Can you much and more with only 2 cards left in either yours or opponents deck?

[sWhiteboy 18]

Bomb.  I'm certain that you are wrong in that last post.

In the thread about Marched to the Wall, KTOM says that the word "must" does not change the meaning of a card in any way.  Instead, "if able" has to be added to the end of the "choose" statement in order to allow for someone (or both players) to not complete the effect.

 

So, if both players are not able to reveal at least one card, then Much and More cannot be played.

[Bomb 66]

sWhiteboy said:

Bomb.  I'm certain that you are wrong in that last post.

In the thread about Marched to the Wall, KTOM says that the word "must" does not change the meaning of a card in any way.  Instead, "if able" has to be added to the end of the "choose" statement in order to allow for someone (or both players) to not complete the effect.

 

So, if both players are not able to reveal at least one card, then Much and More cannot be played.

OK.  I'll stand by my original post then.  However, those other threads are still good references to use in relationship to this topic as it has some good posts about resolving effects as much as possible.

[mdc273 29]

sWhiteboy said:

Bomb.  I'm certain that you are wrong in that last post.

In the thread about Marched to the Wall, KTOM says that the word "must" does not change the meaning of a card in any way.  Instead, "if able" has to be added to the end of the "choose" statement in order to allow for someone (or both players) to not complete the effect.

 

So, if both players are not able to reveal at least one card, then Much and More cannot be played.

I sort of agree with this?

So there's a key difference in the cards' text. Both Marched to the Wall and Umber Berserkers have multiple targets. Really, they both generate what appears to be two effects by Damons choice of explanation. I think the precedent he established is "Each player…" creates a separate, unique effect on each player. This text is absent from Much and More and, as such, means that a single player must successfully resolve the whole thing. The single player must successfully resolve the reveal. Then they must successfully resolve the dual choose. Then they shuffle the decks.

I think that's the difference. In Much and More, "each player" is a descriptor for whose decks. In Marched and Berserkers, "each player" is the subject of a single, unique effect. So the precedent set on those cards shouldn't apply to Much and More's second effect of choosing and adding cards to hand as much as possible. It should remain bindary. If it said "each player chooses", then it would be the "as much as possible" similar to Marched and Berserkers.

[sWhiteboy 18]

You need to reread the Marched thread. You're wrong on why Marched is a complete as much as possible effect.

[Khudzlin 734]

Much and more can be played regardless, for the same reason you can play Westeros Bleeds even if there are no characters in play or you can play Distinct Mastery targetting an already standing character (provided the character has a non-shadow crest): failure to apply effects does not prevent initiation, only failure to target, meet play restrictions or pay costs does.

[Bomb 66]

Khudzlin said:

Much and more can be played regardless, for the same reason you can play Westeros Bleeds even if there are no characters in play or you can play Distinct Mastery targetting an already standing character (provided the character has a non-shadow crest): failure to apply effects does not prevent initiation, only failure to target, meet play restrictions or pay costs does.

That was sort of what I got out of those other threads.  I should not have added any mention of "must" or "must choose" in my next post.  Upon initiating an effect, you resolve as much of it as possible. 

Much and more has no play restriction or target necessary in order to initiate it's effect.  There are targets chosen during the effect resolution, but they are not present until after you've started resolving Much and More. 

Think of it this way.  If Much and More is canceled, it is done before the revelation of the top 4 cards of each deck.  Once you go beyond the Cancel step, Much and More is now resolving.  Per the other threads, you resolve an effect that has already been initiated as much as possible. 

So you reveal top 4(or less if deck is less than 4 cards) of each players deck.
Choose 1 revealed card by each player(choose as much as possible).
Put each chosen card into their owner's hand.
Shuffle any revealed cards into owner's decks.

The whole "once intitiated, do as much as possible" is all I've got for this argument.  Much and More has no play restrictions since it is "Any Phase" and has no targets necessary to initiate.

[mdc273 29]

sWhiteboy said:

You need to reread the Marched thread. You're wrong on why Marched is a complete as much as possible effect.

I'm not sure why you say I'm wrong. Damon pretty much says they're two separate effects. If they aren't, they can't initiate. It isn't an instance of successful initiation, do as much as possible. It's either two separate effects, one of which successfully initiates and the other doesn't, or one effect that doesn't successfully initiate due to the inability to choose characters. Choosing is not an effect. It is the initiation of an effect.

@Bomb - New avatar… confused… arrrrrrggggggghhhhhh

[-Istaril 157]

I'm a little confused here.

While we can all agree that if an effect said "Draw 3 cards", you'd have to perform as much of it as possible (drawing up to your cap), because draw happens one at a time. We have a specific ruling for this.

The arguments here seem to hinge around "Revealing 1-3 cards" is "Doing as much as possible" towards "Revealing 4 cards", which I can't find any solid reasoning to justify.

[Sttyca 20]

Damon Stone <dstone@fantasyflightgames.com>	May 7
to me

Yes.

On May 3, 2013, at 4:38 AM, wrote:

> Message from:
>
>
>
> E-mail:
>
>
>
> Rule Question:
> Can you use Much and More when one or more player(s) has less than 4 cards in his/her deck and just reveal what's left, add one to their hand and "shuffle" the rest together?

 

[-Istaril 157]

That's good to know, and seems to set a precedent that more actions happen one at a time, and be treated like draw (eg, Luwin could work on a 3 card deck, Bronze Link can discard 8 cards from a 5 card deck).

[mdc273 29]

-Istaril said:

That's good to know, and seems to set a precedent that more actions happen one at a time, and be treated like draw (eg, Luwin could work on a 3 card deck, Bronze Link can discard 8 cards from a 5 card deck).

Hmmm… Never thought to apply it to all of those, but yes. That makes sense. I was thinking to just apply it to reveal for now, but it's not that much of a stretch to make it work for discard as well. Good thing to keep in mind.