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wraith428

Resisting Force Powers

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Does anyone else find it funny that there are very few ways to resist Force powers?  For the most part if the character rolls enough Force points to activate the power it automatically happens.

  • Sense – Automatically sense emotions or surface thoughts.  No chance to resist regardless of Discipline (resisting) or Deception (put on a false face) or Willpower.  Nor does their appear to be any way for a target to tell this power is being used on them so that they could attempt to master their thoughts?  Even if they are Force Sensative themselves?
  • Influence – No way to resist strain damage.  If the power is activated it automatically happens.  Is this because this use of the Influence power us relatively weak compared to a blaster on stun which also does strain damage?
  • Move – This one has number of items.
    • Hurling Objects to Damage – There is a Discipline check but it is not an attack check.  Shouldn’t this be treated like a ranged attack?  Maybe it could use Discipline instead of Ranged (light) [not sure about that] but shouldn’t the target be able to take cover, use the Dodge or Side Step talents, and have his Defense bonus come into play from a Personal Deflector as these objects come flying at him?
    • Pull Object out of an Opponent’s Grasp – There is no way to resist?  No way to hold on to what you are carrying?  Force trumps my Brawn and Athletics ranks every time even if I’m holding onto my blaster rifle with both hands?
    • Fine Manipulation – Side Note… if Hurling Objects was treated as a ranged attack (as noted above) might fine manipulation instead let it be treated as a melee attack using the Melee skill?

 

It seems that by taking away the games standard dice roll mechanics from most Force powers you are losing the strength of the system.  Let’s say Sense’s ability to read surface thoughts required an opposed Discipline check.  You activate the power roll Discipline get one success, one triumph and three threat.  Now the dice can tell you a story.  You succeed, accessing the target’s surface thoughts.  You spend the triumph to have the target be thinking about a key piece of information you need.  But the GM spends the threat to say the target becomes aware that you are in his head.  You’ve gotten the information you need but he’s already speaking into his comlink calling for reinforcements to stop you at all costs… now you have a story. 

 

In the current system the character activates the power and gets access to surface thoughts.  What happens next is GM fiat?  Does he think about what you want him to?  Does that require a Coercion or Charm roll to make him think in that direction?  If the target becomes aware can he make a Discipline check to set up a block or does the GM just say that the guy has a disciplined mind and is thinking of esoteric Rodian poetry? 

 

Some observations.

 

Wraith428  

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I'm not all that concerned that there are few ways to resist Force power; to my mind, that seems to reflect the movies pretty effectively. In ROTJ, for example, Vader reads Luke's surface thoughts about his sister with no evident difficulty, and I don't see any reason to believe that Luke--a trained Jedi at that point--could resist in any meaningful way. More arguably, the same thing might be seen in PM when Yoda reads or guesses Qui-Gon's opinions about Anakin.

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Except that doesn't really reflect individuals like Jabba the Hutt and Watto. Remember, Obi-Wan said the Force can have a powerful affect on the "weak-minded" like the Stormtroopers. Well, what about the strong-minded?

 

This seems like a major hole in the system, unless there is something about the rules I am missing.

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I think you're missing the gist of how the Force powers work in this game.  Trying to influence someone's mind, or sense what they are thinking is still and Opposed check using the Force users Charm, Coerce, or Deception to influence or interact with other characters.  As an opposed roll you will be using the target's Discipline in most cases as the difficulty of the check. Specifically in the case of an Influence check its an Opposed Discipline check.

 

So that mentally tough Bounty Hunter with the 3 Willpower and 3 Discipline is going to generate 3 Challenge dice for the difficulty of this check... not an easy feat.  In fact look at the stats for Stormtroopers, they have a 3 Willpower and group skill of Discipline.  So you go all "These aren't the droids you're looking for..." on them and introduce 3 Challange and 1 Difficulty for the roll.  The Hutt Crime Lord in the back has 5 Willpower and 5 Discipline, that's 5 Challenge dice... good luck with that roll.

 

Yancy

Edited by Gallandro

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Except that doesn't really reflect individuals like Jabba the Hutt and Watto. Remember, Obi-Wan said the Force can have a powerful affect on the "weak-minded" like the Stormtroopers. Well, what about the strong-minded?

 

This seems like a major hole in the system, unless there is something about the rules I am missing.

Except nothing on the scale of Jedi Mind Trick is really in the game yet.  Sensing emotions seems to be relatively easy, since the scenario that was already discussed is really the best example of it.  As far as stealing weapons/etc, I see your point but the whole idea behind this game is that your PCs get to do heroic things, and becoming a Force-User in this book already has plenty of drawbacks, I think its only fair that players who do this would be rewarded with some nice abilites.  I would not be overly surprised if when Force Usage is expanded in later books, more restrictions are put on it, potentially making some abilities a challenged roll.

 

In any case, I think the short answer would be if you have an NPC you think is "Strong-Minded" then simply disallow any effects and if they get Threat/Despair on the attempt, make it so they laugh that you tried and raise an alarm or something.  I would imagine some Rival-level NPCs and certainly most Nemesis-level ones would be largely immune to more invasive will-based Force powers.

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I think you're missing the gist of how the Force powers work in this game.  Trying to influence someone's mind, or sense what they are thinking is still and Opposed check using the Force users Charm, Coerce, or Deception to influence or interact with other characters.  As an opposed roll you will be using the target's Discipline in most cases as the difficulty of the check. Specifically in the case of an Influence check its an Opposed Discipline check.

 

So that mentally tough Bounty Hunter with the 3 Willpower and 3 Discipline is going to generate 3 Challenge dice for the difficulty of this check... not an easy feat.  In fact look at the stats for Stormtroopers, they have a 3 Willpower and group skill of Discipline.  So you go all "These aren't the droids you're looking for..." on them and introduce 3 Challange and 1 Difficulty for the roll.  The Hutt Crime Lord in the back has 5 Willpower and 5 Discipline, that's 5 Challenge dice... good luck with that roll.

 

Yancy

 

 

Actually, there is no opposed roll to read their surface thoughts, just the expenditure of a LS pip (page 281). However, that's really easy to get around. Start thinking of something else.

 

But to influence them, you are correct. To make them accept falsehoods is opposed Discipline check, and any "buff" to social skills are rolled with the skill like normal.

 

-EF

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I think you're missing the gist of how the Force powers work in this game.  Trying to influence someone's mind, or sense what they are thinking is still and Opposed check using the Force users Charm, Coerce, or Deception to influence or interact with other characters.  As an opposed roll you will be using the target's Discipline in most cases as the difficulty of the check. Specifically in the case of an Influence check its an Opposed Discipline check.

 

So that mentally tough Bounty Hunter with the 3 Willpower and 3 Discipline is going to generate 3 Challenge dice for the difficulty of this check... not an easy feat.  In fact look at the stats for Stormtroopers, they have a 3 Willpower and group skill of Discipline.  So you go all "These aren't the droids you're looking for..." on them and introduce 3 Challange and 1 Difficulty for the roll.  The Hutt Crime Lord in the back has 5 Willpower and 5 Discipline, that's 5 Challenge dice... good luck with that roll.

 

Yancy

 

 

Actually, there is no opposed roll to read their surface thoughts, just the expenditure of a LS pip (page 281). However, that's really easy to get around. Start thinking of something else.

 

But to influence them, you are correct. To make them accept falsehoods is opposed Discipline check, and any "buff" to social skills are rolled with the skill like normal.

 

-EF

 

 

You're right of course... bad sentence structure on my part. 

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With sense it is as clear as it can. Page 281.

- some species are more resistant to force powers.

- some species are immune

- sense allows only read emotional state and surface thoughts resulting imperfect snapshot of anothers mind and cannot call information on demand.

GM should allow access to valuable information.... However sense should not allow automatic win situations but provide information how to proceed. Should help them with their work not do their work for them.

Influence has checks with control upgrade otherwise just strain is possible.

Move Control 2 allows pulling objects from secure mountings, or opponets grasp with dicipline. So if force user can rip vehicle mounted blaster repeater loose with move it should also be enough to rip anything out of even wookies hands.

Move and damage... Damage is resolved following all the rules for ranged attacks p. 284. So I would say cover and other defensive benefits should apply as opposing pool for the required dicipline throw.

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With sense it is as clear as it can. Page 281.

- some species are more resistant to force powers.

- some species are immune

- sense allows only read emotional state and surface thoughts resulting imperfect snapshot of anothers mind and cannot call information on demand.

GM should allow access to valuable information.... However sense should not allow automatic win situations but provide information how to proceed. Should help them with their work not do their work for them.

Influence has checks with control upgrade otherwise just strain is possible.

Move Control 2 allows pulling objects from secure mountings, or opponets grasp with dicipline. So if force user can rip vehicle mounted blaster repeater loose with move it should also be enough to rip anything out of even wookies hands.

Move and damage... Damage is resolved following all the rules for ranged attacks p. 284. So I would say cover and other defensive benefits should apply as opposing pool for the required dicipline throw.

 

I guess I just come from a different gaming mentality where I like things balanced between characters (and even characters and NPCs.)  I also don't like something happening to a character with no way for them to resist.  If every non-Force related check can be resisted in some way why can't a character resist the Force.

 

If I'm playing a Wookie Marauder with a Vibrosword who wants to disarm someone I need to make a Melee check that is most likely opposed in some way if the opponent is still alive an kicking.

 

I would get annoyed to find that the Force Sensative Exile with Move can do it without an opposed check (all he has to do is get a Force point on his Force die.)  He doesn't need to make a Discipline check unless he is using the object as an attack.  I would get even more annoyed if the Force Sensative was an NPC Nemisis who disarmed me and there was nothing I could do about it.

 

Here is a silly example that is possible with RAW.  Two Jedi with Move are fighting a lightsaber duel.  First guy goes and says well screw it I use Move and rip my opponents lightsaber away from him.  Second guy says I do the same.  Next round they spend using Move to get their lightsabers back.  Is this stupid? ABSOLUTELY.  However disarming an opponent is a major advantage in a combat scenario so why wouldn't you do it. 

 

In fact its sorta a combat killer against small numbers of enemies such as a Nemesis and 3 Minions.  The rest of the group keeps wacking at the minions and the Force Sensative keeps pulling the weapons from the Nemesis's hands and unless he has an arsenal to draw on he's out of the combat barring the Brawl skill or a weapon built into armor.

 

Silly things like the above are easily remedied by making the checks opposed plus when you roll the ability, difficulty and other dice you get symbols that help tell a story.   

 

 

 

As for sense being clear... for me its not clear... its GM Fiat.

 

- some species are more resistant to force powers.

 

Okay... since there is currently next to no mechanics to resist Force Powers (Influence an Emmotional State the exception) why does this matter?  Also is there any mention of this in the Racial (outside of droids) or Adversary sections?  Do I go to Wookipedia to see if a race is force resistant.  Do I as a GM just decide this race I've put together for this adventure is force resistant?  To what extent does Force resistant interact with the rules?

- some species are immune

 

How many species are noted as Immune.  Not even the Hutt in the Adversary chapter is immune (nor should it.. it should have high Willpower and Discipline which it does.)  Droids (not living) I guess are immune to Sense and Influence.  For the most part this is GM Fiat at this point.

- sense allows only read emotional state and surface thoughts resulting imperfect snapshot of anothers mind and cannot call information on demand.

 

GM Fiat.  There is nothing I as a character can do via the RAW to influence what information I get from reading surface thoughts.  Obviously you can call for Charm or Coercion rolls to get them to think about specific things.  And maybe that is the way it should work with threat making them aware of your attempt.

 

Seperating the Force into a sub-system seems odd to me.  They created this beautiful narative dice mechanic but then mostly ignored it for the Force?

 

 

Wraith428

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Well, first, given that we don't have a Lightsaber skill or Jedi careers, we don't know what a Jedi/Sith can do to resist the Force, and really, no one but Force-focused people are going to have a chance to resist it. EotE isn't about the people in tune with how to use/combat the Force, so it doesn't really have a place.

 

In Force of Destiny, I'm sure you'll be seeing Force abilities that protect against the Force. But as it is, no character in EotE knows enough about the Force to protect themselves from it.

 

Obviously there are some NPCs right now that would, but for now that's just GM Fiat until we get the core books that will address it in full.

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Well, first, given that we don't have a Lightsaber skill or Jedi careers, we don't know what a Jedi/Sith can do to resist the Force, and really, no one but Force-focused people are going to have a chance to resist it. EotE isn't about the people in tune with how to use/combat the Force, so it doesn't really have a place.

 

In Force of Destiny, I'm sure you'll be seeing Force abilities that protect against the Force. But as it is, no character in EotE knows enough about the Force to protect themselves from it.

 

Obviously there are some NPCs right now that would, but for now that's just GM Fiat until we get the core books that will address it in full.

 

Then replace Jedi in the sentence above with Force Sensative Exile and Lightsaber's with Vibroswords.  The point stands.

 

Also why can't I resist having my blaster being ripped out of my hand with my Athletics and Brawn?  Why do I need a Force Rating to resist that?

 

What I'm concened with is that if this is the foundation of the Force system has FFG thought of these concerns. 

 

Does does read surface thoughts get resisted? 

  • One sollution is No:  It can't be resisted by non-force users (maybe in F&D Force Users will be able to resist with the Force).  Resistance comes into play by whether the target notes what the force user is doing and resists any Influence checks to make him think of specific thoughts.  In this case how does the target take note.  Is this a Vigilence check or does the force user need a Discipline vs. Vigilence check to get in without alerting the target?
  • Another Solution is Yes:  The mind naturally resists intrusion.  The Force user need to make a Discipline vs. Discipline or maybe Discipline vs. Vigilence to access the target's surface thoughts.
  • There are Certainly Other Options as well.

I'm actually leaning towards something in the vein of Solution 1 for my personal preference now that I've heard so good commnets in this and other threads. 

 

Othe concerns.

 

Can you resist being disarmed by the Move power without a Force Rating?

Can you trying to avoid (aka up the difficulty) Move power attacks via cover, the dodge or side step talent, and defese from armor?

Can you do anything to avoid the strain damage inflicted by Influence if you are aware the Force User is doing something to you (other than run away and try to get out of range?)

 

Now maybe what we see in EotE isn't the final basis of the Force system for Star Wars.  If FFG came out and said they are majorly overhauling or even majorly detailing the Force system for F&D (such that these questions are answered) then I could live with this as a stop gap for the future.  But if not I figure its worth discussing.  Also... I know if I were a player in EotE, espcially one with a a non-force sensative character, I'd have these questions.  Instead I'm a GM so I'm trying to understand what the intent here is so that I can answer the inevitable questions my players will have and create a balanced sense of play for my group as I want them to like this game.

 

Thanks,

 

Wraith428 

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Here's how I'm probably going to deal with Force Powers and defense.

Sensing life signs?  No restrictions.

Sensing emotions?  Having trained ranks of Cool allows you to make an opposing check against their Discipline.

Sensing thoughts?  Having trained ranks of Discipline allows you to make an opposing check against their Discipline.

 

Influence to inflict strain?  No defense.  Force Stun is pretty effective against most targets, and that's basically what this is.

 

Mind Trick?  Listed defense.

 

Assisted social check?  Already get defense against it through the opposing check.

 

Throwing things at people?  Discipline check equal to sillouette of item, plus a Ranged (light) or Ranged (heavy) check [whatever you think fits better given the size of the object.  You could even make a special combat skill specifically for this check, like Mental Throw (Willpower) since you need more mental focus and attention over agility to hit someone with this.]  

 

Trying to steal someone's item with the force?  Ranks in Athletics allows a check opposed to their Discipline.  They would also need to do a Discipline check to move items held that are silhouette 1 or higher, like if the "item" you were trying to steal from someone was actually your buddy out of a Bull Rancor's claw.

 

 

If my players give me a good reason as to why they should be allowed an additional defense, or if they use a Destiny point to help persuade me to do so, chances are I will.  Even my unathletic Kubaz might get a chance to hold on to his holdout blaster.
 

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Here's how I'm probably going to deal with Force Powers and defense.

Sensing life signs?  No restrictions.

Sensing emotions?  Having trained ranks of Cool allows you to make an opposing check against their Discipline.

Sensing thoughts?  Having trained ranks of Discipline allows you to make an opposing check against their Discipline.

 

Influence to inflict strain?  No defense.  Force Stun is pretty effective against most targets, and that's basically what this is.

 

Mind Trick?  Listed defense.

 

Assisted social check?  Already get defense against it through the opposing check.

 

Throwing things at people?  Discipline check equal to sillouette of item, plus a Ranged (light) or Ranged (heavy) check [whatever you think fits better given the size of the object.  You could even make a special combat skill specifically for this check, like Mental Throw (Willpower) since you need more mental focus and attention over agility to hit someone with this.]  

 

Trying to steal someone's item with the force?  Ranks in Athletics allows a check opposed to their Discipline.  They would also need to do a Discipline check to move items held that are silhouette 1 or higher, like if the "item" you were trying to steal from someone was actually your buddy out of a Bull Rancor's claw.

 

 

If my players give me a good reason as to why they should be allowed an additional defense, or if they use a Destiny point to help persuade me to do so, chances are I will.  Even my unathletic Kubaz might get a chance to hold on to his holdout blaster.

 

I don't think all that extra stuff is really needed.

 

Sensing emotions and thoughts is already fairly limited, as the sidebar on page 281; you're not mind-reading, but just getting a quick snap-shot of what the target is feeling or thinking at that moment in time.

 

Using Move to attack is already restrictive enough, and anything the target has that applies to defending against ranged attacks (such as cover) is already going to make it harder for the Force-user to hit them.  Plus, they've got to generate 2 Force Points if they want to activate either a Strength or a Range Upgrade when attacking, so it's either a big object at Short Range, or plink damage at a longer range.  Even with a Force Rating of 2, most Force-users are only going to be able to reliably get a basic power and an upgrade off.

 

As for using Move for a long-distance pick-pocket, I'd say that trying to use it on anything bigger than a foot in cubic volume is doomed to failure when it comes to being stealthy, but that's the extent of it, since by that point the PC has spent a decent amount of XP to gain that ability (at least 40 XP to be able to pluck someone from a Rancor's grip, since you'd also need the Strength upgrade, which means needing to roll 2 Force Points to pull it off).  It'd be akin to penalizing a player that's picked up Natural Pilot or Natural Programmer by having them make an extra roll in order to use the re-roll ability those talents grant.

 

Trust me, I know that Force-users can be powerful, but some of this stuff just seems unnecessarily punitive, to the point that you might as well just tell the players "Sorry, but I don't see Force-sensitives fitting into my campaign at this time."  And NPC Force-users should be rarer than hen's teeth wrapped up in four-leaf clovers, so in those instances when the PCs actually do encounter an enemy Force-user, it should be a definite "oh crap!" type of moment.

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In regard to the item being ripped from the oppnent's hand, in this case, doesn't the force user have to make a roll for force points when they do this? Yes, the dice will always come up with pips, but most of them that will come up are dark side points. Yes, it may not be able to be resistable, but its not without a price. Additionally, if someone only has one force point, they won't be able to use their sense powers in a given turn. They might pull a weapon out of an oppnent's hand, but they won't be able to use the force in their turn to dodge incoming fire from your oppnent's irate allies...

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Spending a Destiny point and getting some strain to disarm someone and flat out win a fight is not a price on par with the effect. I'm concerned that after roughly ten sessions a Force Sensitive character appears to get significantly more powerful than any other specialisation. The force powers are too versatile and too easy to use in comparison to nearly everything else.

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A good rule of thumb is to play the rules of a game to see how it actually works in play. Adding fixes before playing often leads to problems.

 

Since this beta has been out for a while, are there any players who have experience with this issue?

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Found this online... http://gsa.thegamernation.org/2012/09/27/star-wars-edge-of-the-empire-the-game-has-changed/

 

It mentions Discipline Rolls for Force use.  Has this not been implemented in the core game?

 

Here is the key passage

"... The other big change was that several effects, most notably the offensive use of Move and the mind trick upgrade of Influence, are now opposed Discipline rolls where previously they just occurred automatically with the target having no means of resistance."

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Found this online... http://gsa.thegamernation.org/2012/09/27/star-wars-edge-of-the-empire-the-game-has-changed/

 

It mentions Discipline Rolls for Force use.  Has this not been implemented in the core game?

 

Here is the key passage

"... The other big change was that several effects, most notably the offensive use of Move and the mind trick upgrade of Influence, are now opposed Discipline rolls where previously they just occurred automatically with the target having no means of resistance."

 

This is in the Core Rulebook. 

Page 284, the Control upgrade for Move: "The Force user can hurl objects to damage targets, by making a Discipline check combined with a Move power check, dealing damage equal to 10 times silhouette."

And in page 282, the Control upgrade for Influence: "The Force user may make an opposed Discipline vs. Discipline check combined with an Influence Power check. If the user spends [Force Point] and succeeds on the check, he can force the target to adopt an emotional state or believe something untrue, lasting for 1 round or 5 minutes."

Edited by DylanRPG

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Spending a Destiny point and getting some strain to disarm someone and flat out win a fight is not a price on par with the effect. I'm concerned that after roughly ten sessions a Force Sensitive character appears to get significantly more powerful than any other specialisation. The force powers are too versatile and too easy to use in comparison to nearly everything else.

 

This is presuming that a FSE character is only spending points on their force powers, and no other skills. If they do this then they're likely leaving themselves well behind when it comes to other matters. Yes, pulling a blaster out of someone's hands is indeed cool, but truth be told the one wielding the blaster likely has a backup, or would jump forward and pummel the livng crap out of the wimpy force-user who just swiped his gun. Why? Because the force user hasn't developed any other skill, talent or ability other than a nifty parlour trick... and since he's used his force dice point on the gun yank, he's not going to have it to aid with his own defense.

 

I think we need to be careful in saying "this is broken" when it's not been tried within the full context of the game. Force powers may be easy to use, but they are expensive relative to what non-force sensitives take when spending their own Xp. I can't see spending 100-odd xp to the exclusion of everything else in order to get a power that really only has a 41% chance of working in a combat round (force dice have white pips on only 5 of the 12 sides) without any nasty side effects.

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As a person who was given permission to create a Force Sensitive player in our group, I've been worried about trying to use the force just because I have been worried if I'll be able to use the abilities a lot. I mean, the best I can ever do is have 2 Force Dice to roll and hope I get enough light side points; which is already a challenge since there are more dark sides than light sides on the dice.

 

Maybe later on in the game once you get down to Force Rating 2 and get that second die, sure it might happen more often, but if your GM isn't handing XP out like Candy (After our first session we barely received 15 and that was because we rolled a few Triumphs during the big battle at the end and a few during some key story moments)

 

In addition, so what if you pull the blaster out of one guys hand, even two guys? As a GM, if you know this is something your force user is doing, have more than 1-2 guys? That way he can do it, but there are others that still oppose a threat. Then if he ever manages to get enough to impact the maximum amount of npcs (Which would be like, what 4?) Then he pulled off an amazing feat, which is what this game is about. The story. 

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I know my little house rules that I'm probably going to test out seem complicated, but they are actually not too hard to believe.  And I have an player with a severe potential to try to metagame playing a force user in my game.  If I don't do something about him being able to free disarm/steal people's items, he's just going to wind up doing that to all the strongest guys I pit them against and there won't be anything I can do about it besides make him fight dudes with weapons built into their arms and that's lame.  Just saying "I Darth Vader to Han the Sith's lightsaber from him and oh look I have a lightsaber now" is lame and way too easy IMO.  Now, overcoming his physical strength while doing so is way more impressive, especially if the sith himself is pretty tough.  I dunno, it just seems more thematic and less likely to get broken against doods.

I love the Force, but it has a severe potential to be OP as balls, and it also has a severe potential to limelight the Force Sensitive and make others feel useless, especially if  there's a strong non-force-sensitive wookiee using a Ryyk blade that the scrawny force user can just take from him whenever he effectively wants with no say from the wookiee himself.  It just seems wrong that the target has no say in it, and no way to defend against it.

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I agree, brawn, agility, all these things should add to the check or add setback dice.

 

 

That also goes with the rip this off supports, so now force sensitive players have easy access to all vault/safe doors and such....

Edited by ryolacap

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       Yea if you look at it from a straight up success ability force powers are wicked fun. I mean throw a speeder and deal 20 damage. Cool right? Not really, look at what a player has to roll to even have a chance of doing that. One pip to activate the power, two strength upgrades for two more pips to get there. That means that you have to have 2 force rating which takes alot of experience to get to begin with and be really freaking lucky. You`ll need (lemme do some math) 1/12 has two white pips, 5/12 have one white pip. You have something like a 3.5% chance of getting that (Not sure on the math, been a long morning but it's really freakin low). Then you get to make a ranged attack roll. Oh and if you fail you waste your action.

       As far as disarming goes I thought you would have to use one white pip to activate the power then another to activate the disarm control. If not then I would require the player to go against the silhouette of the object being disarmed, people are a 1 so thats going to add a pip. Again, low chances when that bad guy could just pull out another weapon and blast you, and with your build as a force exile you`re not going to have a great defense or soak. I don`t recall where it says it flys to the characters hand either, I presumed it just fell away from the target and they would have to retrieve it (one or two maneuvers). Ripping a gun from a vehicle is exceedingly difficult. First activating the power for one or two pips, plus atleast two pips to affect an object that silhouette. Again you`re running long odds at success. Did I mention you waste your action if you fail?

          Don`t even get me started on the mind reading. Sure you can read surface thoughts and it can be very useful in certain situations, but how many enemies have surface thoughts more powerful than 'I`m going to loot your corpse', 'I bet you`re tasty' or 'You got a pretty mouth'. Plus the range is really short unless you want to spend pips to increase it. If you cannot tell the drooling thugs surface thoughts from the smell of his breath and look in his eyes you`re not going to be long for this world. If it's used against players GM's should be either very blatent that they are fighting a force user and should expect it, or it should be used sparringly so that players don`t feel helpless. That guy in the black cloak with a glowing stick of plasma and a smile on his face, yea you got bigger problems than the fact he's spending pips to hear you **** yourself in your mind. It a roleplaying power for sure.

          Did anyone realise that the default range on these is short some even less and you have to spend pips to go any higher distance? So you want that blaster rifle nailing you from long range? Well you better either start running (atleast two rounds) or pray to the lucas gods that you roll alot of pips and have spent the xp to have range increases.

        

           I actually enjoyed their balance with force users. Even the baddies have low chances of causing something truely devestating but they have better chances at prolonging combat with defensive and minor abilities. I as a player have looked at it as a secondary specialization, like they designed it to be, rather than a core class. Mix it with another specialization and you can do well, have it as your only build and it's rather weak.

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