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DocPanic

Poor Overlord (heroes OP?)

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To clearify:

I would like the Overlord to have a chance to boost his monsters permanently with some Equippment he is using. Like always one HP more (which would be not very much) or making more damage. This could be realised with a set of OL cards which he can by and lay out in front of him, like a Hero Skill Card, or only stuff them to a group of monsters.

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I now have a really nice set od D1E: Base game + AoD + ToI + WoD + RtL + Quest compendium.  

 

I read the rules yesterday and  many got ported to D2E but some not.  I can also see how D1E is the "better" game when comparing to LOS and decisions/options available during a turn.

 

I can also see how D1E is more bloody when you check the quests and what each side must do to win.  I think i'm gonna love D1E quite a lot.

 

Concerning D2E I still like this game for it's short playtime (when I don't want to wake up the next morning with red eyes and a permanent yawn) and the dungeon crawl fix it give me.  I really love the art direction and the way the campaign flows.

 

I do hope that one of the future expansion will give the OL more options and more punch cause he deserves it much more then any other bad guy :P

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[...]

I do hope that one of the future expansion will give the OL more options and more punch cause he deserves it much more then any other bad guy :P

+1

Totally agree.

In fact, I think, that the Overlord is a good guy, giving the Heroes a formidable oponent and a enjoyable evening. So please give him more choices, more punch!

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Simple things OL can do VS 4 opponents, I've used this to great effect so far.

 

1. Always chose large monsters

 

2. Flame breath is your biggest DD skill, so stack your deck with very specific skills to maximize this: use the first half of a quest to pull most of your deck with "Unholy Ritual" and in the second half play:

 

- Frenzy

- Blood Rage

- Rise Again

- Frenzy

- Blood Rage

 

This will give you like 8 attacks with your flame breath monster, even if they have huge DPS. Some will hopefully will proc flame breath, when this hits throw down "Critical Blow" and "Dark Might" to boost damage and you can often wipe the party...

 

3. In my experience OL has major problems winning most of act I. Just try to deny search tokens until act II when your DPS can actually reliably keep hero's down.

 

4. Unfortunately, I've found because hero's have way more skills that stack on each other, they often are accidentally exploited to be more powerful then they actually are. This means that OL needs to know the rules twice as well as the hero's and lawyer the **** out of them if they are to be successful. One or Two misunderstood hero abilities can completely ruin an OL's chances.

 

5. Notice that you will do better during the beginning of act I and act II as your monster are stronger in relation to the hero's. If you can, choose quests with better rewards (expansion quests especially) at the beginning of the acts. 

 

If there is mercy in your heart you will never win, the hero's in this game are extremely resilient.

Edited by Big Cigar

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2. Flame breath is your biggest DD skill, so stack your deck with very specific skills to maximize this: use the first half of a quest to pull most of your deck with "Unholy Ritual" and in the second half play:

 

- Frenzy

- Blood Rage

- Rise Again

- Frenzy

- Blood Rage

 

As Robin already mentioned OL cannot play the same ability twice on the same target. So if you have been playing like this - you have been playing incorrectly.

I really do not see how OL can play against Grisban as a berserker, who has 18 health, black (act 2 armor) and grey defensive dice, 4  stamina (trinket that adds 1 stamina), and the act 2 axe with two red dice. It is an undying, unstopable killing machine that can literally kill a red dragon with a single hit. And additionaly has 3 supporters who can heal, DMG, loot....

 

 

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I would consider, too, that direct confrontation is not always the best way to go.

If the OL can slow down the heroes, hinder their actions, etc. he can win quests which have a "race against the watch" aspect.

 

I have some doubts about general statements about the heroes or OL being OP: both are expressed by players who insist on their being experimented gamers.

It seems that, in Descent 2, a situation can suddenly swing in favour of one of the sides involved.

The factors can be luck, skilfull maneuver (or dumb move), the quest's favouring one or the other, a good combination of heroes and/or monsters in the specific situation, etc.

 

Up to now, I still cannot make up my mind about a possible general imbalance in the game.

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I would consider, too, that direct confrontation is not always the best way to go.

If the OL can slow down the heroes, hinder their actions, etc. he can win quests which have a "race against the watch" aspect.

 

What I mean is that in some cases OL don't even have a chance to slow down the heroes as monsters that suppose to play a  "slow down" role are getting killed before they have a chance to do anything.

After several campaigns played, my opinion is that group of 4 heroes (taking into account that players are not complete idiots) leaves almost no chances for the OL to win.

 

 

Or may be is that just my group that consists of super smart tacticians =)))

Edited by poet1001

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I read your opinion, which is based upon a good experience of the game.

I have read other players - who seem quite experimented too - saying that the OL is OP.

In my much lesser experience, I saw both OL and heroes steamroll their opponent and I also have seen quests being just won by a single dice roll.

There are so many factors involved that I would not just jump upon the conclusion that some players are idiots or geniuses...

 

What would be nice, would be a sort of online registering of games played - with details about conditions (campaign, heroes and monsters involved), so a general picture can be drawn about the global game balance.

It would not be an absolute way to measure things, and the more games are played, the more the picture will be interesting to study.

 

Such system exists for Advanced Squad Leader ("ROAR") and helps see what scenarios are balanced (or not).

Usually, no decisive conclusion can be drawn if a scenario was played less than 50 times.

 

I am quite sure that there are more Descent players than ASL ones, so such an online stats system could have some sense.

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After playing a full quest as the OL for Shadow Ruin, I feel I have a little experience. Just a wee bit. And enough to know that though I am the only girl in our group playing, no man will be throwing me from my thrown >}

 

So, I had one rather salty player and one loud mouth accusing me of being overpowered (at that point I had won enough to win Overlord Revealed) which landed me in a tricky place. I felt, as the GM/OL I should have some mercy, so I "gave" them back the shadow staff (giving them the staff of light) in the quest where they could get it back. Basically, I meant to lose that quest.

 

It was stupid. Stupid Stupid Stupid.

 

I lost the campaign because of it. BUT, in the long run, everyone is happier. I am a better loser of the bunch so I didn't mind. Will I try to lose again. NO. ^.~ I held their hand for Shadow Ruin. It's Labyrinth time and I am going to lay on the hurt.

 

For new OLs and their new groups, if you are having a hard time winning there might be a few reasons for that.

The OL has to remember ALLOT! I write everything down. I write down all their stats, all their skills and all their equipment.

I plan at least an hour in the week before playing it with them. (I'm a slow brewer, so I often take longer then an hour to look over a quest). I read on how others might have played a quest, or see what monsters others think are good. I write that down. Knowlage and planing are your best friend. Please look at the Wiki for any character and monster stats you might not have on hand.

 

Give your heroes time to plan together. Often times, in our group, the only time they have to plan is right before the quest because they all have to come together to do that. I suggested me putting in my headphones and letting me draw humiliating pictures of me smashing their faces in while they plan (yes, I do that. I am an artist. They tempt me. The best moment in our game play was when my etten was playing toss the scout. It is illustrated and it is beautiful. >} I'm evil). Having that time makes EVERYONE happy. I can't hear what they are saying and they can't hear what I am thinking. We are on level playing field. 

 

On the other hand, while playing, take note of everything being said and plan for it. Having a fist full of cards, a devilishly handsome grin and leaning forward in your seat can turn any game into your favor even if your hand is full of crap. I have stalled out two turns that way, no joke. Stalling is my specialty.

 

Have fun. If you can't do that in a campaign, then do some epic plays. Last night we did Frozen Spire. I SHOULD have won that one, but I chose Kobolds as my ambush group at the end of the game. Why? Because they are the stupidest monster group EVER! and I was dieing to use them where it didn't matter. We had allot of fun and laughed. It felt good to lose that because it was stupid and because it wasn't demanding on the long run.

 

If all this doesn't help, then maybe you aren't cut out to be the OL. There is nothing wrong with that. Trust me, it takes a spacial person to be evil. Be a hero, and let someone else bash your face in >} it might be better that way. But the fact remains. You HAVE ti have fun. If you can't do that, then you need a new game. Go play Arkham x.x

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Kunzite...i'm very disappointed in your behavior!!!!!!! :P

Giving away a relic to those filthy do-gooder Heroes?!!??!?! Shame on you!

 

More seriously, I can understand your move especially when you have players accusing you of being OP...which IMO is completely ridiculous.  

 

How I see it:

- A good OL player will win against meh Hero players

- A meh OL player will lose against good Hero players

- When both sides are on equal grounds talent wise, both will have equal chances of winning.

 

MEH player: A meh player is either a new player discovering the game or simply a bad player that doesn't really understand it's role and what he have to do to win.  Example: Our last campaign our OL played to kill us most of the time, choosing huge monsters when small and quick monsters would be the best.  He didn't cared much about his objective and ended up winnin only one quest in the whole campaign.  I tried to make him understand that he should focus more on his objkective and not on the Heroes but it didn't do the trick.  Sure it was his first time with the game and i'm sure he'll get better.  He is our Mansions of Madness Keeper and he's merciless and really good!  So after our first campaign I think he understood what his role was and how to play the next time.

 

I'd say, play more one-shot quests so that everyone understand what the game is about and what you have to do in a quest to win.  Both sides have objectives and when you play the objective you get closer to winning.

 

Sure there's quests that lean towards one side but overall, if everyone play to their best, all will have a chance at winning.

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Kunzite...i'm very disappointed in your behavior!!!!!!! :P

Giving away a relic to those filthy do-gooder Heroes?!!??!?! Shame on you!

 

 

Sure there's quests that lean towards one side but overall, if everyone play to their best, all will have a chance at winning.

 

But... Ah... mah... *sits in corner of shame*

 

All in all, our first run was almost one for one. Heroes did badly act one (I cleaned the floor with their crippled bodies!) but act two opened up a whole new world for the heroes. Grim was a horrible act one character while act two I stayed as far away from him as I could, only attacking him with reach monsters. Even my Lut. where an arm's reach of him. They would have done circles around me even if I didn't give them the staff of light.

 

We have done a few Epic Quests before going into another campaign. I have tried other class cards and they have tried other characters. We have allot of characters to play around with since the new expansion came out and we got the conversion kit. If you guys think it's hard now, wait till they get their hands on some nasty heroes. But fear not! There was more dirty tricks with the OL cards.

 

Last advice. Getting quests with toys is nice, but not always the best root. Getting bigger and better cards (ie getting XP) might be what will win it for you. Most quests you win in this manner will also deprive your heroes of money. This is GOOD. More money=better toys for them. Trust me, you want them to hang onto that chipped ax for as long as you can.

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+1 to DocPanic

I absolutely agree that heroes are really over powered, especially when you are playing against 4 heroes. Me and my playing group were really surprised when FF nerfed OL even more with the last FAQ. I also agree that OL is not enough rewarded, and the time between quests (when playing campaign) is not that fun for the OL as for the heroes.

Just as an example - in our last campaign, Grisban (berserker), had an axe from second act shop which gives two red dice, he basically could (and actually did couple of times) kill a red dragon with a single hit. Desciple would buff him with a yellow dice so Grisban rolled: 1 yellow, 2 red, 1 blue. Then he also added surg from the wepon mastery ability that he had. The amount of damage he could inflict was just devastating.

Aditionally all hereos were armed to the teath as Tomble playing as a thiev managed to collect 95% of treasures. Heroes could purchase everything they wanted and in the end they even had unspent gold.

In the campaign I mentioned I was playing for one of the heroes and it was really not enough challenge for me….

So I would also ask FF not to nerf OL anymore but instead add some more options and tools to deal with heroes.

I'm experiencing the same thing: 4 heroes (all female characters with better classes), all best weapons and armors from phase 1 (won every encounter, collected every item - > [yellow] rune blaster of minimum of 3 hp hit + reroll, [blue] stunner/healer, [red] armoured tank 3 armour dices with 3 rerolls and [green] fast ranged). Interlude to phase 2 took 13 h because they calculated every possible turn outcome, I made 1 mistake and then it was there (after 13 h).

 

As an OL I'm collecting Magnus. As an OL I'm being nerffed in every update. As an OL I gain no joy in this game.

 

'Yay all my dragons are one shotted' 'Yay all my monsters are stunned' 'Yay I made mistake and in their turn they win'

 

It is frustrang to play as OL when heroes are 'cloud computing' everything and killing 1 minion goblin archer takes 1 h.

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Thirteen hours!

It seems you are confronted on a bunch of "thinker" type players.

Such slow play kills all the fun, IMO.

I would establish some time limits, in that quite extreme case.

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Right off the bat, I'll just go out and say I can't quite put a vote either way if the game is balanced or unbalanced. But that's entirely because of my gaming group, and not due to the game. But I choose to believe the game is balanced: y'all can bash on my opinion if you'd like.

 

My experience with this game has been one full run of Shadow Rune as OL, and about half a run through as a hero player. I should note I'm the self-appointed most tactical and strategical person in my group (ego needed a good waxing today).

 

As an OL, I admittedly play in a downgraded way by occasionally taking it easy on my heroes: yes it's a competitive game, but I think the fun factor is paramount. Some encounter are swayed towards OL, some heroes, but our group still maintained about a 50/50 split of OL to hero wins. On quests I do go easy, it's always only a little bit, but the heroes quickly avalanche to a point where even when I try to put the hurt on, they can wipe the floor with me. I like combat, so I usually go out of my way to perform it: maybe if I concentrated more on my objectives, I'd put the hurt on even more.

 

As a hero, I found we were pretty blasted. My OL actually played the game correctly, meaning she actively tried to win with every fiber of her essence. This was when I learned I wasn't a very good hero: as Geomancer and Necromancer (three person game with one OL and two players playing 2 heroes each), This campaign was also when we learned that heroes are not supposed to heal themselves of damage between quest encounters, and I absolutely hated it (our first campaign saw heroes incorrectly discarding all fatigue and damage between encounters). This has since been houseruled: even knowing it only benefits the heroes, I still think it's crappy even though I foresee myself being the OL in all our future campaigns. Anyways, we stopped this campaign halfway through because even though our OL has murdering us (and enjoying it) she felt being OL was too much work and preferred to be a hero.

 

I think this says a lot about the game, at least in my experience: a semi-competent OL can slaughter meh heroes. But in that same vein, I think if those heroes got better and learned from their mistakes (as we have), they'd definitely make the OL run for his money. Which would only make the OL get better. I think the balance restores itself.

 

My experience is probably atypical, and I assume the majority of everyone who reads this will find inherent flaws in how we play, but I don't really care. I'm just gonna go on being a nice OL and have fun with my heroes  :D

Edited by JBouthietteJr
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+1 to DocPanic

I absolutely agree that heroes are really over powered, especially when you are playing against 4 heroes. Me and my playing group were really surprised when FF nerfed OL even more with the last FAQ. I also agree that OL is not enough rewarded, and the time between quests (when playing campaign) is not that fun for the OL as for the heroes.

Just as an example - in our last campaign, Grisban (berserker), had an axe from second act shop which gives two red dice, he basically could (and actually did couple of times) kill a red dragon with a single hit. Desciple would buff him with a yellow dice so Grisban rolled: 1 yellow, 2 red, 1 blue. Then he also added surg from the wepon mastery ability that he had. The amount of damage he could inflict was just devastating.

Aditionally all hereos were armed to the teath as Tomble playing as a thiev managed to collect 95% of treasures. Heroes could purchase everything they wanted and in the end they even had unspent gold.

In the campaign I mentioned I was playing for one of the heroes and it was really not enough challenge for me….

So I would also ask FF not to nerf OL anymore but instead add some more options and tools to deal with heroes.

I'm experiencing the same thing: 4 heroes (all female characters with better classes), all best weapons and armors from phase 1 (won every encounter, collected every item - > [yellow] rune blaster of minimum of 3 hp hit + reroll, [blue] stunner/healer, [red] armoured tank 3 armour dices with 3 rerolls and [green] fast ranged). Interlude to phase 2 took 13 h because they calculated every possible turn outcome, I made 1 mistake and then it was there (after 13 h).

 

As an OL I'm collecting Magnus. As an OL I'm being nerffed in every update. As an OL I gain no joy in this game.

 

'Yay all my dragons are one shotted' 'Yay all my monsters are stunned' 'Yay I made mistake and in their turn they win'

 

It is frustrang to play as OL when heroes are 'cloud computing' everything and killing 1 minion goblin archer takes 1 h.

 

 

Is it just me or the Magus set is not the best?!?

 

Maybe it's just my playstyle but I mostly skip the Magus cards and often go Warlord/Punisher.  I'm not the kind that like to play with trap toys :P

 

Maybe try a new level tree and if you have LoR try the new Basic II cards, they look quite fun, but a bit more situationnal and some have extra effects when played on a specific archetype.

 

The more you'll play the better you'll get!

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Is it just me or the Magus set is not the best?!?

 

Maybe it's just my playstyle but I mostly skip the Magus cards and often go Warlord/Punisher.  I'm not the kind that like to play with trap toys :P

 

I played Magus with a splash of sabator. It worked well for me. Matter of fact the heroes HATED everything about my deck. <3 I loved it, though this time around I might go for more sabator with warrior class. It all depends on what is needed for Labryenth.

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My experience is probably atypical, and I assume the majority of everyone who reads this will find inherent flaws in how we play, but I don't really care. I'm just gonna go on being a nice OL and have fun with my heroes  :D

 

I won't blame you for anything.

At least, you know what you are doing and you are not blaming the game.

There presently are two active threads, starting for one on the premise that the OL is OP and for the other that the OL does not stand a chance.

Call that cosmical balance or whatever, to me it shows that blaming the game for being as a whole unbalanced in only one side's favour is not very serious - until deicisive, general reasons are given, rather than anecdotical or very localized (i.e. limited to a single group of players) references.

 

And I fully agree that the aim of all gaming is fun.

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How to win as a hero player(campaign only)take a healer class Disciple class is good (why?).Because with prayer of healing you are automatically taking power away from OL rendering his conditions useless. Since you can't die until the end of game try this. In act 1 focus on all search tokens. Loosing a quest is only a minor set back! Don't buy any act 1 gear unless its really good. Beat any quest you can (and you will)don't worry if you loose them in act 2 you'll make it up in unbeatable power. In act 2 spend your fortune on good act 2 gear. In act 2 you should beat all quests and all monsters with ease. The end game is where it's at (to the death). If you successively gear up your heroes buy good skills you'll do better then average against any OL in my opinion. Think of the game as a first to power wins. You could focus your efforts on every quest but in a game where you can't die or loose until the end a heroes primary goal is money, and loot then skills not exactly in that order but you can figure out what you need at the right time like skills.

Some changes I'd like to see in this game is. #1 when a hero gets KO they shouldn't just be allowed to just get up. A KO should be the worse thing that can happen to a hero and the OL player should be better rewarded for the effort(getting a card? Lol). How about a KO hero needs to roll some sort of die to get up then roll for the gain of wounds. OL reward? Well the reward is they might not get up on there turn. #2 Conditions look i want to make them suffer. #3 I want the OL to become as powerful as a hero can in act 2....

I've lost to the above strategy more then I want to remember. And I've won a few it's possible. Bad rollers,crappy shop cards to name a low possibility.

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How to win as a hero player(campaign only)take a healer class Disciple class is good (why?).Because with prayer of healing you are automatically taking power away from OL rendering his conditions useless. Since you can't die until the end of game try this. In act 1 focus on all search tokens. Loosing a quest is only a minor set back! Don't buy any act 1 gear unless its really good. Beat any quest you can (and you will)don't worry if you loose them in act 2 you'll make it up in unbeatable power. In act 2 spend your fortune on good act 2 gear. In act 2 you should beat all quests and all monsters with ease. The end game is where it's at (to the death). If you successively gear up your heroes buy good skills you'll do better then average against any OL in my opinion. Think of the game as a first to power wins. You could focus your efforts on every quest but in a game where you can't die or loose until the end a heroes primary goal is money, and loot then skills not exactly in that order but you can figure out what you need at the right time like skills.

Some changes I'd like to see in this game is. #1 when a hero gets KO they shouldn't just be allowed to just get up. A KO should be the worse thing that can happen to a hero and the OL player should be better rewarded for the effort(getting a card? Lol). How about a KO hero needs to roll some sort of die to get up then roll for the gain of wounds. OL reward? Well the reward is they might not get up on there turn. #2 Conditions look i want to make them suffer. #3 I want the OL to become as powerful as a hero can in act 2....

I've lost to the above strategy more then I want to remember. And I've won a few it's possible. Bad rollers,crappy shop cards to name a low possibility.

 

 

I over herd my heroes talking about this. I am not looking forward to this because I KNOW this is the best plan. They are also talking about taking the thief's quest for Labyrinth. I'm already cringing. As you might expect, that root takes you through allot of money before act two. But like anything else they have ever thrown at me, I will be thinking about how to counter that...

 

I think my saving grace if the fact that they hate to lose, and there for will try, hard, to win.

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Wow i'm glad I play to have fun cause each campaign I'd do the same **** and choose the same characters over and over again.  I play to have fun (Hero or OL) and choosing the "easy" path is not my style.

 

I'm glad some like this type of "powergaming" and i'm sure they have fun playing this way so I respect that.

 

I just like to try different avenues and mix/match eveytime I can do that...like playing with 4 Mages and laugh :P

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Wow i'm glad I play to have fun cause each campaign I'd do the same **** and choose the same characters over and over again.  I play to have fun (Hero or OL) and choosing the "easy" path is not my style.

 

I'm glad some like this type of "powergaming" and i'm sure they have fun playing this way so I respect that.

 

I just like to try different avenues and mix/match eveytime I can do that...like playing with 4 Mages and laugh :P

 

Exactly this! My group started another run through Shadow Ruin, but my copy of Labyrinth should be showing up tomorrow, and I'm hoping my heroes will be okay with me integrating the new monsters into our already-started campaign. And if they do, the first moment I can get zombies and arachyura onto the same field, I'm going to! Wimpy little brown-die-defense zombies to make the heroes feel good about themselves, then a giant freakin' spider to mess with their day. Or better yet, TWO giant freakin' spiders  :D

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Exactly this! My group started another run through Shadow Ruin, but my copy of Labyrinth should be showing up tomorrow, and I'm hoping my heroes will be okay with me integrating the new monsters into our already-started campaign. And if they do, the first moment I can get zombies and arachyura onto the same field, I'm going to! Wimpy little brown-die-defense zombies to make the heroes feel good about themselves, then a giant freakin' spider to mess with their day. Or better yet, TWO giant freakin' spiders  :D

 

 

 

Nice! Looks like a fun mix to play with! I really like the new monsters from LoR, they look great and seem to pack some punch! 

 

I'm starting a mini-campaign tonight as the OL with my bro since he wants to try the Heroes side and get the feel of a campaign, so the LotW mini-campaign is a cool way to get into the game and keep the general character progression feel.

 

There's nothing that would stop you from using the new monsters in an ongoing campaign apart from the players you play with.  If they don't want to don't use them...but if they don't want the new monsters I would not give them the new Shop Items, conditions and other mixable stuff and evil laugh at their faces :P

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This will be our second campaign, and our first one where MOST people don't get salty. At least, if I can convince my arachnophobia friend that LoR is not the set she wants to play. Oooh spiders >} She gets really salty always and isn't a huge team player. She would do better with a one on one.

 

Saying that, the Heroes are still trying to get a feel for how they want to play. They already know how I like to torment them. We laugh hard when my illustrations of them come out. I often tease them about putting them into the female clothing to the characters they chose. It kept my very manly friend from choosing Scarlet, a skimpy character from the conversion kit. >] I might do it anyways. Just once.

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My experience is probably atypical, and I assume the majority of everyone who reads this will find inherent flaws in how we play, but I don't really care. I'm just gonna go on being a nice OL and have fun with my heroes  :D

 

I won't blame you for anything.

At least, you know what you are doing and you are not blaming the game.

There presently are two active threads, starting for one on the premise that the OL is OP and for the other that the OL does not stand a chance.

Call that cosmical balance or whatever, to me it shows that blaming the game for being as a whole unbalanced in only one side's favour is not very serious - until deicisive, general reasons are given, rather than anecdotical or very localized (i.e. limited to a single group of players) references.

 

And I fully agree that the aim of all gaming is fun.

 

Oh, thanks.

But I was not only complaining about the game balance. I stay with the idea that the heroes advance much faster.

I also mentioned, that the OL does not have the same possibilities in advancing.

While the heros loot, buy, level you only get to choose one single card (or not). And you even can be beaten before you

draw it.

 

To love this game again, I only would like the OL to get more choices. To but skills and gear for his minions (e.g. the red ones). And in act 2 the monster definitly need more power (damage AND health). With 3 dice (sometimes 4, if you have the priest) you definitly can kill EVERYTHING very fast.

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