Can you much and more with only 2 cards left in either yours or opponents deck?

[dcdennis 39]

Can you much and more with only 2 cards left in either yours or opponents deck?

[Khudzlin 734]

There's no reason you can't. You follow the instructions to the best of your ability. Since there's no "then", you don't even care whether you revealed 4 cards for each player (one player might even have an empty deck - that player won't get a card).

[Sttyca 20]

dcdennis said:

 

Can you much and more with only 2 cards left in either yours or opponents deck?

 

 

dcdennis said:

 

Can you much and more with only 2 cards left in either yours or opponents deck?

 

 

Not sure, but I'm guessing no, since it specifically tells you to reveal the top 4 cards from both decks. It's the same reason you can't use Naval Escort's ability to kneel 4 warships to choose 4 characters to get +4 STR if there's only 3 characters on the board.

 

Side note, a funny thing about Naval Escort is that it doesn't need to kneel to trigger its own ability, so you could kneel 8 warships, one-at-a-time, to give a single character +8 STR.'

 

Edit/Hint: There's no "then" in Naval Escort either.

[Khudzlin 734]

Naval Escort tells you to choose X characters. That's the difference with Much and More (which doesn't choose the cards to reveal - only the cards to give players).

[mdc273 29]

Khudzlin said:

There's no reason you can't. You follow the instructions to the best of your ability. Since there's no "then", you don't even care whether you revealed 4 cards for each player (one player might even have an empty deck - that player won't get a card).

Can you find that "to the best of your ability" passage? As far as I'm aware it only applies to discard and draw effects. I just want to cofirm it should be applied more globally.

[Khudzlin 734]

(4.9) The word "then"
If a card has multiple effects, all effects on the card are resolved, if possible, independently of whether any other effects of the card are successful, with the following important exception: If a card uses the word "then," then the preceding effect must have been resolved successfully for the subsequent dependent effect to be resolved.

[mdc273 29]

Khudzlin said:

(4.9) The word "then"
If a card has multiple effects, all effects on the card are resolved, if possible, independently of whether any other effects of the card are successful, with the following important exception: If a card uses the word "then," then the preceding effect must have been resolved successfully for the subsequent dependent effect to be resolved.

Hmmm… Okay… I need to break this down a bit as I think there are three distinct portions of Much and More, two of which don't neatly fall under 4.9.

Reveal the top 4 cards of each player's deck.

1) Player A can not satisfy the effect. He will not resolve it OR Player A can not satisfy the effect, he reveals as much as possible.

2) Player B can satisfy the effect.

In this scenario, does player A reveal any cards? I would argue no. Discarding and drawing have been revealed to be separate and distinct (i. e. each card drawn or discarded is done so individually), but reveal has not been shown to act like this has it?

Choose 1 revealed card owned by each player, and add it to its owner's hand.

Can this effect succesfully initiate without both players revealing cards? How can you satisfy the initiaton of choosing 1 revealed card owned by each player?

Shuffle all other cards back into their owners' decks.

This will always resolve.

[Khudzlin 734]

The FAQ explains only how events and character abilities work. It hasn't stopped people from generalizing those rules to all triggered effects.

[mdc273 29]

Khudzlin said:

The FAQ explains only how events and character abilities work. It hasn't stopped people from generalizing those rules to all triggered effects.

So you're going with my "Much and More will just shuffle the deck if a player can't reveal 4 cards" interpretation?

[Khudzlin 734]

No, I'm generalizing the rule about "do as much as you can" from discarded/drawn cards to revealed cards. Much and More has 3 separate effects:

1. Reveal the top 4 cards from each player's deck
2. Choose 1 revealed card from each player and put it into that player's hand
3. Shuffle all other revealed cards into their owners' decks

Should one player's deck contain fewer than 4 cards, it will reveal all remaining cards in that deck, one of them will go into the player's hand and the others (if any) will be shuffled together. It won't impact what happens with the other players' decks, of course.

[Sttyca 20]

Khudzlin said:

No, I'm generalizing the rule about "do as much as you can" from discarded/drawn cards to revealed cards. Much and More has 3 separate effects:

1. Reveal the top 4 cards from each player's deck
2. Choose 1 revealed card from each player and put it into that player's hand
3. Shuffle all other revealed cards into their owners' decks

Should one player's deck contain fewer than 4 cards, it will reveal all remaining cards in that deck, one of them will go into the player's hand and the others (if any) will be shuffled together. It won't impact what happens with the other players' decks, of course.

I still think it's no, but I'm not sure, and I can't seem to get a difinitive answer anywhere else I've tried, so I sent an email to FFG and will post when I get the answer.

[sWhiteboy 18]

The way it reads to me is, as long as both players have at least 1 card in their deck, then the event can be played.  If one player has 0 cards in their deck, then you cannot choose a card from that player's Revealed cards, which makes Much and More unable to complete the effect.

[mdc273 29]

sWhiteboy said:

The way it reads to me is, as long as both players have at least 1 card in their deck, then the event can be played.  If one player has 0 cards in their deck, then you cannot choose a card from that player's Revealed cards, which makes Much and More unable to complete the effect.

I think this matches to Khudzlin's interpretation if you assume that the way you do as much as possible for draw applies to reveal.

[sWhiteboy 18]

I actually changed my mind about this.  I don't think you can play the card unless both players have at least 4 cards in their deck.

There is a standing ruling that says if someone cannot fully complete a play requirement of a card, then the card cannot be played.  Much and More's play requirement is that the top 4 cards of each players deck be revealed.

The exceptions to this rule are passive effects, where everyone completes as much of the card as possible (as long as the effect was legally initiated), and "then" effects (where the play requirement is in the first part of the effect).

 

Here's a thread where KTOM explains at least part of this: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=18&efcid=4&efidt=778104&efpag=0

[Khudzlin 734]

The FAQ on timing structure (specifically on the initiation of an effect):

For the initiation stage of any player action, a player must go through the following substeps, in order. The first step is always revealing the card or declaring the intent to use an ability. Then:
a) Determine the cost (to either marshal the card or pay for the card's effect) or costs (if multiple costs are necessary for the intended action).
b) Check play restrictions, including verification of applicable targets.
c) Apply any penalties to the cost(s). (Any effects that modify a penalty are applied to that penalty before it becomes a part of the cost.)
d) Apply any other active modifiers (including reducers) to the cost(s).
e) Pay the cost(s).
f) Marshal the card, or trigger the effect. Choose targets (if applicable) and proceed to step two.

Let's apply this to Much and More:

Any Phase: Reveal the top 4 cards of each player's deck. Choose 1 revealed card owned by each player, and add it to its owner's hand. Shuffle all other cards back into their owners' decks.

a) There is no cost.
b) There is no play restriction, nor any targets.
c, d and e) There is no cost.
f) There is no target.

Initiation is complete.

[sWhiteboy 18]

Except there is a play restriction:

"Reveal the top 4 cards of each player's deck."

This tells us that in order to play the card, you must be able to reveal the top 4 cards of all player's decks.

 

If Much and more instead said:

"Reveal the top 4 cards of each player's deck, if able."

Then it would not be necessary for each player to have at least 4 cards in their deck.

[mdc273 29]

sWhiteboy said:

Except there is a play restriction:

"Reveal the top 4 cards of each player's deck."

This tells us that in order to play the card, you must be able to reveal the top 4 cards of all player's decks.

 

If Much and more instead said:

"Reveal the top 4 cards of each player's deck, if able."

Then it would not be necessary for each player to have at least 4 cards in their deck.

Actually that isn't a play restriction, though it might seem like one. It's an effect. The second effect on Much and More is dependent on its resolution, which is why I originally said I think a Much and More on a 0 - 3 card deck would simply shuffle both players' decks, so I still agree. I just want to clarify that Khudzlin's assessment is accurate in that there really is no play restriction for Much and More. In my interpretation, if you play it and there aren't enough cards nothing happens and both decks get shuffled.

Did anyone send this to Damon?

[sWhiteboy 18]

Explain how "reveal four cards" is not a play restriction but "discard down to four" is a play restriciton?  They are both an effect of the card, and they both look for a specific number.

Again, the cards I'm referencing are Much and More and For R'hllor, respectively.

[sWhiteboy 18]

On a side note, I really have no idea with this specific type of ruling.  The FAQ says you can play a card that says "kneel 3 characters" even if there were only 2 characters."  This is just like the ruling where you can use an ability that says "draw 2 cards" even though you only have 1 card left till draw cap (of course, you would end up drawing only 1 card from the ability).

 

So, what is it that makes For R'hllor different?

[Khudzlin 734]

For R'hllor says "Response: After an opponent draws 1 or more cards through a card effect,kneel 3 influence or kneel 1 character to have each player choose and discard cards from his or her hand until only 4 cards remain in each player's hand."

The difference between For R'hllor and Much and More is the "choose" that introduces targets in For R'hllor's case.

[Bomb 66]

I believe that you reveal as many cards(up to 4) as possible from the top of each players deck.  As long as you can still choose one of the revealed cards for each player, you can fulfill Much and More.  If one player has no revealed cards(because his deck is empty), then there nothing to choose 1 from and you can not resolve the "Choose 1 revealed card owned by each player" portion of Much and More.

 

"Reveal the top 4 cards of each players deck."  - This has no cost and is independent of the rest of the effect of Much and More.
"Choose 1 revealed card owned by each player" - This is dependent on having cards revealed by the previous effect.  If one player has no revealed cards you cannot resolve this effect.
"… and add it to it's owners hand." - This is dependent on being able to choose 1 revealed card.  Generally the same dependency on 1 revealed card existing.
"Shuffle all other revealed cards back into their owners decks."  - This needs to happen regardless as long as any cards are revealed from Much and More.

So, I don't think Much and More is stopped from being used unless a player does not have any more cards in their deck.  At that point you will be missing the required target of "1 revealed card owned by each player".

[dcdennis 39]

Bomb said:

 

I believe that you reveal as many cards(up to 4) as possible from the top of each players deck.  As long as you can still choose one of the revealed cards for each player, you can fulfill Much and More.  If one player has no revealed cards(because his deck is empty), then there nothing to choose 1 from and you can not resolve the "Choose 1 revealed card owned by each player" portion of Much and More.

 

"Reveal the top 4 cards of each players deck."  - This has no cost and is independent of the rest of the effect of Much and More.
"Choose 1 revealed card owned by each player" - This is dependent on having cards revealed by the previous effect.  If one player has no revealed cards you cannot resolve this effect.
"… and add it to it's owners hand." - This is dependent on being able to choose 1 revealed card.  Generally the same dependency on 1 revealed card existing.
"Shuffle all other revealed cards back into their owners decks."  - This needs to happen regardless as long as any cards are revealed from Much and More.

So, I don't think Much and More is stopped from being used unless a player does not have any more cards in their deck.  At that point you will be missing the required target of "1 revealed card owned by each player".

 

 

 

/thread

 

i think we're done here.

[sWhiteboy 18]

HAHA!  I was right the first time!

[mdc273 29]

Bomb said:

I believe that you reveal as many cards(up to 4) as possible from the top of each players deck.  As long as you can still choose one of the revealed cards for each player, you can fulfill Much and More.  If one player has no revealed cards(because his deck is empty), then there nothing to choose 1 from and you can not resolve the "Choose 1 revealed card owned by each player" portion of Much and More.

 

"Reveal the top 4 cards of each players deck."  - This has no cost and is independent of the rest of the effect of Much and More.
"Choose 1 revealed card owned by each player" - This is dependent on having cards revealed by the previous effect.  If one player has no revealed cards you cannot resolve this effect.
"… and add it to it's owners hand." - This is dependent on being able to choose 1 revealed card.  Generally the same dependency on 1 revealed card existing.
"Shuffle all other revealed cards back into their owners decks."  - This needs to happen regardless as long as any cards are revealed from Much and More.

So, I don't think Much and More is stopped from being used unless a player does not have any more cards in their deck.  At that point you will be missing the required target of "1 revealed card owned by each player".

Okay, so we're going with each card is revealed individually so reveal 4 cards reveals them one at a time and fails to reveal once they're all gone (same as draw/discard)? Are there any cards this could change current interpretations on? I can't think of any at the moment.

[Bomb 66]

I decided to delve into some other cards that have had similar questions.  Please see the following threads for your own reference.

 

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=18&efcid=4&efidt=778104&efpag=0

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=18&efcid=4&efidt=722739&efpag=1

 

Based on their content, Damon ruling, and ktom comments, I'm thinking that you resolve Much and More to the best of your ability.  This means that even if there is no revealed card by any player, you still choose and put a revealed card in a players hand if possible.  That's just what I'm getting out of the above threads.  Without using the word "must" and thus having "must choose ", I don't think it matters if one player has an empty deck and no revealed cards by Much and More.  Technically Much and More can be initiated per the FAQ because there is no play restriction and there are no targets needed in order to initiate it.  Per the above threads, you do as much as possible when an effect initiates.

Thoughts?