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HoyaLawya

Inn of the Kneeling Man plus melee keyword

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When does Inn of the Kneeling man check the strength of the character that was knelt? Is it when the character is knelt or at the point of triggering the response? In short, if I kneel a 2str character with the melee keyword to defend a challenge (pumping his str to at least 3 since there must be at least 1 opposing character attacking), can I then trigger the response on Inn of the Kneeling Man?

 

Thanks

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I find the timing of some of these effects un-intuitive, and the answer isn't all that clear. The best example we have here is the "Dreadfort/Winterfell Castle/Bolton Refugee" scenario in the FAQ, which would imply that you cannot use the Inn of the Kneeling Man, and the Sons of the Mist ruling from Damon, which would imply (to me) that you can. 

 

I did try to clarify the distinction between these two with a question submission, but the answer I received merely  confirmed the existence of these two rulings and that they did not conflict in any way. I wasn't able to make the distinction clear in my head, so I've attached that answer for you.

 

 

You have to ask what is being checked for, in the case of Son of the Mists it is checking on whether or not you played your last card from hand. Did this happen? Yes. Then you may trigger it's effect. It does not care about whether or not you have any cards in your hand when it is resolving because its trigger is still true, you did discard your last card.

 
Dreadfort is asking what is the STR of the character you just played.

 

 

Edited by -Istaril

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I would say at the time the character was knelt. You knelt a character of STR 2 or less. Under the same logic as the SotM answer, the Response shouldn't care what the character's STR is at Step 5, you met the triggering condition when the character knelt.

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I think the Sons of the Mist are still different from this type of scenario because "played the last card from your hand" is different from "your hand is currently empty" for the purposes of triggering the response.
 

The FAQ entry for the Dreadfort and a Bolton character is easily applicable to this scenario because it is checking for "character just knelt" and "strength 2 or lower".  Dreadfort checks for "character just played", "House Bolton", and "STR 3 or higher".  I'm just using the FAQ entry's explanation here.

 

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/70983-cyvasse-and-differing-strs/?p=693497 might be different because it is checking for "then" effect play restrictions before being able to move on to resolving the "then" effect.

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It's confusing, but I think what Damon has done here is draw the line for checking the play restrictions of the Response between a card's characteristics and a card's identity

 

Effectively, if the Response references the characteristics of a card in play, you have to look at the card as it is as the time the Response is triggered. But if the Response references an event or occurrence, you just look to see if that event/occurrence took place.

 

To illustrate the difference, think of the Magister Illyrio/Shadow Hatchling situation. When you bring a Shadow Hatchling out of shadows, a character enters play. If the appropriate adult version is in play, it immediately becomes a dupe, but that doesn't "undo" the event/occurrence of the character entering play. So you CAN trigger Illyrio's Response because a character DID enter play (even if it is technically gone by the time you can trigger the event).

 

But for fun, say that Illyrio's ability was "Response: after a character enters play during the challenge phase, choose a non-unique character. Until the end of the phase, that character gets -X STR and is killed if its STR is 0. X is the STR of the character that entered play." NOW when a Shadow Hatchling comes into play and attaches to the adult dragon, you get a somewhat different result, You can still trigger Illyrio (because the event "character entered play" still happened), but what will X be? The STR of the character at the time it entered play, or the STR of the character at the time the Response is triggered? Because of the "Dreadfort" rule, we know that it is the STR at the time the Response is triggered - and the "character" has no STR at that point (because it has been transformed into a dupe).

 

So I think that's the difference. Is the Response reacting to an event/occurrence, or is it referencing a current (and potentially changeable) characteristic (STR, icon status, house affiliation, etc.)? The "Dreadfort" thing can make the waters a little murky because it is dealing with BOTH in the same phrase. Dreadfort is usable after the event/occurrence of playing/taking control of a character, but it is also referencing current (and potentially changeable) characteristics (the House Bolton trait and the character's STR) - so it's easy to confuse the two if THAT is the example you are holding up. To illustrate the difference, I'd point to the Illyrio/Shadow Hatchling example and its alternate (the alternate was a real effect from the CCG days, by the way) that I described above.

 

With that difference in mind, we're going to have to take Damon's word for it that "play the last card from your hand" counts as an occurrence/event, and not a reference to a current (and potentially changeable) characteristic.

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Check the STR when you trigger the Inn, not when the character is knelt - just like the Dreadfort/Winterfell/Refugee situation described in the FAQ.

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There's still no concrete answer here as it's all interpretation. I don't agree with Ktom, but I don't really care how it's played. This is one of those pick-a-convention scenarios, but it doesn't mean the convention is correct.

 

@J-Roel - I can't tell if I'm being mocked or Ktom is being mocked! Or both... Well played sir...

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@J-Roel - I can't tell if I'm being mocked or Ktom is being mocked! Or both... Well played sir...

 

lol, just teasing ;) It was a reference to your post a little while back with new terms to define the differing kinds of passive and constant effects

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