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TempestSatori

Ogryns and their Starting Gear.

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So maybe I missed something, and currently in the game I run I'll be using common sense as a guide, but I like to be sure about things. The things in specific I'm talking about being Ogryns, armour, and Ripper Guns in melee.


 


 


 


Nowhere that I have seen in the core book (the only one I actually have) discuses Ogryn and armour, as in do they get the standard stuff their regiment gets, does it fit them, or how much more it would weigh if the first two things were true. Now to me it seems like a silly assumption that anyone in the guard would be sent into battle unarmoured, I mean sure they're bid 'ol abhumans and nobody (who hasn't been saved by one constantly) likes them, but they are still a resource, and a powerful and fairly rare one at that. So I assume that the Ogryn get a up-sized version of the standard stuff for their unit, and because of their height and bulk I'll just also assume that double the standard weight is appropriate. Also just for kicks I'd drop the availability of any armour sought through Logistics by one degree as well, because less of it is made and it's made out of more stuff than other armour so it's more expensive.


 


 


 


Next the Ripper Gun, such a lovely piece of brutality given loving form to bring joy to all the little heretics and witches. It says in its description something along the lines of "it counts as if it were a Warhammer in melee combat" which is all well and good until one stops to think that Ogyrn don't get Low Tech weapon training for free (unless their entire Regiment does). So for simplicity's sake I just count the melee aspect of the Ripper Gun to do damage and have penetration and special qualities like a Warhammer but it's actual class to be something along the lines of Melee, Heavy.


 


 


 


Alright so any help, useful info, and/or pointing out how I missed several posts in the same vein would be appreciated.

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I think it's best if the ogryn takes Weapon Training (Low Tech) as it IS necessary to use most of the melee weapons that the ogryn is going to need (like improvised clubs). Sadly, they don't appear to get it as a starting talent. That's stupid, but RAW. Play it that way or houserule it, whichever your table likes.

And yes, you get an appropritately sized version of the regimental standard armour.

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Okai i got an Ogryn charakter, i have made it as simple as possible double the wight, he can carry alot. Brosten as i call him also has Molly a big ass shield, a former converted Back door of a chimera. What i recomend if you are playing an ogryn is to convert and use the REINFORCED rule on everything he must wear THAT  should increase the wight of the given item with 20%. Just use your imagination and build stuff for your ogryn like orcs do.

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Ripper gun counts as a 1d10+9 warhammer in melee

 

Please have a look in the rulebook. A Warhammer is 1d10+2 Pen 1, with Primitive 8. Stats are located on page 185, bottom part.

 

Your Ogryn might reach that high if he maxed out his strenght attribute (5 from strenght, 2 from Unnatural), but please remember that Primitive means that any role of 8,9, and 10 is counted as 8.

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As this is a 40k game, I usually refer to 40k canon when I decide these things.  For instance, look at the Ogryn miniatures.  None of them wear armor.  Sometimes the Bone-'Eads will wear a ridiculous Viking horned helmet, but thats from games like Dawn of War.

 

Originally only the Sergeant got a Ripper-gun (because he was a BONE-Head and the only one smart enough to use them).  The rest of the Ogryn got clubs.  Not nice clubs, but like 2x4's with nails in them or tree branches.  A lot of this was based upon the assertion that Ogryns had the intellect and mentality of a (violent) 6-10 year old.  AND that the game designers obviously didn't have any 6-10 year old children.  They're supposed to be dumb, yes, but where does everyone assume all Ogryn have Down Syndrome?

 

Eventually they evolved to all the squad having Ripper Guns, the Viking helmets were gone as well as their 1% chance of having Psychic powers.  But still no armor.

 

Ok, but in the fluff, some Ogryn do have armor.  Well, if they're mercs or work for an Inquisitor.  In those cases, you may even find them using plasma cannons.  Point is: anything is possible.  Especially if the Regiment is under the command of a Rogue Trader.

 

If you've ever raised a child past the age of 6-10, you can immediately see that Ogryns have (or at least should have) a lot more potential than they're given credit for.

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Ogryns used to wear feudal level armour/weaponry in old 40k fluff and cannon, chainmail, leathers bits of plate etc, weaponry was the same, swords, axes, pikes, maces the full works anything an everything

 

They are an entire species off shoot of humanity, whole worlds full of them, of course they have gear that is sized for them.

 

BONEhead sergeants were neurologically enhanced to understand squad level tactics, and use more sophisticated gear and weaponry. 

 

Squats went the opposite way, they were smaller but smarter and more high tech orientated than there larger Ogryn counterparts. 

 

As for OW Ogryns get treated like every other specialist type, they get starting gear from class, and from regiment creation, I would say the Ogryn proof rule only applies to weaponry and gear, not armour, all they have to do is wear it.

And for the Rippergun query, it says it functions like a Warhammer, not it is a warhammer, so it is a gun that is so large, in the ogryns hands when it swings it about in melee, use warhammer for its baseline damage, damage type and  pen ect.

 

And yes any Ogryn should know how to use low tech weapons, without needing to purchase it.

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I disagree that any ogryn should know how to use low tech weapons.  Being able to swing a sword/warhammer is not the same as being able to actually hit somenone (thing) that is fighting back and moving!

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Ogryns are depicted as being violent, belligerent and hyper aggressive,  there society is based around fighting to keep position in that society, they use weapons like axe's, swords and maces to settle disagreements between themselves.

 

They are kinda like Orcs in that regard, so why wouldn't they be knowing how to use primitive weaponry? they are primitive, and they are violent on a scale humans never reach. 

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Well partly because the rules do not give it to them.  Given that they come from a variety of worlds it is by no means certain that this is the case on every world.

 

They are also described as incredibly stupid, who's to say that every Ogryn is *capable* of learning, by fighting in his homeworld society, how to use a club effectively and some don't just swing wildy in a hyper aggressive manner?  An ogryn's view of 'knowing how to use a weapon' might be "you hit him with it and he gets hurt".  This is very different from training.

Edited by BrotherKane

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Alright guys so I know I'm a little late to the party but I think I can clear up the confussion about the warhammer ripper gun. If you look through the armory chapter in the core rule book all of the GENERAL descriptions about the weapons ( the ones that read "Las Weapons" "Flame Weapons" as opposed to "Las Carbine" or "Heavy Flamer" almost always end with the sentence " must have the Weapon Training ( Las ) talent" even in the melee section it says the same for Chain and Power weapons. This sentence is absent however in the low tech section for MELEE ONLY. My group decided that this men't the talent for Weapon Training ( Low Tech ) only counts for low tech ranged weapons. Meaning bows and flintlocks and slings require training but swords and spears don't. Now this makes some sense because if I go out and pick up a bow and arrow, or a sling, I would not be able to fire either weapons effectively. I have friends however who have 5 plus years in archery that can fire a bow pretty efficiently, they would count as having weapon training ( low tech ) if real life was like only war. Now if me and my archery buddy go out and pick up some swords we would both have a basic understanding that the sharp end is swung at your enemies. Therefore we can both USE swords whereas archery friend can use swords and bows. Now that real life analogy was kinda cool but you might be like "but Gnbiscuits! Gnbiscuits! Neither of you have been in the army or ever had to use a sword to kill anyone! They fight back and can easily kill you!" Well my friend you are right and that difference is settled by different WS values. For example if we agree with what I said so far Both a guardsman and a khorne berserker can both wield a sword without the necessary training. A khorne B has a much higher WS and probably also has parry whereas the gaurdsman does not. So poor gaurdsman goes up with WS 30 and KB kills him in two rounds with his WS of 50 plus. This represents the khorne berserker as being more "trained" with the weapon, or at least knowing what to do with it.. So in the end an Ogryn can use a Warhammer because there is no training necessary to wield it. TLDR: Ogryns can use Warhammers because Weapon training ( low tech ) talent only applies to ranged low tech weapons and not melee ranged weapons.

Edited by Gnbiscuits

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Ogryns are depicted as being violent, belligerent and hyper aggressive,  there society is based around fighting to keep position in that society, they use weapons like axe's, swords and maces to settle disagreements between themselves.

 

They are kinda like Orcs in that regard, so why wouldn't they be knowing how to use primitive weaponry? they are primitive, and they are violent on a scale humans never reach. 

 

Ogryn is a generic term for abhumans of the type that develop on high-gravity worlds. They have no one society, and no particular reason why they should all be violent..

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Ogryn is a generic term for abhumans of the type that develop on high-gravity worlds. They have no one society, and no particular reason why they should all be violent..

 

That is, if we discard GW Codex fluff.

 

Now to me it seems like a silly assumption that anyone in the guard would be sent into battle unarmoured

 

What a deliciously idealistic, modern thought. ;)

 

ranger.gif

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Personally I would give the Ogryn the equivalent of the armour the guardsmen/women in the regiment wear.

 

Not claiming that they make carapace armour in Ogryn size, but that they have something similar. It might just be thick armour plates or chainmail or something but it would make sense to give them as much armour protection as the regiments other troopers get. After all, if they have deemed that the minestompers are important enough to get flak armour then why not give something to all troops in the regiment.

 

(Of course you might claim that the Ogryns are expendable, but then again, so are all IG troops.)

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Good point. In this game, even Catachans get flak armour, so unless one were to enforce the Guard's appearance as it exists in the TT rather than the RPG's own core rulebook, there's no good reason not to give it to Ogryns as well. As Balenorn has said, in essence it's the same as with any other Specialist class, no?

 

If the book specifically mentioned they did not get any, unlike the other Specialists, then I would have simply assumed that (aside from sticking to their original look) this is a balancing thing intended to address their Unnatural Toughness and bring the character's resilience close to the other PCs.

Which GMs are still free to do if they think Ogryns are too tough, ofc!

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Ogryn is a generic term for abhumans of the type that develop on high-gravity worlds. They have no one society, and no particular reason why they should all be violent..

 

That is, if we discard GW Codex fluff.

 

 

There is nothing in the 5E codex that says that Ogryns come from violent societies or are all violent.

 

It says that they respond to threats with violence.

 

You know, like elephants and large herbivores in general. Not violent, but capable of it if threatened (more specifically if the young are threatened, since not much is actually going to threaten a grown elephant).

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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IIRC, ogryns get a 5+ armour save in the TT, right?

Seems to me like someone makes ogryn sized flak armour ;)

 

Hmm, I would have assumed that this refers to the individual pieces of plating they have strapped onto their bodies, in true movie barbarian fashion - but this is an interpretation gained solely from looking at the miniatures and artwork. I can see how it might be interpreted differently by looking at the stats.

 

Besides, even with this RPG offering several different body zones, it still is not detailed enough to "accurately" convert a metal shoulder pauldron into game-mechanical protection. I could see how a piece that adds, say, 6 AP to the left breast and shoulder might be portrayed as 3 AP for the entire body zone by means of abstraction.

 

There's probably ways to come up with some elaborate special rules such as "protects only against attacks from the front and/or the left side", but that may just be an unnecessary level of complexity?

 

There is nothing in the 5E codex that says that Ogryns come from violent societies or are all violent.

 

It says that they respond to threats with violence.

 

You know, like elephants and large herbivores in general. Not violent, but capable of it if threatened (more specifically if the young are threatened, since not much is actually going to threaten a grown elephant).

 

The exact wording would be "extreme violence, whether it is required or not" - not quite what I would use when talking about elephants. The book you are referring to goes on to claim that "the most natural thing for an Ogryn to do with any heavy object is to smash it over his enemy's head" and that Ogryns are "colossal thugs".

 

Though, if you think this is not enough, I would agree that GW's website uses a less ambiguous wording:

 

"Ogryns are massive brutes whose immense strength is legendary throughout the Imperium. Deployed as close assault troops, where their bulk and tendency towards extreme violence gives them a considerable advantage, Ogryns can survive a score of wounds that would fell a normal man."

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Extreme violence when threatened, whether it is required or not, is pretty much exactly how I would describe an elephant, yes. Or a bull, for that matter.

 

There is nothing in the text that says that all Ogryns come from extremely violent societies. Period. Simply that they tend to react with extreme violence. Like bulls. With their, um. ultraviolent societies in which every day is a Hobbesian struggle for bovine survival.

 

In short it is blatantly absurd to assert that every high-gravity worlder, of which there are presumably thousands of planets full, would all come from the same society. Some would be chillin' on the savanna eating grass. Some would be hunting Mega Mammoths in the arctic.

 

Don't even get me started on Ratlings.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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I'd say that a "tendency towards extreme violence" requires either a violent culture or a genetic predisposition towards violence - which in turn will create a violent culture. You've also ignored the description as "thugs".

 

But perhaps you can manage to locate a counter-example you are convinced must exist?

 

(and I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding the elephants. with bulls, I'd say you make a much better argument)

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I am completely aware that elephants are highly social beings, and it is also totally irrelevant. (So are people by the way.)

 

The whole point is that they are extremely violent to THREATS. THREATS. Not to those inside their society. THREATS, such as those who attack their young. Their society, defined as the relations between herd members, _is not violent_. They are not violent _internally_. They are extremely violent _to perceived threats_.

 

The behavior of a group, internally, to its members, _has no relation whatsoever_ to its behavior to those outside the group. That Orgyns react with extreme violence to perceived threats (by the way, what other kind of violence is there for something of that size?) has no relation at all to whether or not the society itself is violent.

 

There is no relation, at all, between level of violence inside a society and the level of violence it applies to outsiders. There is no causal connection between "x tends to react violently to enemies" and "x has a violent society internally." Zero.

 

This should be plainly goddamn obvious by looking at, like, our own societies. Was Germany in the 1930s a hyperviolent society . No it was not.

 

If they were all hyperviolent BTW, IT WOULD MAKE NO GODDAMN SENSE, because they all come from different societies. Ai also makes NO GODDAMN SENSE, because they are described as "extremely loyal," not a trait that you get in Hobb esian war of all against all.

Edited by bogi_khaosa

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Actually the description that is given "fiercely loyal to those inside the group, extremely violent to those perceived as threats to the group" pretty much describes large herd animals.

 

Anyway this has been an extraodrinarily silly discussion. :)

 

I will close by saying that, Lynata, you are obviously very intelligent -- the fact that you are writing in a foreign language virtually flawlessly, with only occasional hiccups that I notice only because I also know German testifies to this -- but you seem to have certain heavy emotional involvements that prevent you from seeing things logically on occasion.

 

And that's all I have to say. :)

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I could say the same thing to you. Just that I would not use overt repetition or capital letters in what I can only assume is a fervent belief that I must be missing something that seems crystal-clear to you, but which ultimately just comes off as somewhat insulting to my reading comprehension.

 

And you are still ignoring the description as "thugs" and the "tendency towards extreme violence" - the latter sentence notably not mentioning any threat, but describing a general attitude. Like their bulk, mentioned in the very same sentence as a second characteristic of Ogryns as a group, existing at any and all times.

 

But seeing as we cannot convince one another, I agree that it would be best to just stop here and return the thread to other interested posters.

 

 

On a sidenote: I do not believe anyone here is not emotionally involved. We are all fans here, spending a considerable amount of spare time to debate various details of the game(s) and its background. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that anyone does not have a bias, especially with a background that is this open to interpretation and personal preferences. ;)

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Nowhere that I have seen in the core book (the only one I actually have) discuses Ogryn and armour

Checked Ogryn stats in OW CRB p.372 and there they at least have been given Flak Vest as an armour.

 

Might be they have Ogryn sized armour, might be they have used it as representing Ogryn scavenging bits and pieces together to get some kind of protection.

 

PS.

Not like Stigmartus Ogryn Brute, in DW: The Achilus Assault p.73,  who has Flak board pieces riveted to its skin.

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