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Fresnel2

Variable Setting (Overload) + Good Quality

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A good craftsmanship ranged weapon with the Unreliable Quality, loses it (if it has it, see p167).

 

A good-craftsmanship M36 Lasgun normally applies no benefit - since it is already Reliable (p167).

 

However, in the Overload setting the M36 Lasgun gains the Unreliable Quality (p175).

 

Therefore, in Overload mode, a good craftsmanship M36 loses the Reliable Quality - but does not gain the Unreliable Quality. Jams on a 96-00.

 

A best quality M36 on Overload would never Jam - a jam counts as a miss. However, technically the gun has the Unreliable Quality and so misses on a 91-00. Imo this is a little odd...

 

Common Sense would suggest that Best Craftsman should apply the same benefit as Good with respect to losing Unreliable and gaining Reliable (as applicable) - in addition to Jams counting as a miss. 

 

Anyone disagree?

 

 

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OW Errata p. 37

 
Question: Can a weapon possess multiple instances of the 
                  same weapon Quality?
 
Answer: No. For instance, if a ranged weapon has the Reliable 
               Quality and gains the Reliable Quality from being a Good 
               Craftsmanship weapon, it only ever has a single instance of 
               the Reliable Quality.
 
               Thus, if it loses this Quality for any reason, it does not
               retain its “second” instance of the Reliable Quality
               (as it never had it in the first place).

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That is close to addressing this issue, but misses the mark.

 

Good Craftsmanship does not give a 2nd Reliable quality to a Reliable weapon - that was never suggested. In fact the RAW states it has no effect on a Reliable weapon - but a M36 on Overload is not a Reliable weapon, it is an Unreliable weapon.

 

This is about removing a temporary Unreliable Quality, not retaining the lost Reliable Quality.

 

Premise 1: A lasgun on Overload setting loses Reliable and gains the Unreliable Quality

Premise 2: If a Good Craftsmanship ranged weapon has the Unreliable Quality, the Good Craftsmanship rule removes it

Conclusion: A Good Craftsmanship lasgun on Overload, has neither the Reliable or Unreliable Qualities

 

The uncertainty lies in the fact that the Unreliable Quality here is situational. The rules on Craftsmanship do not address.

 

The Unreliable Quality can be applied situationally is a number of ways. A weapon exposed to a dust storm might gain Unreliable until cleaned for instance. Does Good/Best Craftsmanship protect a weapon from this and similar situational effects? To me it doesn't seem crazy to assume it does.  

 

Any FAQ entry on this would need to be:

 

Q: Does the Good Craftsmanship rule remove an Unreliable Quality that is temporarily applied to a weapon (for example, using the Overload setting on a M36)?

A: TBD

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How about this then. Taken from BC Errata but should be the same in OW

Question: If the Good Craftsmanship laspistol is fired on Overload mode (see page 153), does it now count as Unreliable or does the second Reliable Trait from Good Craftsmanship (see page 147) cancel this out?

Answer: No, the Reliable Quality doesn't stack.

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Again, close but a miss.

 

I don't have BC, but the OW rules on Good Craftsmanship must differ from BC - the questioner thinks he has redundant Reliable Qualities - which anyone reading the OW version would not.

 

Even the answer does not address my issue, as the question is malformed (from my perspective). The answer is trivially true - of course the Reliable Quality doesn't stack.

 

Strictly speaking the 'answer' is unclear. The questioner poses two options. The answer is a blanket 'NO'. So you might read the answer as saying both options presented are wrong.

 

Option 1: Does it now count as Unreliable: NO

Option 2: Does the second Reliable Trait cancel this out: NO

 

Common use suggests that a "Yes" was meant for the first option, but... 

 

 

The question should be:

 

Question: If the Good Craftsmanship laspistol is fired on Overload mode (see page 153), does the Good Craftsmanship (see page 147) rule remove the Unreliable Quality temporarily gained?

Answer: TBD

 

From a game point of view, allowing this advantage, gives a combat advantage to Good Craftsmanship lasguns. Currently there is none. Neither is the effect of reducing the probability of a jam by 5% (sometimes), so outside a typical advantage conferred by good craftsmanship. In fact it is completely in-line with the advantage we might expect.

 

I suspect that if asked this question the official FFG answer might be "no". However, it doesn't appear obvious why.

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Sorry to say but

OW and BC have exactly same craftmanship stats. And Lasgun variable setting.

And the wording exatly says on Lasgun Variable setting says: loses Reliable, and gains Unreliable

So again, Good or Best Craftmanship weapon shot at Overload setting still has Unreliable. Even if its just for that shot.

Quite same thing as Overheat + poor quality don't make your weapon overheat everytime you miss a shot. Unless you house rule it like that.

Edited by Routa-maa

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The BC FAQ entry does suggest the that the Unreliable from Overload isn't effected by Good craftsmanship - but the question is poorly formed and poorly answered. Also, there is no strict consistency between the lines.

I am mystified as how anyone might read the Overheat Quality and Poor craftsmanship rule, then conclude you overheat on any miss. So I have no idea how you think this relates to this issue. Can you elaborate?

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As does OW Errata and same answer. I would say that OW & BC are more closer to each other than Rogue Trader & Dark Heresy.

Oh just that everytime you fail to hit roll with poor craftmanship weapon it Jams and mix that with Overheat some can interpretate that its auto "Burn your hand or drop the weapon" everytime you fail BS test.

Well you could say that present "Jammed" rule is also interesting.

Lets say your Guardsman Smith (who has 3 chargepacks) has just reloaded his lasgun with his second clip but forgot to chant Litany of Reloading. Lasgun's Machine-Spirit goes bonkers and jams. So he ejects the clip, remove anything fouling the firing mechanism and then insert his third clip because his just reloaded, then full, clip number 2 has "mysteriously" emptied itself.

You say tomato, I say tomato.

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Well, the OW errata you point only says you cannot have double Reliable - which is irrelevant. You can tomato, but I say it's comprehension of written English...

As for this Overheat nonsense:

p167

Poor: Shoddy and dangerous to use, this weapon has the

Unreliable Quality. If the weapon already has this Quality,

then it jams on any failed hit roll.

See Plasma weapons (in the main rules) p174; none has the Unreliable Quality, therefore the second sentence doesn't apply to poor craftsmanship plasma weapons... Unreliable is a Jam on a 91-00. Overheat is on a 91-00 and any Jam result is an overheat, so Unreliable is a redundant quality.

Back to the Topic: Good craftsmanship guns lose their Unreliable Quality - where does the canon qualify this? I far as I can see, nowhere.

It may well be that the official answer is that the Unreliable from Overload trumps Good craftsmanship. However, I await word on this.

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I would agree with Routa-maa on the overload question.

 

"Question: If the Good Craftsmanship laspistol is fired on Overload mode (see page 153), does the Good Craftsmanship (see page 147) rule remove the Unreliable Quality temporarily gained?

Answer: TBD

"

 

No, of course - since the Reliable quality does not stack, so you do not go (1-1)+1. Meaning the weapon will not go from Reliable to Unreliable, which is then cancelled by the craftmanship bonus.

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Let me try one last time...

Q1: What quality does a M36 fired on normal or overcharge setting possess?

A1: The Reliable quality

Q2: What quality does a Good Craftsmanship M36 fired on normal or overcharge setting possess?

A2: The Reliable quality

Q3: Does a Good Craftsmanship M36 fired on normal or overcharge setting possess a better version of Reliable or a 'stacked' or redundant Reliable quality?

A3: No, no such thing exists in the game

Q4: What quality does a M36 on Overload setting possess?

A4: The Unreliable quality (see p175)

Q5: What effect does good craftsmanship have on a weapon with the Unreliable quality?

A5: A weapon of good craftsmanship loses the Unreliable quality.

Please identify which of the above Q&A you dispute.

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Everyone understands your question/argument fine, so please lose the attitude.

 

You are wanting to ultimately allow overloading while keeping reliable due to the craftmanship.

 

Per RAW (Including erretta) this is not possible because the reliable quality does not get reapplied due to craftmanship when firing on overload as the quality does not stack with itself. (In effect not doing the ((1-1)+1) math I did).

 

So you can either accept the RAW for what it is (Where it makes the most sense), or you can houserule it in if you are the GM, or with your GMs permission.

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"Everyone understands your question/argument fine, so please lose the attitude. "

I don't believe you do.

"Per RAW (Including erretta) this is not possible because the reliable quality does not get reapplied due to craftmanship when firing on overload as the quality does not stack with itself. (In effect not doing the ((1-1)+1) math I did)."

There is no maths involved in this, just logic. Q&A3 has no bearing on 4 and 5.

The RAW sets out rules and we should follow them. The Good craftsmanship rule does not ask us to consider what qualities a weapon *had*. The Good craftsmanship rule doesn't say that it only modifies the weapon in its default state - although that may be the intent. Barring clarification, the rule should be applied instance by instance. So every time you fire the gun, you check if it has the Unreliable quality. If it does the Good craftsmanship rule should be applied, removing this quality.

This is RAW. You can house rule it if you wish...

Edited by Fresnel

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The default state of the weapon is already Reliable!

 

As noted in the eratta the two Reliables do not stack or overlap, so you do not go from Reliable (Base Las weapon), to Unreliable (Overcharge), and back to Reliable again (craftmanship).

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As I have said many times, the weapon being Reliable as default (or Overcharge) is irrelevant.

Since you like maths, I will phrase it in mathematical terms.

WQ = Weapon Qualities (n,r,u)

n = No Quality

r = Reliable Quality

u = Unreliable Quality

V = variable setting (d,oc,ol)

d = default mode

oc = overcharge mode

ol = overload mode

WQ = f1(V) = Variable setting rule. Qualities vary as a function of variable setting mode.

f1(ol) = u

WQ = f2(WQ) = good craftsmanship rule. Quality varies as a function current Quality

f2(u) = n

Therefore:

WQ = f2(f1(ol)) = n

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Message from Max Brooke (FFG):

 

Let me clarify by going through a few points: 
 
-In the general case, if a ranged weapon gains the Unreliable Quality, it loses Reliable Quality (and vice-versa) as described before.
 
-In the specific case of the Lasgun Variable Setting rule, firing in overcharge mode means that the weapon "loses Reliable, and gains Unreliable." This supersedes the usual  way that Reliable and Unreliable interact, and means that the weapon ends up with Unreliable (because Reliable is explicitly removed first by the Lasgun Variable Setting rule,  and thus isn't there to cancel Unreliable).
 
-Good Craftsmanship says that the weapon "loses the Unreliable Quality. If it does not have the Unreliable Quality, it gains the Reliable Quality. If it already has this Quality,  there is no further effect…" This effect that removes the Unreliable Quality applies ONLY upon the "creation" (usually, for all intents and purposes, the acquisition by the Player  Characters) of the weapon. In the case of the Good Craftsmanship M36 Lasgun, the Good Craftsmanship checks if the weapon is Unreliable (it is not), then checks if it is  Reliable (it is), and so it has no additional effect. Therefore, if a Good Craftsmanship weapon gains the Unreliable Quality later (temporarily or permanently), it does not cancel  due to the Good Craftsmanship.

 

***************************
 
So there we have it. The Good craftsmanship effect is only applied once, at acquisition. Issue clarified.
 
Thanks Max!

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No you didn't.

 

Neither you or TormDK made the argument that the Good craftsmanship rule should only be applied at acquisition. At the time that would have been an unsupported position, but it would have been reasonable. It would have actually addressed the case I presented, which would have been nice...

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Was that an argument that needed to be made? It's very clear that craftmanship gives the bonuses only at item creation, since there are no "upgrade weapons as you go" talents or skills currently in RAW.

 

There is such a talent for Cybernetics in Hammer of the Emperor, which is nuts if you ask me - but not for weapons or non-cybernetic gear.

 

I do /tipmyhat for your math however.

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"Was that an argument that needed to be made?"

 

Clearly it was, as Max's answer demonstrates - this was the critical part of his answer (which he highlights in CAPS). What proceeded was just a recap of undisputed canon. He understood the my question, which you still appear not to...

 

Before Max said that, there was no authoritative reason to assume the Good Craftsmanship rule didn't apply situationally, post acquisition. Many rules in roleplaying games only apply situationally - it's hardly an unusual concept.

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