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Plushy

Change to RoF Rules

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Neither the old (pre-BC) nor the new RoF rules sit well with me. I just don't like them! My proposed fix, which hasn't been playtested but I want input on;

Single Shot: no modifier to hit.

Semi-Auto: no modifier to hit. Inflicts a hit every DoS beyond the original, the way Full-Auto currently works. This reflects the tight grouping in a small burst.

Full Auto: no modifier to hit. Inflicts a hit every two DoS beyond the original, the way Semi-Auto currently works. This reflects the inherent inaccuracyin spraying and praying.

 

This encourages higher BS scores and makes Semi-Auto more viable, which is important to me. I didn't like how Full Auto was the key to victory in the old rules, but the whole "if you take a second to aim and fire one bullet, your odds of hitting go up 20%" thing that the current rules are rocking. This change makes it so the trained marksman are better at shooting while those with no clue which end has the bullets coming out of it shouldn't flock to one magical fire setting. Soldiers should be using tight, controlled bursts more often than they take individual shots or spraying lead (las?) all over the place.

 

Thoughts?

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My first thought was this: Then why does my Autogun have a RoF of S/3/10?

Are you planning on switching the RoF to look something like S/10/3? (S/5/3 might work…) 
Or will you change them altogether?

However, I agree with your sentiments regarding BS to-hit modifiers based on RoF.
 

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The new rules are based (Rather loosely) on real world gun physics.

To Paraphrase what you are doing perhaps:

Semi-Auto: Straight roll to hit +1 hit per addit. degree of success.

Full Auto: +10 to hit +1 hit per 2 addit. DOS. (Unfortunate truth, Short controlled bursts at  increase the odds of hitting something! But to add additional damage is another matter.) This also means that the player will choose between greater accuracy and greater chance to hit

Note: Vehicle mounted weapons should never use the same bonuses as personal weapons. Rather they should be given a "Fire control bonus" that would apply to whatever weapon type is mounted.

 

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Plushy said:

Neither the old (pre-BC) nor the new RoF rules sit well with me. I just don't like them! My proposed fix, which hasn't been playtested but I want input on;

Single Shot: no modifier to hit.

Semi-Auto: no modifier to hit. Inflicts a hit every DoS beyond the original, the way Full-Auto currently works. This reflects the tight grouping in a small burst.

Full Auto: no modifier to hit. Inflicts a hit every two DoS beyond the original, the way Semi-Auto currently works. This reflects the inherent inaccuracyin spraying and praying.

 

This encourages higher BS scores and makes Semi-Auto more viable, which is important to me. I didn't like how Full Auto was the key to victory in the old rules, but the whole "if you take a second to aim and fire one bullet, your odds of hitting go up 20%" thing that the current rules are rocking. This change makes it so the trained marksman are better at shooting while those with no clue which end has the bullets coming out of it shouldn't flock to one magical fire setting. Soldiers should be using tight, controlled bursts more often than they take individual shots or spraying lead (las?) all over the place.

 

Thoughts?

How about this:

Single Shot (Half Action)- +10 to BS Tests, may benefit from Aim Actions (Half and Full), may benefit from any and all targeting/sighting devices, any Success equals one (1) hit (The benefit of +10 for the Single Shot representing not hurrying the shot; with a Single Shot, a Half Action Aim, a Red-Dot sight, and Short Range there is then a +40 to BS Tests, which I feel is acceptable for the return of only one shot…that still might miss, or do crap Damage).

Semi-Auto (Half Action)- +/-0 to BS Tests, may not benefit from Aim Actions, may benefit from targeting/sighting* devices up to the weapon's maximum Short Range (so up to 50m with an M36 Lasgun…not shabby), one (1) hit per 2 DoS up to the weapon's Semi-Auto RoF (*This allows for the Red-dot sight to remain somewhat effective; if GMs are running extensive crossover games this rule does not affect the operational value of Spore Targeters; Without the benefit of +10 for the Single Shot or Half Action Aim there is still a +20 to BS Tests at Short Range, which I feel is still a considerable advantage considering the myriad other factors such as Personal and Cover AP, Fatigue, etc). Chances are still good for scoring more than one hit, and (IMO) the more Damage dice rolled the better.

Full Auto (Full Action)- -10 to BS Tests, may not benefit from Aim Actions, may not benefit from targeting/sighting devices (aside from Spore Targeters and Motion Predictors), Standard Success (aka 1 DoS) is one (1) hit, changing to two (2) hits per 2 DoS up to the weapon's Full Auto RoF(Consider that a person firing on Full Auto is likely either A- attempting to hit multiple targets in a hurry, without regard to accuracy, or B- attempting to suppress; at Short Range there is +/-0 to BS Tests, and the number of hits steps up a bit more gradually than the Full Auto RAW: 1 With 1 DoS on Full Auto you receive one (1) hit, 2-3 DoS results in two (2) hits, 4-5 DoS results in four (4) hits, and so on. By "skipping" a DoS before awarding the weapon's full RoF it protrays the inaccuracy of the "spray and pray" mentality, but higher DoS (gained from higher BS scores) still result in more hits. If GMs are using Horde Rules from Deathwatch this Full Auto fire receives a very generous bonus to hit based on the Horde Magnitude, and even if GMs are instead using the Advanced Horde Rules from Tome of Blood (Black Crusade) the shooter still receives (at most) +10 to BS Tests.

These House Rules do the same as yours- encourage higher BS scores. Also, they are not intended to interact with or be cumulative with the rules for Suppressing Fire/Overwatch (two completely different balls of wax).

I'd be inclined to further modify BS Tests for Full Auto in the event a firefight suddenly errupted within a relatively small and enclosed environment that was free of obstruction (say +10 if within a 15'x15' bedroom, +20 within an 3'-4'-wide hallway or average bathroom, and +30 if shooting at fish in a barrel). 

Speaking personally, I think the Full Auto House Rules (above) are acceptable. I don't think Full Auto was ever really meant to be game-breaking, it just worked out that way and the developers reacted by swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction…then a little back, again.

I feel Full Auto should be reserved for larger individual targets, massed targets (such as Hordes), and Suppressing Fire/Overwatch. Popping off a mess of shots on a guy little better than yourself is wasteful overkill and indicative of a panicky soldier.     

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Alekzanter said:

Plushy said:

 

Neither the old (pre-BC) nor the new RoF rules sit well with me. I just don't like them! My proposed fix, which hasn't been playtested but I want input on;

Single Shot: no modifier to hit.

Semi-Auto: no modifier to hit. Inflicts a hit every DoS beyond the original, the way Full-Auto currently works. This reflects the tight grouping in a small burst.

Full Auto: no modifier to hit. Inflicts a hit every two DoS beyond the original, the way Semi-Auto currently works. This reflects the inherent inaccuracyin spraying and praying.

 

This encourages higher BS scores and makes Semi-Auto more viable, which is important to me. I didn't like how Full Auto was the key to victory in the old rules, but the whole "if you take a second to aim and fire one bullet, your odds of hitting go up 20%" thing that the current rules are rocking. This change makes it so the trained marksman are better at shooting while those with no clue which end has the bullets coming out of it shouldn't flock to one magical fire setting. Soldiers should be using tight, controlled bursts more often than they take individual shots or spraying lead (las?) all over the place.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

How about this:

Single Shot (Half Action)- +10 to BS Tests, may benefit from Aim Actions (Half and Full), may benefit from any and all targeting/sighting devices, any Success equals one (1) hit (The benefit of +10 for the Single Shot representing not hurrying the shot; with a Single Shot, a Half Action Aim, a Red-Dot sight, and Short Range there is then a +40 to BS Tests, which I feel is acceptable for the return of only one shot…that still might miss, or do crap Damage).

Semi-Auto (Half Action)- +/-0 to BS Tests, may not benefit from Aim Actions, may benefit from targeting/sighting* devices up to the weapon's maximum Short Range (so up to 50m with an M36 Lasgun…not shabby), one (1) hit per 2 DoS up to the weapon's Semi-Auto RoF (*This allows for the Red-dot sight to remain somewhat effective; if GMs are running extensive crossover games this rule does not affect the operational value of Spore Targeters; Without the benefit of +10 for the Single Shot or Half Action Aim there is still a +20 to BS Tests at Short Range, which I feel is still a considerable advantage considering the myriad other factors such as Personal and Cover AP, Fatigue, etc). Chances are still good for scoring more than one hit, and (IMO) the more Damage dice rolled the better.

Full Auto (Full Action)- -10 to BS Tests, may not benefit from Aim Actions, may not benefit from targeting/sighting devices (aside from Spore Targeters and Motion Predictors), Standard Success (aka 1 DoS) is one (1) hit, changing to two (2) hits per 2 DoS up to the weapon's Full Auto RoF(Consider that a person firing on Full Auto is likely either A- attempting to hit multiple targets in a hurry, without regard to accuracy, or B- attempting to suppress; at Short Range there is +/-0 to BS Tests, and the number of hits steps up a bit more gradually than the Full Auto RAW: 1 With 1 DoS on Full Auto you receive one (1) hit, 2-3 DoS results in two (2) hits, 4-5 DoS results in four (4) hits, and so on. By "skipping" a DoS before awarding the weapon's full RoF it protrays the inaccuracy of the "spray and pray" mentality, but higher DoS (gained from higher BS scores) still result in more hits. If GMs are using Horde Rules from Deathwatch this Full Auto fire receives a very generous bonus to hit based on the Horde Magnitude, and even if GMs are instead using the Advanced Horde Rules from Tome of Blood (Black Crusade) the shooter still receives (at most) +10 to BS Tests.

These House Rules do the same as yours- encourage higher BS scores. Also, they are not intended to interact with or be cumulative with the rules for Suppressing Fire/Overwatch (two completely different balls of wax).

I'd be inclined to further modify BS Tests for Full Auto in the event a firefight suddenly errupted within a relatively small and enclosed environment that was free of obstruction (say +10 if within a 15'x15' bedroom, +20 within an 3'-4'-wide hallway or average bathroom, and +30 if shooting at fish in a barrel). 

Speaking personally, I think the Full Auto House Rules (above) are acceptable. I don't think Full Auto was ever really meant to be game-breaking, it just worked out that way and the developers reacted by swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction…then a little back, again.

I feel Full Auto should be reserved for larger individual targets, massed targets (such as Hordes), and Suppressing Fire/Overwatch. Popping off a mess of shots on a guy little better than yourself is wasteful overkill and indicative of a panicky soldier.     

 

this sounds excellent, and is closer to what I wanted to do than what I wrote. If I ever get my **** group back together, we'll playtest these.

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Alekzanter said:

How about this:

Single Shot (Half Action)- +10 to BS Tests, may benefit from Aim Actions (Half and Full), may benefit from any and all targeting/sighting devices, any Success equals one (1) hit (The benefit of +10 for the Single Shot representing not hurrying the shot; with a Single Shot, a Half Action Aim, a Red-Dot sight, and Short Range there is then a +40 to BS Tests, which I feel is acceptable for the return of only one shot…that still might miss, or do crap Damage).

Semi-Auto (Half Action)- +/-0 to BS Tests, may not benefit from Aim Actions, may benefit from targeting/sighting* devices up to the weapon's maximum Short Range (so up to 50m with an M36 Lasgun…not shabby), one (1) hit per 2 DoS up to the weapon's Semi-Auto RoF (*This allows for the Red-dot sight to remain somewhat effective; if GMs are running extensive crossover games this rule does not affect the operational value of Spore Targeters; Without the benefit of +10 for the Single Shot or Half Action Aim there is still a +20 to BS Tests at Short Range, which I feel is still a considerable advantage considering the myriad other factors such as Personal and Cover AP, Fatigue, etc). Chances are still good for scoring more than one hit, and (IMO) the more Damage dice rolled the better.

Full Auto (Full Action)- -10 to BS Tests, may not benefit from Aim Actions, may not benefit from targeting/sighting devices (aside from Spore Targeters and Motion Predictors), Standard Success (aka 1 DoS) is one (1) hit, changing to two (2) hits per 2 DoS up to the weapon's Full Auto RoF(Consider that a person firing on Full Auto is likely either A- attempting to hit multiple targets in a hurry, without regard to accuracy, or B- attempting to suppress; at Short Range there is +/-0 to BS Tests, and the number of hits steps up a bit more gradually than the Full Auto RAW: 1 With 1 DoS on Full Auto you receive one (1) hit, 2-3 DoS results in two (2) hits, 4-5 DoS results in four (4) hits, and so on. By "skipping" a DoS before awarding the weapon's full RoF it protrays the inaccuracy of the "spray and pray" mentality, but higher DoS (gained from higher BS scores) still result in more hits. If GMs are using Horde Rules from Deathwatch this Full Auto fire receives a very generous bonus to hit based on the Horde Magnitude, and even if GMs are instead using the Advanced Horde Rules from Tome of Blood (Black Crusade) the shooter still receives (at most) +10 to BS Tests.

These House Rules do the same as yours- encourage higher BS scores. Also, they are not intended to interact with or be cumulative with the rules for Suppressing Fire/Overwatch (two completely different balls of wax).

I'd be inclined to further modify BS Tests for Full Auto in the event a firefight suddenly errupted within a relatively small and enclosed environment that was free of obstruction (say +10 if within a 15'x15' bedroom, +20 within an 3'-4'-wide hallway or average bathroom, and +30 if shooting at fish in a barrel). 

Speaking personally, I think the Full Auto House Rules (above) are acceptable. I don't think Full Auto was ever really meant to be game-breaking, it just worked out that way and the developers reacted by swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction…then a little back, again.

I feel Full Auto should be reserved for larger individual targets, massed targets (such as Hordes), and Suppressing Fire/Overwatch. Popping off a mess of shots on a guy little better than yourself is wasteful overkill and indicative of a panicky soldier.     

 

I love these rules, but i have two comments;

1) full auto rapidly depletes your ammo; if i were to full auto in my groups games we would run out of ammo halfway through the mission. bear in mind  a soldier carrying an autogun with 2 clips can only full auto 6 times before he is out of ammo, 12 times if he carries two more, hardly enough to last him the mission.

2) why do you promote higher BS? that just means that players have less exp to put into other things, resulting in characters with less, well, character. they put in all the bonus' not as a homage to the real world but to allow guardsmen to actually hit something without having to have all the equipment and time under the sun. encouraging higher BS results in all characters upping their BS (so no relative benefit) and means that combat characters who find it hard to boost BS get left behind.

3) also compared to othe games there aren't that many autfire guns except the autogun/pistol; they wouldnt be abused as much because only one or two members of the squad is going to have one

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RonFarster said:

I love these rules, but i have two comments;

1) full auto rapidly depletes your ammo; if i were to full auto in my groups games we would run out of ammo halfway through the mission. bear in mind  a soldier carrying an autogun with 2 clips can only full auto 6 times before he is out of ammo, 12 times if he carries two more, hardly enough to last him the mission.

2) why do you promote higher BS? that just means that players have less exp to put into other things, resulting in characters with less, well, character. they put in all the bonus' not as a homage to the real world but to allow guardsmen to actually hit something without having to have all the equipment and time under the sun. encouraging higher BS results in all characters upping their BS (so no relative benefit) and means that combat characters who find it hard to boost BS get left behind.

3) also compared to othe games there aren't that many autfire guns except the autogun/pistol; they wouldnt be abused as much because only one or two members of the squad is going to have one

1- That Full Auto rapidly depletes an ammo supply is a given consequence of using a weapon on that setting. In early iterations of FFG 40K RPG, firing a weapon on Full Auto provided a +20 bonus to BS Tests, and it simply resulted in PCs (Players) making every attempt to get their hands on weapons with Full Auto capability- this became an issue with regards to scaling combat encounters, and escalated the power level of games faster than many GMs were comfortable with. PCs were less likely to worry about accelerated ammo depletion, as firing on Full Auto meant they were literally getting the best bang for their buck- each hit can be allocated to a target within 2m of the previous target, so PC could string their Full Auto fire across an area that was potentially larger than that covered by Suppressing Fire, and it then made no sense to use Suppressing Fire to Pin an oppopnent that outnumbered PC when you could kill them far more easily (due to the +20 to BS Tests).

As I indicated previously, Full Auto shouldn't be the default fire mode when using a weapon with Full Auto capability., and the very reason for this is because of accelerated ammo depletion. Every PC was soon carryng SP weapons with Full Auto capability, even though Lasguns are Reliable, do just as much Damage (on a normal setting), and have a more efficient ammo expenditure. PCs were looting bodies and selling junk in the underhive and to back-alley weapon mongers just to pay for SP ammo, and that detracted from the immersion of investigation scenarios.
Rather, Full Auto is beeter reserved for very desperate situations (very close, very confined, badly outnumbered), against a high number of exposed opponents (such as Hordes), and for Suppressing Fire.

2- When Plushy and I (or anyone else) refer to promoting higher BS (or other) scores we are not intending or even implying that this be an exclusive promotion. Many times, not every PC can get his/her hands on equipment that makes their tasks easier (like targeting devices), and boosting BS scores +5, +10 at the most gives the PC that little extra edge when is unavailable, fails, or is lost/destroyed. The concept is no different than an Engine-seer boosting his/her Intelligence score because Multi-tools are not always available. Ideally, every PC should possess a well-rounded set of Skills and Talents, but we all know there are Players who like to focus on one thing, one aspect of their participation in scenarios, and this is the reason that the Semi-Auto and Full Auto weapons need a balanced revision. Narrow-minded Character developement highlights weaknesses in game mechanics which "break" game balance. 

This is not to say we intend to limit any PC abilities. Many House Rules are inspired by attempts to bring balance to game play, specifically to game mechanics.

3- This assertion is incorrect. The types of weapons capable of firing on Full Auto are relatively few in number, but they are easily accesible. PCs who want one will get one through whatever means they may. In fact, Players can create regiments that allow their PCs to begin with autoguns.

 

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I like the ideas here, very similar to mine: 

 

Here is a proposal: 

 

Singe shot: Stays the same. (+10)

Semi-Auto Mode: +0 BS, one hit for every  DoS

Full-Auto Mode: +10 BS, one extra hit for every TWO DoS. 

 

This makes FA just as good as single shot for hitting with that first round (before the recoil kicks in), but after that getting additional shots on the target is harder than with the more controllable SA mode. Full auto mode combined with Aim action makes it as good as it was in DH pre-errata, but unless you have other bonuses it's unlikely to hit with more than 2-3 shots and most of the ammo is wasted. 

 

Comrade stabilized heavy weapons will be terrifying though, as they should be. SA could be very deadly, but the low RoF (2-3) should keep it in check. 

 

How does that sound?

 

As for removing the SS bonus, I think realism or not that shafts the SS gun wielders - shotguns, hand cannons etc. I don't mind the extra bonus as a representation of taking the time to aim properly and thus shooting only once. It's also a Hollywood staple I don't mind at all. 

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I like the ideas here, very similar to mine: 

 

Here is a proposal: 

 

Singe shot: Stays the same. (+10)

Semi-Auto Mode: +0 BS, one hit for every  DoS

Full-Auto Mode: +10 BS, one extra hit for every TWO DoS. 

 

This makes FA just as good as single shot for hitting with that first round (before the recoil kicks in), but after that getting additional shots on the target is harder than with the more controllable SA mode. Full auto mode combined with Aim action makes it as good as it was in DH pre-errata, but unless you have other bonuses it's unlikely to hit with more than 2-3 shots and most of the ammo is wasted. 

 

Comrade stabilized heavy weapons will be terrifying though, as they should be. SA could be very deadly, but the low RoF (2-3) should keep it in check. 

 

How does that sound?

 

As for removing the SS bonus, I think realism or not that shafts the SS gun wielders - shotguns, hand cannons etc. I don't mind the extra bonus as a representation of taking the time to aim properly and thus shooting only once. It's also a Hollywood staple I don't mind at all. 

I like this.  I find it a fine line between making the sniper deadly as well as the Heavy.  I find at this juncture that my players are more concerned with landing at least one round and will choose whatever option gives them the highest BS advantage.  If you skew this toward single-shots, then they never use Semi or Full Auto. 

 

What you don't want in this game, but is hard to avoid is the min/max mentality.  If you skew it either way, mathematically, the players will figure this out quickly and you'll find them all wanting to be either Snipers or Heavies.  Single and Full Auto have to be equally appealing depending on character class, with Semi being a viable in-the-middle alternative with no real downsides.

 

My thinking is that if you're spraying at a single target with the intention of killing them, not surpressing them, then you have more chance at least one bullet will hit.  Like dodging rain.  I do it like this:

 

Single shot: +0 BS, but you can Aim multiple times

Semi-Auto Mode: +0 BS, one hit for every  DoS, but you can only aim once.

Full-Auto Mode: +10 BS, one extra hit for every TWO DoS, but you can only aim once.

 

If you don't "aim", then essentially you're firing from the hip, so why would you get a bonus to-hit with half-action Single Shot?  Along those lines, "aiming" with a Semi or FA burst and only allowing the benefit of one "aim" simulates only the first shot being accurate.

 

See, we use an Action Points system.  Your AP = Willpower and Agility modifiers divided by 2.  For example you have a 20 Will and a 40 Agi, you'd have 2+4/2 = 3 Action Points.  Each half action in general equals 1 Action Point and each full action is 2 Action Points.  "Aiming" in our game is 1 Action Point.

 

You see, how much you can accomplish in a turn isn't just how fast you are (Agi) but also a measure of how cool you are under fire (Will).  This way even less-physical characters can do about the same amount as the super-quick Ratlings.

 

It works out really well and in general most characters can do pretty much the same amount of stuff in a turn as they would in the stock rules, but as the character levels up it develops their "fog of war" experience letting them do just a little bit more in a turn which also benefits the GM as I can throw harder stuff at them.

 

As far as ammo expenditure goes, it's up to the player to ration their ammo.  Otherwise why even bother having them keep track of it?  You can always be a nice GM and have them find an ammo dump or extra ammo on a corpse or something.

Edited by Maxim C. Gatling

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