarian, you missed a lot of the discussion about the value of the 50 cal mg, whether it was jeep, haftrack or other vehicle mounted. some forum members seemed to think that it was comparable to the German lt MG, or that it had no value at all.

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That would proberly be me.... ;-)

But the question still remains: "Hov would the inclusion of a specific weaponsystem improve the game experience?"

Making a Range 6 Firepower 8 Mg with rapid-fire and mounting it on a fast vehicle, sounds like an excelent way to cater to any superiority gene an american player might have, by way of slaughtering germans. It also sounds like an excelent way to ruin the game system.

ToI is an abstract game system. Units have generic stats, and it is not trying to portrait the relative effectivenes of various weaponsystems. Instead it uses unitabilities to give us tactical options. MG's are excelent at defence or to suppress out strongpoints. Mortars have their strengths etc.

I think a Jeep with an Mg ability is an excelent thing. But I dont think it needs to be more effective than the units already in the game. So Range 5 and Firepower 4 is fine. After all we do not even know how many men/mg/smg/rifles/etc are actualy in the squads. All we know is that one vehicle already have an mg, which historicaly was a 50cal. That vehicle has range 5 and firepower 4. So perhaps the german is overrated, or perhaps it just factors in that US troops were more prone to get their asses into hiding or something else.

 

PS: sorry - no palmtrees to shoot down with machingguns in ToI. Though it could be good to know what effect an Mg42 would have on a palmtree.

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Hefsgaard said:

 

PS: sorry - no palmtrees to shoot down with machingguns in ToI. Though it could be good to know what effect an Mg42 would have on a palmtree.

 

 

What was an MG 42, something like 7.92mm?

I'm no experet, but there's a waaay big difference between 7.92mm and .50 cal rounds, and what they can do, just based on what I saw way back in Desert Storm.

The .50 cal is a massive weapon, as far as MGs go. I know that I've read that the MG 42 had an incredible rate of fire, but there is a reason that .50 cals where the main armament of U.S. aircraft during and after WWII. I want to say that I also read somewhere that the .50 cal was also prohibited from being used to fire directly at human beings by the Geneva Convention as well...happy.gif

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Hefsgaard said:

PS: sorry - no palmtrees to shoot down with machingguns in ToI. Though it could be good to know what effect an Mg42 would have on a palmtree.

 

No palm trees at the "OSTFRONT".

 

...or at omaha beach. Muhahahaha!

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Hefsgaard said:

PS: sorry - no palmtrees to shoot down with machingguns in ToI.

What about clearing those darn wood hexes that are blocking my LoS? That's hardly overpowered, is it? lengua.gif

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Well i don't think it's banned now as one of our military's primary sniper weapons is the Barrett 50 cal. An operations card to allow an MG squad have the firepower of a .50 cal would be fun but i think you would need to restrict it's movement speed the bugger was a heavy weapon. That's why the .30 cal was our primary machine gun it was much easier to carry

 

Bjaffe

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The big difference between the .50 cal and the German mg42 besides the bullet,mg42 fired a 7.92, is the rate of fire the .50 was around 500-600 the mg42 1,400 that btw is rounds per minute fired i think you can mow down things faster with an mg42

bjaffe

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The way I look at it they have already a way to have heavy or light machine guns. 2 mg on a base is a heavy mg for all practical purposes. Why complicate things further? I like the simplified abstract rules TOI uses. It makes the game more fun to play than the old school military games.

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An M2 .50 cal. MG was (and is) primarily a vehicle-mounted weapon. With its tripod, T & E mechanism ( 120 lbs. total ) and heavy ammo (pick up a .50 cal. round in one hand and a 7.62 Nato round in the other - there's a big difference in weight and size), it is one very cumbersome bugger. A squad will not be humping something like that onto or across a battlefield under normal circumstances. A jeep with a mounted .50 would be a very tempting target and probably wouldn't last very long on a battlefield.  A tripod mounted .50 can't be fired very accurately as a "free" weapon, and requires the use of the traverse and elevation mechanism for accuracy. The gun also has to be sandbagged, because it has quite a recoil. 

A .50 cal weapon system that WAS used on many occasions in ETO with devastating effect in defensive situations was the quad .50 halftrack assigned to U.S. Army AAA battalions.  They could tear apart a wave of attackers, but they were also quite vulnerable to return fire. Most 50 calibers were also air-cooled, which means the actual rate of fire will be considerably slower than the cyclic rate of fire or the barrel will burn out. A .50 barrel has to be changed very carefully, i.e., screw it on, back it off to make sure the head space is correct. then the crew has to check the timing of the gun. All in all, it is a cumbersome, heavy weapon best used on a vehicle or in a static position. Its strengths (accuracy and hitting power) are balanced by its limitations.

Lighter MGs (.30 cal, Mg 42 and MG 34) were easier to transport, easier to conceal and easier to break down. The M60 MG that we used when I was in the infantry was, to a large extent based on the MG 42. The barrel was easy to replace, it was fairly light and quite accurate in a defensive position (with tripod, T & E mechanism). Accuracy decreased when the bipod was used.

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kaufschtick said:

Hefsgaard said:

 

PS: sorry - no palmtrees to shoot down with machingguns in ToI. Though it could be good to know what effect an Mg42 would have on a palmtree.

 

 

What was an MG 42, something like 7.92mm?

I'm no experet, but there's a waaay big difference between 7.92mm and .50 cal rounds, and what they can do, just based on what I saw way back in Desert Storm.

The .50 cal is a massive weapon, as far as MGs go. I know that I've read that the MG 42 had an incredible rate of fire, but there is a reason that .50 cals where the main armament of U.S. aircraft during and after WWII. I want to say that I also read somewhere that the .50 cal was also prohibited from being used to fire directly at human beings by the Geneva Convention as well...happy.gif

 

The .50 cal may have been the main post-war american armament, but the MG-42 was (with subtle modifications) used throughout the Cold war up to present. Known as the MG-3/MG-51/MG-74 it figures in the arsenals of european armies.

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Another thing people should keep in mind is that using the .50 to "mow down trees" etc. is the enormous ammunition requirements. 50 cal ammo was heavy... infantry didn't carry much of it around. It's my understanding that infantry squads more often carried the Browning .30's, and the .50's were HMGs mounted on vehicles more than anything. 

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