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DocPanic

Poor Overlord (heroes OP?)

210 posts in this topic

I think DocPanic has pretty nice idea about OL gearing up monsters and getting some additional skills (besides OL cards).

 

I see it like, for example, an additional deck of cards with some upgrades for mosters and/or condition cards (to make them more powerful). OL would pick one of these cards in the very beginning of the campaign and two more after the interlude (or according to the amount of quests he won in the act 1, win 2 quests = get 2 cards).

 

Such deck does not need to be big, I think 12 - 15 cards would be enough, just for the sake of variety (OL would not be able to get all of them anyway so he will have to think which cards would be more suitable to his play style or OL cards he has).

 

I really hope FF will draw its attention to this thread and consider the idea.
 

Edited by poet1001

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I had a similar experience when we played through the first couple campaigns we did. As OL I got steam rolled, even with the ACT 2 monsters. I think the problem was the heroes (my friends are veteran RPG and strategy gamers) spent a lot of planning time in their hero and class selection before we began that it became increasingly difficult to deal with the synergy they created (I have the conversion pack, we played Descent v1). They just love stunning and cc, from the get go they were looking for every way to stun stun stun. Hero abilities with cc, class with the most cc, weapons with stun as a surge. Every encounter they would in effect turn my turn into one where I could not attack and position, I had to choose one, since I had to discard the stun condition. Positioning without attacking is pointless since my monsters are just toothless space occupiers. Attacking was impossible, I spent the encounter relying on range monsters to do the damage because they do not need their move action to get into mele range, but the heroes always knew this and put the tank to block LOS. It was super frustrating. 

 

The next campaign we started I decided to be a **** and I told them they had to random everything! They had to randomly select their heroes and the classes. This was met with lots of complaints from most of the heroes (the one guy who likes randomness in games embraced the idea). It finally was agreed upon when I said someone else be OL for the next campaign, but after seeing how hard of a time I had the previous campaign they did not want to trade places. 

 

So we randomly selected a hero from each archetype, and then for each of those we flipped coins to see which class they will have to be. 

 

We ended up not finishing that campaign, since I sadly relocated to a different part of the country. We did finish the first act, and I think it helped with the balancing of our campaign. I won half the first act quests, even got one of the relics. It did not gimp the heroes at all, they still found synergy with their heroes abilities. The heroes ended up with strategies out of their comfort zones way more since they could not depend on WHIRLWIND, with STUN! ATTACK WITH BURST... and STUN!

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I think the problem is that heroes snowball in power while the Overlord does not.  My opinion as to the reason why is If the Overlord wins quests he/she is typically rewarded with stuff that is situationally useful; either gear for Leutenants that are not always present, cards that are randomized in the deck, etc.  When heroes get more XP for skills or better weapons they can use those every single turn.  So if the Overlord does poorly early on, it can result in heroes throwing out a huge amount of DPS and then for the rest of the game they are just going to be getting better and better.  There is obviously a cap to this as there is only so many weapons and stuff they can aquire but if they do it early enough there is no way for the Overlord to get his/her upgrades outside of cards and those will be at a slower pace.  On multiple occations with different players being the Overlord our group has noticed that at four heroes it's very hard to keep up with hero damage, especially once they've gotten specific skills.

 

I think that there needs to be some way to upgrade monsters outside of just the standard act 2 buffs they get.  Give Overlord the ability to spend XP on something that will be a static buff.  Something along the lines of level 3 Overlord cards that once played gives all monsters of a specific type (or more than one) +2 damage for the rest of the encounter and then have them spaced out into the different Overlord archtype card sets so they he/she has to work to get more than one.

 

I also think certain hero/class type combonations are broken.  When multiples of those are taken by the players this gets out of hand incredibly quickly.  I was able to trivialize a good deal of encounters by taking the character that could gain extra move and flip search tokens if she moved by them in combination with the smoke grenade item and the tumble ability.  There was almost nothing the Overlord could do short of hyperfocusing on me which left the other three heroes untouched.  Most of the movement inparing cards were useless due to my character's high perception abilitly and lucky charm reroll.  Randomizing heroes and classes I think is almost a requirement to avoid this.

Edited by Radish
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Wow i'm glad I play to have fun cause each campaign I'd do the same **** and choose the same characters over and over again.  I play to have fun (Hero or OL) and choosing the "easy" path is not my style.

 

I'm glad some like this type of "powergaming" and i'm sure they have fun playing this way so I respect that.

 

I just like to try different avenues and mix/match eveytime I can do that...like playing with 4 Mages and laugh :P

This isn't a thread about "are you playing to have fun?"thread. "Are you telling the Heroes a good bed time story?" Thread. This thread is intended to find flaws with the game and we did( look above). If you have say 75% people buying a rpg game for the first time and complaining game favors OL then this game well head in wrong direction. The other 25% may be exsperianced players who offer reasonable salutions to repair the game. (Just an example)

I work with math for a living everyday and I can tell you without whipping out a calculator the OL needs help! Atleast help after act 2.

Every game video,table top, board game has design flaws. The conversion kit can add even more unbalance to the OL. When hero players go to find a combination to there liking and OL can't really do the same that's a flaw. Because hero players will know where there heroes power will be vs OL after a few quests. I can't simply go to my poor goblin and say " here goblin you need this new shinny bow and this speedy boots". Ahh all better!

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Yeah Descent isn't an RPG even if it is similar in a lot of ways.  It's a competitive board game where the idea is to win and thus should be as balanced as possible.  The World of Darkness RPG system for instance is full of issues but the game master can tinker with stuff since the goal of that game is to have an interactive experiance moderated by someone that can do anything regarding the rules and setting.  In this game the Overlord is a player bound by restrictions as are the heroes; he/she isn't moderating the game but playing an opposing side.  Both sides should be trying as hard as they can to win without cheating so it benefits the game as a whole to make sure everything is equal as possible so that one side isn't frustrated and the other isn't bored.

Edited by Radish
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I am hearing about allot of combo bashing and OL having a hard time getting around it. My heroes came up with cripple and prayer of peace combo. Wow, that kind of ticked me off one quest, but my thinking is if something is holding me back then *I* need to change my strategy to counter theirs. My biggest fear was my big, black, final dragon being held down and spanked to death. Even though I lost that final, I won by braking their combo and taking down their healer and coming 5H away from taking down their berserk. Had I had one more turn with Zackerith, the game would have been mine. Having the game at my disadvantage (that final was playing for the Heroes since they held me back earlier in the act) and getting so close to taking them down I think is good.

 

Instead of saying how unfair we OL have it, we need to think of ways to turn the tide. You don't like their combos? Find a way to mess them up. You don't like how they have money for weapons, hold them away from search tokens, however that might look. You don't like them leveling up, then figure out how to win with research to push them off.

 

We can do that with what we've got!

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Wow i'm glad I play to have fun cause each campaign I'd do the same **** and choose the same characters over and over again.  I play to have fun (Hero or OL) and choosing the "easy" path is not my style.

 

I'm glad some like this type of "powergaming" and i'm sure they have fun playing this way so I respect that.

 

I just like to try different avenues and mix/match eveytime I can do that...like playing with 4 Mages and laugh :P

This isn't a thread about "are you playing to have fun?"thread. "Are you telling the Heroes a good bed time story?" Thread. This thread is intended to find flaws with the game and we did( look above). If you have say 75% people buying a rpg game for the first time and complaining game favors OL then this game well head in wrong direction. The other 25% may be exsperianced players who offer reasonable salutions to repair the game. (Just an example)

I work with math for a living everyday and I can tell you without whipping out a calculator the OL needs help! Atleast help after act 2.

Every game video,table top, board game has design flaws. The conversion kit can add even more unbalance to the OL. When hero players go to find a combination to there liking and OL can't really do the same that's a flaw. Because hero players will know where there heroes power will be vs OL after a few quests. I can't simply go to my poor goblin and say " here goblin you need this new shinny bow and this speedy boots". Ahh all better!

 

 

I completely understand your point here but I'll defend mine to the death! :P

 

When I buy a game I know it'll have issues with it, it's been designed and develop buy human being bound to make errors.  When I buy a game I buy it to play it, not to find issues it may have...since I know there will be.

 

When I play a game I play to relax myself and think about something else, have fun with friends and laugh in the process, not to verbalise every issue we coma accross and break the mood of the evening...cause if I want mood breaking situations I only have to come to work and I get my fix.

 

When I get home I grab a beer, call some buddies, pick a game and play it.  And if something is clearly broken we'll continue playing anyways and maybe if we're feeling like it come up with a houserule that suites our group.

 

I'll repeat myself and that is something I already said in a couple other threads:

 

- My play style is a casual one where I play a game and don't care about flaws as long as everyone is have a blast around the table.  If someone doesn't enjoy himself/herself we'll discuss it after the game and create a hotfix for it.

 

- Some other people play styles is to study and dissect the game to it's core to find every issues it may have.  Then post on forums to let other players know of the issues and explain them and more ofthen than not some up with a quick fix.  I IMMENSELY respect them for taking the time peeling every layers of the game and let everyone know of the flaws they found.

 

So in summary, I extremely appreciate the time some take to find flaws but it'll not divert me nor my group in having fun with the game as is. :)

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If you have say 75% people buying a rpg game for the first time and complaining game favors OL then this game well head in wrong direction. The other 25% may be exsperianced players who offer reasonable salutions to repair the game. (Just an example)

Well, on BGG, there is a poll about which has had about 250 answers.

33% consider that the heroes are favoured

33% consider that the OL is favoured

33% consider that the game is balanced...

(and the majority, counting those who believe that Descent is balanced) consider that one side is at most "slightly"unbalanced (in one or the other direction).

 

So we are far from having an unanimous, massive belief (the "flaws" which some find are based upon only some factors and don't take the whole picture into account) that one side is more favoured that the other.

 

I think that, at the present stage of evaluation, the real question really is "do you have fun playing Descent  (as the OL, as the heroes) ?", whatever pretense of "serious" analysis of the game's balance the posters believe they can display.

 

Of course, playing the OL is not the same thing as playing the heroes, and one can naturally prefer one role over the other.

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Part of that poll should be how many players are involved.  In our group our experiance is that with five players it favors the heroes but with less it favors the Overlord.

Edited by Radish
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So polls and votes are accurate? Lol that's why there's always a perfect president....Meaning if 99% of the population were convinced on president A would be good one. And that president B was chosen by 1% of the population. Problem was president A proved to be the worst in history.

There is no way to prove that that 1% was right. That's my problem with voting/polls.

If you could separate fanboys,or I like it the way it is,or I like OL or Heroes better people(No pun intended), then there may be a chance for an accurate vote/poll. Say an amount of play throughs with players who have a good understanding of the rules (FFG refs). Players with the ability to adapt to OL and Heroes stratagies after a few games then we can see.

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I think the fact is that many heroes cry that the OL is OP and many OL cry that the heroes are OP. Would that not make the game balanced?

 

It's style of play and planing. That really tilts the scales in these games. And dice. I might not be a great strategist but the fact that whirlwind ALWAYS misses and I, the OL, have two misses in all the campaign speaks loudly enough. If the rolls where reversed then the heroes would have ripped me apart a long ago.

 

Play for good or evil, or go play Arkham and tell me what game balance is ^.~

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Do other groups play the same roles everytime?  At least in mine we rotate pretty much every different campaign and have had similar results every time.

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Play for good or evil, or go play Arkham and tell me what game balance is ^.~

Yeah, the last game of Arkham Horror I played, the players didn't have a chance. The game before that was won by closing gates in only about an hour.

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So polls and votes are accurate? 

If you could separate fanboys,or I like it the way it is,or I like OL or Heroes better people(No pun intended), then there may be a chance for an accurate vote/poll. Say an amount of play throughs with players who have a good understanding of the rules (FFG refs). Players with the ability to adapt to OL and Heroes stratagies after a few games then we can see.

Of course that polls like that one are not accurate.

But having 250 opinions expressed still has more chances to have more weight than an isolated player, stating a general opinion on the game's balance from his small personal experience...

 

Now, why would you exclude fanboys and people who like the game as it is?

Liking the game and finding that it works well would be a less valid opinion than saying that it is crap?

Why don't you mention the usual totally negative FFG bashers, who don't miss an occasion to express negatively biaised opinions?

 

Of course, experimented players who understand the rules are the most interesting to read.

 

The fact is that, whether expressed by "experimented" players or not, the opinions are quite diverse about the balance of Descent.

My present observation is that no serious proof that the game favours one side more than the other, in a general way, has been established.

And I believe that, more you add variants in the system (with the new monsters, heroes, conditions, secret rooms, rumor quests and other "chrome"), less the possibility of reaching a clear conclusion is possible.

 

IMO, this is fine, as I hope it will reduce the amount of whining about the supposed unbalance of the game, and generate more interesting contributions about tactics, playing styles, hero combos, etc.

Edited by Robin
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Hmm never said game was crap lol. Look at my previous posts that's how I feel about it! Who said I never played as Heroes I was the one that introduced my above tactic to the people I play with and they still use it today. Why? Because its hard to beat. "If it ain't broke why fix a strategy". Have you beat this tactic? All I heard was whining about "I hope my group don't learn this, but if they do ill just pull a rabbit out of a hat".

Why wouldn't I want fanboys ect. to play test with FFG refs? I already posted why because I don't want a wonky vote/poll election system it doesn't work it just places the wrong guy in office! Better idea a team of FFG playing the game with some civilian on lookers to record the event would be great.

Look I like this game a lot that's why I bother to put my two cents in. If I pay to play a game and I know there is away around the OL wouldn't it be wise knowing there's going to be exspansion after exspansion to get some more OL umph? Heck I'd like the next exspansion to be titled "OL love". For those players who seem to pull a rabbit out of a hat because they can then they won't need such an exspansion.

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Aww, but I like rabbits AND hats!

 

I will not turn down an expansion that gives a butt load of help for the OL, as I am our group's OL. I guess I don't mind the system the way it is as well. I don't think the OL is neglected as it is. With the conversion kit in hand, it can be pretty broken. My ice wyrms had them selves a few hero dinners and didn't complain.

 

I think we really need to see how LoR plays out as well. With SoR and LotW I can read the quests and KNOW which once I could win and which ones would be close or not win at all. With LoR, I'm not so sure. It's going to take some play time to see. There are some interesting ideas going for it, I think.

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Hmm never said game was crap lol.

Why wouldn't I want fanboys ect. to play test with FFG refs? I already posted why because I don't want a wonky vote/poll election system it doesn't work it just places the wrong guy in office! Better idea a team of FFG playing the game with some civilian on lookers to record the event would be great.

I did not aim at you personally.

 

Your reluctance about "fanboys" is strange.

If people who like the game, they are the target customers.

Better have such people lend a hand in the game's developement than have grumbling. whining self-proclaimed "experts" who would try to change the nature of the game to fit their grudges about it.

 

I don't see why "fanboys" would be less competent or less demanding about the quality of the game.

Unless you believe that being positive is a show of lesser intelligence than whining.

I know that there is a sort of "romantic aura" in bashing game designers or a a game system.

I believe that it is not more a show of intelligence than liking the game as it is and trying to pull out the best out of it.

 

From what I have seen, there are experimented players who like and dislike Descent.

Who would say that the latter are more competent in their judgements than the former?

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Well I have my opinion you have yours...my opinion doesn't require your understanding. Cheers!

And mine does not require your approval. You are funny.

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We played some quests and i have to say, that the OL is very strong. i think he is a bit overpowered. but it would be borring aswell if he would lose all the time. 

so we are looking forward to win some quests in the future. 

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2. Flame breath is your biggest DD skill, so stack your deck with very specific skills to maximize this: use the first half of a quest to pull most of your deck with "Unholy Ritual" and in the second half play:

 

- Frenzy

- Blood Rage

- Rise Again

- Frenzy

- Blood Rage

 

As Robin already mentioned OL cannot play the same ability twice on the same target. So if you have been playing like this - you have been playing incorrectly.

I really do not see how OL can play against Grisban as a berserker, who has 18 health, black (act 2 armor) and grey defensive dice, 4  stamina (trinket that adds 1 stamina), and the act 2 axe with two red dice. It is an undying, unstopable killing machine that can literally kill a red dragon with a single hit. And additionaly has 3 supporters who can heal, DMG, loot....

 

 

The list of skills is refering to sequence not timing. If you've read the cards you realize that "Rise again" doesn't kick in untill the next over lord turn when the target monster gets another activation and so can use the second "Frenzy" and "Death Rage".

 

In my last game I was up against a knight rolling Black, Grey, Brown using Defend on all his little buddies. Flame Breath owns because you can't use defend on guys hit by flame breath. (It's not specificaly "Targeting" them.)

 

The second thing that makes this combo so good is it doesn't rely on your monster living. You rush in, "Frenzy", Kill your own monster with "Blood Rage" and then drop "Rise again".

Your next turn you get your monster back and "Frenzy" and "Blood Rage" it again before "Rise Again" wears of at the end of the turn. It's sick. 

 

If you're holding almost all 15 cards, and have another "Unholy Ritual" or if mannaged to pick up "Price of Prevention" sometimes you can actually draw "Rise again" a second time to use after the second blood rage, and continue the massacre for one MORE turn.

 

Keep in mind that it never gets executed perfectly, but its designed to work well as long as you're holding some combination of "Blood Rage" "frenzy" and "Rise Again". This represents 5 card's or 1/3 of your deck so chances are you'll be holding some of them.

 

-M

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The list of skills is refering to sequence not timing. If you've read the cards you realize that "Rise again" doesn't kick in untill the next over lord turn when the target monster gets another activation and so can use the second "Frenzy" and "Death Rage".

 

In my last game I was up against a knight rolling Black, Grey, Brown using Defend on all his little buddies. Flame Breath owns because you can't use defend on guys hit by flame breath. (It's not specificaly "Targeting" them.)

 

The second thing that makes this combo so good is it doesn't rely on your monster living. You rush in, "Frenzy", Kill your own monster with "Blood Rage" and then drop "Rise again".

Your next turn you get your monster back and "Frenzy" and "Blood Rage" it again before "Rise Again" wears of at the end of the turn. It's sick. 

 

If you're holding almost all 15 cards, and have another "Unholy Ritual" or if mannaged to pick up "Price of Prevention" sometimes you can actually draw "Rise again" a second time to use after the second blood rage, and continue the massacre for one MORE turn.

 

Keep in mind that it never gets executed perfectly, but its designed to work well as long as you're holding some combination of "Blood Rage" "frenzy" and "Rise Again". This represents 5 card's or 1/3 of your deck so chances are you'll be holding some of them.

 

-M

 

 

Oooh, I really like that. I wonder how that will stack up with Basic II cards. I am really looking into warlord class for our next comapaign due to how LoR seems to roll out (I have only read all the quests, not played any of them). It sounds nasty enough for me to utalize. And it has Magus as it's backing. My favorite class! I feared I would have to give it up!

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In my experience (6 campains played, all with 4 heroes) The OL only has the distinction of being "OP" in the begining.

I've noticed that the majority of the "OL is OP"  are still playing in there 1st or second campain.

 

Once the heroes have figured the game out, what skills work and which ones to avoid, the heroes become OP.

Again I've noticed that the majority of the "Heroes are OP" have played multiple campians.

 

It comes down to this.

 

My group has put this game on the shelf for one reason.

No one wants to play the Overlord.

It's an uphill struggle to win at best, and it's nowhere close to as fun or easy as playing a hero.

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