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Daegul

49 pages later

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Because the search function doesn't…

 

Some questions not covered or seen in the FAQ (or above-noted 49 pages of forum):

 

Shared Pain & Magic Staff - If the staff does not do any damage (but does not miss), yet gets to use its surge ability to damage a nearby monster, does Shared Pain's effect happen; if so, to which monster group? This question applies to Blast victims as well…

 

Ancestor Spirits - Does this ability affect each figure affected by the triggering ability (Shared Pain for monsters, Vigor or Drain Spirit for heroes), or just 1? Also, for heroes, the card states that affected heroes gain 1 each health/fatigue; which of the following is correct for a hero that has been healed 3 health by Healing Rain? 1) The hero is healed 3 health and 3 fatigue. 2) The hero is healed 5 health and 1 fatigue.

 

 

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Daegul said:

Shared Pain & Magic Staff - If the staff does not do any damage (but does not miss), yet gets to use its surge ability to damage a nearby monster, does Shared Pain's effect happen; if so, to which monster group? This question applies to Blast victims as well…

Here's the text on Shared Pain, for reference:

"Action: Perform an attack.  If you deal at least 1 [Heart] (after rolling defense dice), each other figure in the target's monster group suffer's 1 [Heart]."

The operative word in this sentence is "target."  The target monster is the monster which occupies the target space of the attack.  Any attack has only one target space, additional affected figures due to AoE are not "targets."  Likewise, the secondary damage inflicted by magic staff does not make that monster a "target" either.

Therefore, the answer is that you must deal at least one [Heart] to the original target monster for this effect to kick in.  Only other monsters from the target's monster group will be affected.

Daegul said:

Ancestor Spirits - Does this ability affect each figure affected by the triggering ability (Shared Pain for monsters, Vigor or Drain Spirit for heroes), or just 1? Also, for heroes, the card states that affected heroes gain 1 each health/fatigue; which of the following is correct for a hero that has been healed 3 health by Healing Rain? 1) The hero is healed 3 health and 3 fatigue. 2) The hero is healed 5 health and 1 fatigue.

Ancestor Spirits does not use the word "target" therefore it can be applieed to any monster or hero who was affected by the other ability.  However, Ancestor spirits only works on "a monster" or "a hero."  Even if multiple figures are affected by the other ability, you can only choose one to be affected by Ancestor Spirits.

A hero healed for 3 health by Healing Rain would gain a total of 4 health and 1 fatigue with Ancestor Spirits thrown in.

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Hmmm.  Seems from a letter of the law viewpoint, the requirement is met simply by doing damage (no target is specified for to whom damage need be applied); but the spirit of the ability is certainly to damage the target of the attack.

 

Your interpretation of Ancestor Spirits matches the precise wording, but 1 heart + 1 fatigue or 1 poison victim for 3 XP and 1 fatigue per use seems out of balance.  One might argue that you're paying for flexibility, but that's still quite steep.  Not actually argueing on this one, just complaining. ;)

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What about the Bard skill: Concentration (Shadow of Nerekhall):

"Exaust this card when a hero within 3 spaces of you recovers 1 or more hearth. That hero recovers 2 additional hearth."

Does it follow the same rules then Ancestor's Spirit ? Do all the heroes recover 2 hearth if they did recover hearths from the same skill?

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What about the Bard skill: Concentration (Shadow of Nerekhall):

"Exaust this card when a hero within 3 spaces of you recovers 1 or more hearth. That hero recovers 2 additional hearth."

Does it follow the same rules then Ancestor's Spirit ? Do all the heroes recover 2 hearth if they did recover hearths from the same skill?

No, that skill targets "a hero." One hero. "That hero" gains an additional 2 health.

If the healing effect in question gave health to multiple heroes, this skill would only affect one of them.

If there are multiple heroes affected that are within 3 of the bard, the bard chooses which hero gets +2 health.

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But both cards uses the same words: "when a hero" and "that hero". I don't see why it has different targets

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For me Its the triggering condition that invalidates the use of it on multiple heroes.

3 heroes within 3 of the bard regain health from the same source, so you exhaust the card and pick 'a' (singular) hero, and that chosen hero gains  + 2 hearts.

Go to repeat the process for the 2nd hero (who still meets the condition) and the card is already exhausted.
 

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Honestly I think that both abilities only target a single hero but it's not really super clear...  I wouldn't gauge the power of an ability by its XP cost though since some of the level threes are downright bad, especially on early characters.

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Yeah, Steve-o - how could you POSSIBLY have missed the stealth errata on Ancestor Spirits? After all, it's been in all the FAQs and they've issued an updated card... oh wait, no. It's on an obscure thread on the BGG site.

 

But yes, according to the errata, you use Ancestor Spirits in response to an event, and it modifies everything which had been impacted by the event - IE, it should read:

 

"Use this card when a monster suffers at least 1 heart from one of your abilities or a hero recovers 1 heart or 1 stamina from one of your abilities. All monsters which suffered 1 heart from that ability are poisoned. All heroes which recovered hearts or stamina recover 1 heart and 1 stamina.

 

Man, these guys are so good at managing a game. And Griton - no, Concentration wouldn't do the same thing, because this isn't a rule, it's errata. Because if it's a rule - that "A hero" means "any number of heroes" then the game breaks in half, as does grammar, logic, and my brain.

Lunatic Zouzouna likes this

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Personally I feel if FFG isn't confident enough in an errata to put it up on their own site (and use the kludgey mess that is boardgamesgeek) I feel it can be safely ignored.

Edited by Radish

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Yeah, Steve-o - how could you POSSIBLY have missed the stealth errata on Ancestor Spirits? After all, it's been in all the FAQs and they've issued an updated card... oh wait, no. It's on an obscure thread on the BGG site.

Indeed.

My post concerning Ancestor Spirits was also made close to a year ago. But please, let's not let the fact that Marc necroposted a thread from ages ago stop people from pointing out how FFG has since issued new clarifications that might contradict me.

 

FWIW, even if FFG has since ruled that AS can affect multiple monsters/heroes, I personally disagree with that ruling.  The language on that card (and on this Bard skill) seem fairly clear to me that it only affects one figure.  I guess I'll be calling that a house rule from now on.

 

But both cards uses the same words: "when a hero" and "that hero". I don't see why it has different targets

Perhaps one of us has misunderstood something. Both Ancestor Spirits and Concentration affect a single figure (IMHO.) Healing Rain is the skill from my age-old discussion that affects multiple heroes. The question back then was about how Healing Rain and Ancestor Spirits interact. I said HR would do its thing for everyone and AS would add on to one hero, which is exactly what I was just saying today about Concentration adding on to a multi-heal ability (like HR, for example.)

Also note, as Griton points out, that FFG has apparently since issued a clarification about Ancestor Spirits in the unofficial FAQ which I was previously unaware of. If you choose to go with that ruling, then I would agree that Concentration should work the same way, for consistency if nothing else.

Edited by Steve-O

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Yeah, Steve-o - how could you POSSIBLY have missed the stealth errata on Ancestor Spirits? After all, it's been in all the FAQs and they've issued an updated card... oh wait, no. It's on an obscure thread on the BGG site.

Indeed.

My post concerning Ancestor Spirits was also made close to a year ago. But please, let's not let the fact that Marc necroposted a thread from ages ago stop people from pointing out how FFG has since issued new clarifications that might contradict me.

 

 

Didn't notice it was a year old. In any case:

 

1. I wasn't ragging on you, at all - I guess my tone didn't come through. I was sarcastically attempting to indicate that it is extremely easy for even people invested in this game to not notice the change.

 

2. FFG needs to learn the difference between a clarification and errata. Clarification is when you're making something clear. They're not "clearing up" Splig's placement in the Finale to Shadow Rune, for instance - they're changing it. Nothing wrong with changing/rebalancing stuff, but calling it a clarificaiton is just dumb.

 

The same is true here. There is NOTHING unclear about Ancestor Spirits. Not only that, but if this is a "clarification," then it is a ruling which can in theory be applied to other cards. And if you apply it to other cards, like I said above, the game breaks in half - there's just too much stuff that this can be applied to. Treat it as errata - errata for a card which is really, really weak, to bring it slightly more in line with other 3-point abilties.

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To be fair to Steve-O, I don't think there was an errata/faq out yet when he made those posts over a year ago.  ;)

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"Use this card when a monster suffers at least 1 heart from one of your abilities or a hero recovers 1 heart or 1 stamina from one of your abilities. All monsters which suffered 1 heart from that ability are poisoned. All heroes which recovered hearts or stamina recover 1 heart and 1 stamina.

Not quite. FFG has clarified that you get to use the card for EITHER the monsters OR the heroes, but not both. There are two separate sections of the card that can be used; using one exhausts the card and makes it unavailable for using the other.

 

All FFG has done is clarify/errata that if the triggering condition involved multiple figures, the affect can apply to all that were involved. However, you still can only choose one of the sections on the card to activate, even if both were triggered at the same time.

Edited by griton

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Where do you see that, Griton? I've never seen that clarification of the errata... For discussion's sake, here  is the line from the "FFG Sez" thread on BGG:

 

"With Ancestor Spirits, any ability that damages multiple monsters will Poison each damaged monster, and any ability that allows damage or fatigue recovery for multiple heroes will recover 1 damage and 1 fatigue for each affected hero."

 

At least according to this, something like Tempest would trigger both halves. I don't doubt for a second Justin wasn't thinking about that when he issued the errata, of course, so...

Edited by amoshias

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Since "unofficial" is unofficial.  I think we will play that both concentration and ancestors spirit target only ONE hero (or monster). Because the card says "that hero" in its singular form.

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Where do you see that, Griton? I've never seen that clarification of the errata... For discussion's sake, here  is the line from the "FFG Sez" thread on BGG:

 

"With Ancestor Spirits, any ability that damages multiple monsters will Poison each damaged monster, and any ability that allows damage or fatigue recovery for multiple heroes will recover 1 damage and 1 fatigue for each affected hero."

I believe it was posted on here a while back, but may have not made it over to BGG. But the way the card reads, it certainly implies it. The card doesn't say "Whenever a monster receives damage or a hero regains fatigue, exhaust this card." It has two separate pieces. The clarification from FFG lists two separate cases too, calling out "any ability" twice, so I'm leaning heavily towards that not contradicting the separation of uses on the card as written.

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The text on the card bears no relationship to any alternate wording which would allowed it to be played based on that ruling. Going to the wording of the card is counterproductive.

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Going to the wording of the card is counterproductive.

Ignore the card if you want, but it's generally a bad idea to assume that the wording on a card is NOT what was meant by FFG unless specifically countered, which in this case, wasn't done. There was a clarification that it didn't apply to only a single hero/monster, but when conversing with the community, you can't just say "Well, that means NOTHING on the card is useful and expect it to stick."

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I'll let you explain to me, then, the following two things:

 

1. How you consider changing "a monster" to "any number of monsters" to be "a clarification." Feel free to use any dictionary you choose.

 

2. What your proposed re-wording of the card that still uses a useful amount of the text? Because you seem pretty certain that the "way the card reads" it "certainly implies" something which is clearly in no way contemplated by the original wording of the card.

 

If FFG is going to ignore the card, I'm going to do so as well. Luckily, it's not like I'm likely to play the class any time soon, as it's still terrible even with the change :-)

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Old thread, but at least it deals with the new issue of "Concentration." The ruling on "ancestor's spirits" applies to that skill and that skill only. We cannot assume that in general "a hero" means "every hero", otherwise "Trading Pains" would be a wonderfully devilish (and broken) card. Also, chronology is important- the people writing the "concentration" ability presumably had knowledge of the confusion and ruling on "ancestor's spirits." Don't you think that if they meant for "concentration" to apply to all heroes, it would have been clarified? If an official question is asked and answered, that's fine- until then, I see no reason to believe that "concentration" shouldn't be played as written.

 

With regard to "ancestor's spirits" and using both effects at once, in normal attack it doesn't work. Heroes would recover the fatigue or wound when spending surges, and after that is finished, damage would be dealt. You  could exhaust the card in response to one trigger or the other, but not "twice" to gain both effects. Even if it were a case of simultaneous damage dealt and healed, the golden rule would apply, and the exhaustion would apply only to the trigger it immediately follows.

Edited by Zaltyre

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Zaltyre - In no cases am I ever going to assume that FFG read any of their own rules, rulings or cards when making new stuff - ESPECIALLY Shadows. So no, I DON'T think if they meant X it would be clarified :-) That being said, I agree with you about the actual ruling.

 

As for ancestor's spirits and both effects at once, I think you're thinking about it too hard. It combos with the Spiritspeaker skill Tempest to trigger both abilities... that combo (as far as I can tell) is the only reason to play the class. It's not much of a reason.

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