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Mallesh

Ours for the Taking

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Can the Greyjoy event card "Ours for the Taking" be used with "Black Cells" or any other response effect locations?

Plus could you use “Ours for the Taking” on a location that could only be triggered during a particular phase any phase?

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Mallesh said:

Can the Greyjoy event card "Ours for the Taking" be used with "Black Cells" or any other response effect locations?
Not in a practical sense. The event is an "Any Phase" effect. The location ability that you copy resolves when you play the event. Since you copy the entire ability (other than the "kneel this location" cost), you will still be held to the play restictions of the Response - which will never be met because of the timing of the event.

Using your example, you cannot play the "Any Phase" effect for Ours for the Taking during the response step of the shadow action in which Black Cells would be used. And by the time you can play the "Any Phase" effect, the "after a card comes out of shadows" restriction on Black Cells will not be true.

So while it is technically possible to use Ours for the Taking with Black Cells, the copied ability will "fizzle" because its play restrictions are not met.

Mallesh said:

Plus could you use “Ours for the Taking” on a location that could only be triggered during a particular phase any phase?
Yes. You can use Ours for the Taking on any "standard player action" location.

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Thanks for the quick response but could you clarify the second part a bit. If you had a location with an effect that could only be used in dominance and you played "Ours for the Taking" on it in challenges would the effect still work or would it fizzle out because its not dominace?

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Mallesh said:

Thanks for the quick response but could you clarify the second part a bit. If you had a location with an effect that could only be used in dominance and you played "Ours for the Taking" on it in challenges would the effect still work or would it fizzle out because its not dominace?

It copies "Dominance: …." and treats it like "Any Phase: …..".  Therefore, it allows you to turn Phase X into an Any Phase that can be played Any Phase.  It's a pretty neat event for that matter.

Also keep in mind that it copies the location effect and turns it into an event effect.  So, it's a way to hurt Stannis Baratheon(VM) with a location effect turned event effect because he isn't immune to events.  :-)

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Strictly speaking, it doesn't copy the "Dominance:…" trigger on the location. It copies everything AFTER the "Dominance:…" trigger as the resolving event effect. It is the event (Any Phase) that is being triggered and resolved, not the location (Dominance). 

Note that, just like a Response, if there is a Dominance-specific play restriction on the ability after the "Dominance:…" trigger (e.g., "Play if you won Dominance this phase…"), that could ruin the effectiveness of copying the ability in a different phase. 

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So, we now have the card text for Longship Maiden's Bane, which was one of the cards already partially spoiled earlier for A Hidden Agenda. The cardtext is:

 

Warship Challenges: During a challenge, kneel Longship Maiden's Bane to have it participate in the current challenge as a character with 'cannot be killed' and X STR. X is the number of Warship cards you control.

 

Now, after a bit of thinking this made me think back on Ours for the Taking, and how these two will interact? I can see this going in a few different directions, but don't want to steer the discussion, so I thought I'd just raise the question.

 

On a related note, I remember hearing some rumours about Ours for the Taking being ruled contrary to the way discussed here at Worlds. Is this just hearsay, or is there some truth to the matter? I tried submitting a question on that (with using Scourge during an Epic Phase, or Aegon's Hill during Marshalling as examples) to FFG, but so far no response.

 

Actually, with regard to The Scourge, if you utilize the effect via Ours for the Taking, should the character be considered to have lost the icon to The Scourge or to Ours for the Taking? This is quite relevant due to the Response: on The Scourge. 

Edited by WWDrakey

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I think you're going to want to send it to FFG. There are two potential problems; the self-referential ability and questions of control.

 

1) For the self-referential question, you run into the problem of whether the event would make all copies of Maiden's Bane in play participate (which FFG would likely rule doesn't work), or whether the fact that you have to choose a single copy of Maiden's Bane to copy identifies it as the only one that will participate.

 

2) For the questions of control in a GJ-GJ mirror match, you might not be able to make a card controlled by the opponent participate on your side, since normally, you have to control a card to declare it as an attacker/defender. (Yes, you are not declaring the Warship here, but there may be some hold-over in the situation.) You certainly would not control the opponent's location if you made it participate for you, but that, in and of itself, is no obstacle.

 

I haven't heard anything about a contrary ruling at Worlds, however, I wouldn't believe the rumors until you actually see something in the FAQ. It seems to happen at least once every year that FFG makes a call at Worlds that people think is contrary to existing rulings/interpretations. More often than not, it usually turns out that the person reporting the call didn't have all the information, or that there was something about the situation that resulted in the "wrong" call. That said, it wouldn't be impossible for FFG to decide that a "Dominance" trigger on a location should be interpreted as a "trigger during the dominance phase" play restriction that would be copied, but until I see it in the FAQ, I think it's better to stick with what we have over some rumor of something that might have happened (if we can get the full story) at Worlds.

 

With copying The Scourge, it is Ours For the Taking that resolves and takes away the icons, not The Scourge. So the play restrictions for the Response part of the location are not met and no one can "mitigate" the icon loss. That self-referential stuff is a b!+ch sometimes....

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To be clear, the full text of the effect is: "Challenges: During a challenge, kneel Longship Maiden's Bane to have it participate in the current challenge on your side as a character with "cannot be killed" and X STR. X is the number of Warship cards you control." So I think it makes sense that the player using Ours for the Taking would bring Maiden's Bane into the challenge on their side, without kneeling it.

What I'm not sure about is, in the case where the player is using OFTT to grab an opponent's Maiden's Bane, can the opponent then kneel it to switch it to their own side of the challenge?

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@Pandemic: 

 

Shows what I get for cutting corners by copy-pasting the text without being thorough enough with checking it through - good catch. Not sure if that really solves the control/participation issue though, although it does make more of a case for that interpretation. And that interpretation would tend to bring further questions with regard to the effect and switching between sides, as you mention.

 

@Ktom:

 

I was thinking pretty much the same thing with the timing, but it's always good to have a second opinion. I also recall several other cases down the years when we've heard rumours of 'new interpretation's from GenCon/Worlds, and I'm pretty sure the actual ratio of those having been confirmed later on is below 50%. Usually just misunderstandings of one kind or another.

 

The Scourge thing is really a nice example of self-referentiality providing interesting outcomes... 

 

Anyway, I think I'll follow your suggestion and submit Ours for the Taking vs. Maiden's Bane to FFG as a question. If somebody comes up with another corner-case there which may cause issues, I'd gladly add it to the query.

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I knew the correct text and the thoughts I gave were in line with the "on your side" verbiage.

 

You are certainly correct that there is no obstacle to using Ours for the Taking to having the location participate (as a character) without kneeling it. Characters join challenges without kneeling all the time. Further, if you use Ours for the Taking on a copy of Maiden's Bane that is already kneeling, there's no reason to think it wouldn't participate (kneeling) since the "kneel to" cost is ignored. However, the "on your side" clarification does not address:

 

1. When I use Ours for the Taking on a copy of Maiden's Bane, do ALL copies of Maiden's Bane in play enter the challenge on my side since the effect is no longer self-referential?

 

2. Is the effect of Maiden's Bane considered enough like "declaring" a character that I could not use Ours for the Taking on a copy I did not control?

 

For the record, I think current rules and rulings make the answer to #1, "Yes, all copies of Maiden's Bane join the challenge on your side" and the answer to #2, "No, there is no problem using the event on an opponent's Maiden's Bane." However, both questions could involve larger questions of precedent and balance that I don't see or appreciate at this point, so I wouldn't be surprised to see FFG make specific rulings to one or both situations.

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Ours for the Taken couldn't possibly be used on a participating Maiden's Bane because it will be a character at that point and no longer a location.

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Sorry, I thought the text was the issue for the question of control. I was mainly thinking of Bran Stark's (FaI) effect: "Challenges: During a challenge, kneel Bran Stark to choose and kneel a standing, non-participating, non-Army character with higher STR than printed cost. That character is now participating in the current challenge on your side."

Looking at it now, the fact that Bran's is a targeted ability and Maiden's Bane is self-referential muddies things a bit. I agree that it'd be best to wait for an official ruling on all of this.

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Ours for the Taken couldn't possibly be used on a participating Maiden's Bane because it will be a character at that point and no longer a location.

 

???

Did I miss where this issue came up?

 

What I'm not sure about is, in the case where the player is using OFTT to grab an opponent's Maiden's Bane, can the opponent then kneel it to switch it to their own side of the challenge?

 

Sorry. Forgot about this one. The answer is "no." Once a character is participating in a challenge, they cannot be made to participate in the same challenge a second time. If Player A used OftT on Player B's Maiden's Bane (so that it was now participating on Player A's side, standing, but under the control of Player B), Player B could not then kneel the same card, activating the self-referential ability (which does not depend on card-type), to have it also participate on Player B's side.

 

It's the same reason Core-Greatjon cannot stand, then jump into the same challenge on the opposite side.

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Ours for the Taken couldn't possibly be used on a participating Maiden's Bane because it will be a character at that point and no longer a location.

 

???

Did I miss where this issue came up?

 

I thought I had read this in the thread and didn't recall seeing an answer.  Maybe I misread the thread.

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