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WHY should we have a third faction?

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TTinnitus 

I think a third faction is a bad idea. First what ships would you put in that faction?  A Z-95, and large ships?  It's bad enough people are power gaming like mad by flying two falcons or fire sprays.  The game is slowly getting away from what made wave one so great and that is the flying aspect of the game.  All you have to do with two falcons is fly circles around the board and make your opponent chase you.  Where is the skill in that?  BTW if you play that list I will shred you because I know how to fly against it.  A Pirate faction will be made of mostly large ships because those are the most recognizable ships to fans.  Where is the dog fighting in that?  The game should stay light and dark side like most Star Wars games do.

now as for changing the meta I stick with new torps.  This does amazing things for the game. First what about wedge with a torp that is actually useful?  Like a torp that ignores shields.  First that will kill any rebel fighter tie advanced no problem.   This would also make the tie bomber and b-wing large ship killers which is what this game needs more than a third faction.  What if they add a hyperdrive upgrade so that you can keep a fighter in reserve!  The game needs more fighters before it gets more big ships.  I don't want to start a debate but think about what I'm saying and also think that because of the mouse this game could be on borrowed time.  We are coming to the end of year one and the average game has a two year life.  I think this game could beat the curve but with the way FFG is putting out three waves a year I think they know the mouse is coming. 

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Picasso said:

TTinnitus 

I think a third faction is a bad idea. First what ships would you put in that faction?  A Z-95, and large ships?  It's bad enough people are power gaming like mad by flying two falcons or fire sprays.  The game is slowly getting away from what made wave one so great and that is the flying aspect of the game.  All you have to do with two falcons is fly circles around the board and make your opponent chase you.  Where is the skill in that?  BTW if you play that list I will shred you because I know how to fly against it.  A Pirate faction will be made of mostly large ships because those are the most recognizable ships to fans.  Where is the dog fighting in that?  The game should stay light and dark side like most Star Wars games do.

now as for changing the meta I stick with new torps.  This does amazing things for the game. First what about wedge with a torp that is actually useful?  Like a torp that ignores shields.  First that will kill any rebel fighter tie advanced no problem.   This would also make the tie bomber and b-wing large ship killers which is what this game needs more than a third faction.  What if they add a hyperdrive upgrade so that you can keep a fighter in reserve!  The game needs more fighters before it gets more big ships.  I don't want to start a debate but think about what I'm saying and also think that because of the mouse this game could be on borrowed time.  We are coming to the end of year one and the average game has a two year life.  I think this game could beat the curve but with the way FFG is putting out three waves a year I think they know the mouse is coming. 

 

To answer your first part about what ships would you put in a faction, have you heard of the Vong, Ssi-Ruuk, Chiss, Seperatists, The Republic, The Sith, The Old Republic? Ths game has endless possibilities. Also regarding the part about the game staying "light and dark side like most Star Wars games do" I guess you missed Wizards of the Coast's miniautures game that ran for 7 years that used multiple factions and fringe pieces.

 

As far as this idea of Disney pulling the liscense and this game being on borrowed time, please don't get this confused with what Disney has already done as far as the Clone Wars Animated Series and the 2 video games go. Those were actually aquired by Disney as part of the deal and Disney did not find them lucrative. I don't think Disney would not want to pay legal fees to go to court to pull a liscense. As long as FFG paid them or continues to pay them (depends on the type of contract signed) Disney won't pull this. When it comes time to re-negotiate a new liscense you never know, maybe somebody will be more willing to pay more for the liscense than FFG but I doubt it. I don't think Wizards of the Coast really wanted to give it up, but when they made their press release back in  2010 they pretty much said they could no longer afford it in the current economy. Something leads me to believe that the liscense itself is pretty expensive.

 

Again I find it cute that you continue to make points/debate about a thread that you find useless.

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As esmolinski suggested, there are a multitude of ships available for a third faction.

I'm not promoting the introduction of more factions, although I would find it fun and interresting if FFG chose to so. I probably would find it equally fun if they chose not to. And from what I have read in this topic so far I haven't met many arguments that convince me that keeping x-wing a two faction game is the best idea. Maybe it's a good idea, but so is the opposite. But still, why NOT should we have a third faction? This question is unanswered still.

I'd LIKE FFG to introduce more factions, my favorite ships not yet released belong to others than Rebs or Imps. Many people share this opinion, and why deny them this only to please those who don't? The game probably won't get worse by expanding the range of factions, and I would really like to get example were this was the case before I discuss this further.

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Two Falcons broken? I don't think so personally. Just swarm them with Ties forcing him to run into to them every turn keeping him from taking actions while you have two Interceptors flying circles around him with stealth devices. Falcons are tanks but they will only get two attacks to your eight attacks to start with, and if you focus on one at a time the first one should be gone by the second firing turn. ( Dice gods aside.)

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About the two large ships, when I see a NEW player pick up two falcons or a falcon and an x-wing and they are able to stand their own against those of us who have been playing since July, the tactic should be addressed.  If you add two new large ships you will just see more of this.  My argument is for the appeal of the game as a dog fight not a freighter battle.  I'm not saying it is broken but the build is better than it should be.  This is my argument that they should balance what they have first before thinking about a third faction. 

i did play the WotC game. I didn't care for it.  It was a poor rip off of hero clicks.  You won't change my mind about that. I might be bitter because no one took the time to help me learn the game or play against me in something other than a meat grinder.  I do agree that they did do third fourth and I think even sixth factions.  I'm 90% sure that this is the only Star Wars game to do multipule factions and it tapped the extended universe hard for it.   I don't think it fits the marketing of this game which is rebel vs imperial space battle.  This game sells well in most areas and I know where I live it is incredibly difficult to get ships. I know that the draw of it is the rebel vs imperial. There are a lot of people in my area who don't play games and are playing this.  

I know there are people out there who want a third faction. Down the road a wave or two I could support this.  There are things about this game that are unbalanced. I don't believe a third faction would balance this.   FFG should balance what they have first then add more EU ships.  I could be saying this because I want a Farlander piloted B-wing so bad it's not even funny but when I see people show up the first time they play and fly two large based ships and be competitive after only playing a day or two, something is wrong from a tourney stand point.  Note I'm not saying they win but the are competitive.  I will debate the fact that I think wave two should have been big ships and bombers to keep the balance. I will debate that wave two did wreck one of the beautiful innovative things about this game and that was a players ability to fly.  

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IG-58 said:

All these posts about a third faction seem to buzz around it without quite pinpointing what it will probably be . I don't expect it to be a third "side," I expect it to be NEUTRAL. Sure, you could make a squad out of it exclusively, but you could also drop some of them into either one of the existing factions. Slave-I and the Millenium Falcon are obvious contenders, but so too are ships like the Z-95, Starwing, YT-2400, Rihkxyrk ("pirate") Assault Fighter and so on. The addition of such a faction would allow for a LOT of diversity in a game which, as has been mentioned, has limited creative opportunities.

And with this notion in mind, yeah - two ships in the next wave would actually be just fine (if that's what FFG does).

 

Uber agree.  My first thoughts went back to my Star Wars pocketmodel days.  The game never really took off, but I poured enough into that game to pay someone's salary.  The scum and villany expansion brought "factionless" neutral ships that received their own specific bonuses as well as supporting either side.  Yes, you could field a squad of both rebel and imperial fighters, but it wasn't the same as brining in a mercenary to do some damage for the empire (or rebels). A third faction may help introduce 3 player variant rules as well.

On a personal note, I don't believe that FFG will announce a third faction just yet, but I know I'd be excited for a set of Hapan Miy'til fighters.  Hapes consortium manufactured some of the greatest ships, were able to hold their own, and although advanced in most technologies, had trouble perfecting laser cannons. They made up for slow reload speeds and cool off rate with higher concentrations of cannons (i.e. minigun) and higher fire power.  This could bring a new element to the game. I think we're way off from that every happening, just pointing out that the Star Wars universe makes possibilities endless, so keep an open mind.  :)

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Picasso said:

About the two large ships, when I see a NEW player pick up two falcons or a falcon and an x-wing and they are able to stand their own against those of us who have been playing since July, the tactic should be addressed.  If you add two new large ships you will just see more of this.  My argument is for the appeal of the game as a dog fight not a freighter battle.  I'm not saying it is broken but the build is better than it should be.  This is my argument that they should balance what they have first before thinking about a third faction. 

i did play the WotC game. I didn't care for it.  It was a poor rip off of hero clicks.  You won't change my mind about that. I might be bitter because no one took the time to help me learn the game or play against me in something other than a meat grinder.  I do agree that they did do third fourth and I think even sixth factions.  I'm 90% sure that this is the only Star Wars game to do multipule factions and it tapped the extended universe hard for it.   I don't think it fits the marketing of this game which is rebel vs imperial space battle.  This game sells well in most areas and I know where I live it is incredibly difficult to get ships. I know that the draw of it is the rebel vs imperial. There are a lot of people in my area who don't play games and are playing this.  

I know there are people out there who want a third faction. Down the road a wave or two I could support this.  There are things about this game that are unbalanced. I don't believe a third faction would balance this.   FFG should balance what they have first then add more EU ships.  I could be saying this because I want a Farlander piloted B-wing so bad it's not even funny but when I see people show up the first time they play and fly two large based ships and be competitive after only playing a day or two, something is wrong from a tourney stand point.  Note I'm not saying they win but the are competitive.  I will debate the fact that I think wave two should have been big ships and bombers to keep the balance. I will debate that wave two did wreck one of the beautiful innovative things about this game and that was a players ability to fly.  

 

You are the poster child for why I do not play in tournaments. Re-read your above rant about not wanting new players beating you because they have only been playing for a day or two. This game is new and the more people who buy into it the better. If you can't swarm a n00b into a corner with 2 large ships and let the dice gods decide your fate, you might want to reconsider how you play this game.

 

I also like how you have been playing this game longer then it was even "previewed" at GenCon last year. I myself have been playing since December and welcome anyone to try to play X-Wing. However you have gone off topic and welcome you to try to re-state your point (that you thought was pointless to begin with). I myself am a realist. Like I pointed out earlier in this thread when people were actually debating the benefit / lack of benefit of expanding beyond two factions, what happens for the future of this game if it is kept soley rebel imperial? You will run out of ships in this scenario by the end of this year or whenever waive 4 is released. So you get your B-Wing either waive 3 or a future waive, that's great I want a couple myself. Once you get that ship and use it until your heart is content, what next? I personally believe this game could (depends on how long this game is produced) see upwords to 35-40 ships at the size of the YT-1300 or smaller, most have already been mentioned in this thread. Some would be big game changers, which is where I think the problem lies for you. If you think defeating two large ships is a problem wait until someone comes at you with a swarm of coral skippers (hypothetically) that you can't destroy with lasers.

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Too bad this thread seems to be succumbing to the usual personal vendettas and grudges that are unfortunate byproducts of the Interwebz culture. When it starts to degenerate to personal insults is when the community suffers. How about dialing it back a bit? If you don't like to play in tournaments, fine. But don't start insulting those who do, since that is clearly an important part of the community that FFG is trying to build. Personally I've had a blast travelling to several different events, meeting great people and having a great time playing this game. I have never placed significantly in any of those events and have no illusions of doing so. But if you think the competitive side of this game is totally dominated by a bunch of cutthroat players who will win at any cost you are woefully mistaken, and you are missing out on a very enjoyable aspect of the game.

Back on topic - I don't know canon, I don't know ships, I don't know all the factions that may be available, prequel, EU, comics or otherwise. What I do know is this: At this point in time, it would be very difficult to introduce a third faction to the game, if you are talking about a faction that stands alone. Rebels and Empire each have 3 small and 1 large ships available - it would be distinctly unbalanced to have a third faction available that did not have that same ship availability. I don't think FFG would devote a whole wave of expansions to a new faction - that would not please the current Rebel/Imperial players. If a third faction would be introduced, it would probably need to be done by a "deluxe" expansion, which included the ships necessary to balance that faction with the currently available Rebel/Imperial ships. Frankly I do not see this happening very soon.

Of much more likelihood are truly neutral ships that can be used by either side. For the time being, I hope this is what wave 3 will include. Beyond which deponent sayeth not.

 

 

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ziggy2000 said:

At this point in time, it would be very difficult to introduce a third faction to the game, if you are talking about a faction that stands alone. Rebels and Empire each have 3 small and 1 large ships available - it would be distinctly unbalanced to have a third faction available that did not have that same ship availability. I don't think FFG would devote a whole wave of expansions to a new faction - that would not please the current Rebel/Imperial players. If a third faction would be introduced, it would probably need to be done by a "deluxe" expansion, which included the ships necessary to balance that faction with the currently available Rebel/Imperial ships. Frankly I do not see this happening very soon.

The problem is that however hard it might be at this point, it's certainly not going to get any easier.  If the gap is too big at 4 ships, it's going to be worse at 6.  And whatever "deluxe" expansion might try to introduce the new faction will almost certainly have to have something for the Rebel/Imperial (because not giving them something is bad) which means balancing it up would require 7-8 ships for the new faction plus the 1-2 for the Rebels/Imps, for a release wave of 9-12 or so.

I honestly don't think stiffing the Rebels/Imps is all that unlikely here.  Let's be honest - X-wing is not a game which is conducive to just playing a single faction.  Possible?  Yes, but FFG makes it intentionally hard by controlling the upgrade distribution.  I don't think FFG has a lot of concern in their hearts for the "But I only play Rebels" player.

Those upgrades would also mean that Rebel and Imperial players would get something out of the new wave even if it is devoted to a new faction.  There will undoubtedly be cries of agony and rending of clothes as those who don't want to play the new faction see upgrades they want in those ship expansions, but again - this is already a fact of playing X-wing.

Not necessarily saying any of this is the best way to go, or even what FFG has chosen to do with it.  Just saying that I think "They can't do it" isn't really borne out.

 

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ziggy2000 said:

Too bad this thread seems to be succumbing to the usual personal vendettas and grudges that are unfortunate byproducts of the Interwebz culture. When it starts to degenerate to personal insults is when the community suffers. How about dialing it back a bit? If you don't like to play in tournaments, fine. But don't start insulting those who do, since that is clearly an important part of the community that FFG is trying to build. Personally I've had a blast travelling to several different events, meeting great people and having a great time playing this game. I have never placed significantly in any of those events and have no illusions of doing so. But if you think the competitive side of this game is totally dominated by a bunch of cutthroat players who will win at any cost you are woefully mistaken, and you are missing out on a very enjoyable aspect of the game.

 

 

I know I'm part of the guilty party in this instance and I will refrain from more insults because you are right most people who play in tournaments are great people. I just wish if you wanted to complain about something not related to the original question in this thread, create your own about the topic you wish to gripe about.

To Buhallin, I could not agree with you more on your point of the longer you wait to do possibly a 3rd faction the harder it will be to sell. I am an optimist, I hope FFG does go this route of a 3rd faction or neutral party and  they do an expansion this year (me wishful thinking). If they don't I would still continue buying whatever they put out as long as it continues to be fun. If FFG would decide to expand outside of rebel/imperial 2-3 years down the road, the game would definitely be unbalanced, especially for those fighters already made (such as how would the X-wing or Tie Fighter deal with new such faction).

It would also be nice to be able to look into a crystal ball to see how many ships will be made during the duration of FFG having the liscense. If it's only 12-16 ships we are all debating over a moot point. However if it does go 35-40 ships there are so many possibilites from ship size that would fit in this spectrum, the smallest being a vulture droid (not really my cup of tea but I'll put it out there) and the larget being The Rogue Shadow or GR-75 Medium transport (with the Rogue Shadow being a fan favorite that I think people would really play with). I'm sure FFG has someone or a team dedicated to this idea of long term expansions play testing ideas as we continue to write what we think is best.

 

 

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Esmolinski,

first I think you are missing my point about the power gaming.  You shouldn't be able to pull a core set and a falcon off the shelf and be that competitive. Why buy any other ships?  Why fly anything else?  This is why I think the EU factions and ships should wait.  Balance the game between fighters and freighters first.  

There are marketing reasons for this as well. I know retail chains are carring the core set and I have a friend who works in a corporate office for one of these chains and she emailed me asking about this game because they might shelf it at Xmas.  The average Star Wars fan has little knowledge of the EU.  They will buy. Ships they have seen in force unleashed and the movies.  

Las far as my involvement with new players, I run my LGS game night where I invite and teach players.  I did a demo for a game store for board game day, and just this past weekend when the store I was playing at caught me leaving and asked if I would stay and teach new players how to play.  I did.  Believe me I promote this game in a positive way all the time.  

I'm going to start a new thread soon about power gaming and game balance where this discussion belongs.  I know for me it comes out of this discussion but we are starting to debate two different reasons about a third faction. 

Im tossing this out there.

wave three,

z-95

B-wing

Tie bomber and defender.

 

wave ffour all the other bounty hunters from the bridge of the executor as neutral. 

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Buhallin, you're absolutely right - if they're going to add a stand-alone faction, now would be the easiest time to do it. I didn't mean to imply that they couldn't, only that like you I'm not sure that's the direction they are going, or should go. If they do go that route with wave 3, I think there will be a lot of people disappointed that they don't get their Bomber and B-Wing, possibly about the same number that would be overjoyed to see a third faction. It would definitely be more difficult to add a faction further down the line, given the current release model. I guess we just need to wait for May 3rd to see if the announcement has any clues to the direction they will go with the game.

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Just throwing this out there, but…

…we all know how much FFG likes recycling art between their games.  Take a look at the second pic from the bottom, here.

Could be nothing, or…could be the two fighters we end up with in Wave 3, alongside the B-Wing and TIE Bomber.  I assume they'd both be a third faction, if we DID get them.  (And then for this 'pirate/smuggler' faction, issue some new pilots for the Y-Wing, YT-1300, and Firespray, and you have a full 5-ship faction.  Lots of 'shared' ships, too, which would definitely make this a 'shakes up the meta game' faction!)

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I think they can slowly start adding a neutral faction as early as this waive, the reason being outside of the B-wing Bomber there is no defenite 2nd rebel ship in the OT. Since Picasso shot out a list of possible ideas, I would like to take that a step further and give an idea of what the next two waives could look like to incorporate a neutral faction. Please don't critique this too hard as it's only an idea to show people how you could add a neutral faction in without disrupting the balance too much.

Waive 3

B-Wing - Rebel

Tie Bomber - Imperial

Z-95 Headhunter - Neutral (cheap small ship with shields)

YT-2400 - Neutral

 

Waive 4

E-Wing - Rebel

Tie Defender - Imperial (might be too broken, but sounds better right now than a Lambda -4 transport)

Tie Ugly - Neutral (cheap small ship without shields)

Buado Class Star Yacht - Neutral

 

If X-Wing ever does go this route with a neutral faction a definite upgrade card would have to be called Mercenary. This upgrade would allow you to fly with either faction.

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One other reason that I think they might go for the new faction now is that doing so would make future waves a bit easier:

Wave 3: 4 new ships for Black Sun (which I think it will be, if they do it, since they like formal organizations)

Wave 4+: 3 ships, 1 for each faction

<shrug>  I don't know what they'll do with it.  I can see it going either way.  But as mentioned above, I think that if they intend to introduce more factions, it will happen sooner rather than later.

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xanderf said:

Just throwing this out there, but…

…we all know how much FFG likes recycling art between their games.  Take a look at the second pic from the bottom, here.

Could be nothing, or…could be the two fighters we end up with in Wave 3, alongside the B-Wing and TIE Bomber.  I assume they'd both be a third faction, if we DID get them.  (And then for this 'pirate/smuggler' faction, issue some new pilots for the Y-Wing, YT-1300, and Firespray, and you have a full 5-ship faction.  Lots of 'shared' ships, too, which would definitely make this a 'shakes up the meta game' faction!)

 

The ship in the picture is a CloakShape fighter. They are highly customizable fighters used by lots of different groups. If they did introduce them, maybe they would have a special ability that would allow them to handle more than one modification. New modification cards and the fact that the fighter was used by many different factions (i.e. neutral/3rd faction) could be an interesting idea for a new ship.

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alagron said:

xanderf said:

 

Just throwing this out there, but…

…we all know how much FFG likes recycling art between their games.  Take a look at the second pic from the bottom, here.

Could be nothing, or…could be the two fighters we end up with in Wave 3, alongside the B-Wing and TIE Bomber.  I assume they'd both be a third faction, if we DID get them.  (And then for this 'pirate/smuggler' faction, issue some new pilots for the Y-Wing, YT-1300, and Firespray, and you have a full 5-ship faction.  Lots of 'shared' ships, too, which would definitely make this a 'shakes up the meta game' faction!)

 

 

 

The ship in the picture is a CloakShape fighter. They are highly customizable fighters used by lots of different groups. If they did introduce them, maybe they would have a special ability that would allow them to handle more than one modification. New modification cards and the fact that the fighter was used by many different factions (i.e. neutral/3rd faction) could be an interesting idea for a new ship.

 

That's the ship in front, yup.  It's a Z-95 chasing it, too - so both of those would be new.

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I personally would like for FFG to eventually release a third faction just so that we can have three way battles of Rebels vs. Imperials vs. Hutts/Mercs/whatever.

 

I don't think the third faction has to be made up entirely of new ships though. Just new pilots.

 

I still think they will eventually come out with a GHTROC 720 Light Freighter miniature. Why? Well looking at the RPG, they give you a choice of starting off with a Firespray, YT-1300 or a GHTROC 720. Yeah the RPG and the miniature game are separate but still, seems like a logical choice especially when people like to represent their characters and stuff with minis.

 

Edit: Oops, sorry for the necromancy. I was flipping through some of the earlier posts early in the morning (my son seems to enjoy waking me up at 3am lately...) and left the computer on. When I finally got back to my computer, for some reason I was thinking that the page I was on was the first page and I didn't look at the date of the posts.

Edited by Redeemer31

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I fully expect a third faction - but i expect it to arrive with a fourth faction as well.  Republic vs Separatists or the like.  I'd frankly much prefer 2 new ones instead of 1 that needs to be extremely carefully monitored to make sure it's balanced for both sides.

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Well since redeemer has revived this post :) , have any of you tried playing a 3 or 4 player free for all game? And if so, how successful was it?

The problem i see with this is its way to easy for 2 players to gang up on another because he brought that super annoying ship that no one wants to deal with for the whole game. Or 1 player who tries to hide in the corner of the board and lob in the occasional shot until he can mop up whoevers left.

I'd be excited to see the integration of a third or fourth faction, but I am concerned about how it could be done in a way to avoid frustrating/annoying scenarios like this from being common.

Although, i suppose if you are the guy who hides in the corner all the time, no one will want to play with you. I guess that could be a pretty big deterent. LOL

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FYI, This was brought up at Star Wars weekend during a discussion panel.  The Question was "Will we see more factions like a Republic and Separatist?"  The answer was No.  They also elaborated that they will go into the EU, which they already have done, and that the game will only ever be Rebel vs Empire.  Some of the FFG guys were talking about 30 some ships in the entire game.

 

@Moose,

I have played those multiplayer games.  They go exactly like you described.  We added additional rules to move game play along and balance it out.

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I have played a bunch of 3 player free-for-alls. They go exactly like any game of warfare and domination (ie, Risk) – everyone is out for themselves until there is a clear front-runner, then the others tend to gang up on the front-runner until he is no longer the front-runner, and so on. The natural balance of this CAN be frustrating, but in general I have found it to still be pretty fun... in the 5 or 6 games I have played like this, no single player has ever been eliminated or totally out of the fight for more than a few turns at the end. It always still ends up very close.

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