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Cervantes3773

Crimson Guard questions

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One of my players is making a Crimson Guard and I have a few questions.

1) What's with the intergrated melee weapon proficiency?  What integrated melee weapon does the CG have?  I understood the venator blade to be a regular dagger.

2) The integrated lasgun repaces one of the CG's arms, right?  How have other GMs accounted for this, if at all?  Can the CG have a functioning hand over the lasgun that moves out of the way when s/he wishes to fire?  CG's start with a single cybernetic (beyond the standard Mechancius suite), would that be a reasonable one?

3) What have been your thoughts on, and/or experiences with the Crimson Guard?  Anything I should watch out for?

Thanks!

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Cervantes3773 said:

3) What have been your thoughts on, and/or experiences with the Crimson Guard?  Anything I should watch out for?

I don't have any first-hand experience with Crimson Guard PCs, but the comments on various threads about them have been overwhelmingly negative. The fifth post on this thread is a good example.

At a glance, they seem pretty broken (carapace armour for free at Rank 1?!), with advantages that render regular Guardsmen obsolete, and no offsetting disadvantages. As a GM, I wouldn't allow them in my campaign…

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Thanks for the input.  Bloody malth has some interesting points.  I think I'm going to take away the carapace and the integrated lasgun to start and give him more "standard" guardsman equipment.

From an RP perspective, the Crimson Guard is PERFECT for this player (he would make a militant techpriest anyway) so I'd like to make the concept and class work, rather than make him choose something else.

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All the "normal" weapons the CG have access to is integrated. This includes their starting lasgun. 
They can also create integrated weapons outta most other conventional weapons if they have the skill, tech and know-how

The lasgun they start with does not replace their arm, thats the higher end lascannon thing they get access to. 
The other one is "just" a lasgun with a bunch of cables attached to him.

The knife is not integrated. Its a lathe wannabe unattached knife.

Personally I dont allow CG in my campaigns, and the other GMs (we run multiple campaigns within the same group of people) dont allow them other.
They are the most overpowered characters to enter the game, aside from the psyker.. and at least they take a few levels to wind up the power level.
The starting gear on them are rediculously overpowered, and many of the skills they get access to quite fast, just makes it even worse.
They end up as unkillable killingmachines quite early on in my opinion.

Will gladly clarify on all the problems with them on a later stage if needed :) For now.. off to work ;)

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Cervantes3773 said:

Thanks for the input.  Bloody malth has some interesting points.  I think I'm going to take away the carapace and the integrated lasgun to start and give him more "standard" guardsman equipment.

From an RP perspective, the Crimson Guard is PERFECT for this player (he would make a militant techpriest anyway) so I'd like to make the concept and class work, rather than make him choose something else.

I'm glad you liked my suggestions.

The gear is the worst part of the Crimson Guards' unplayability, so modifying that will help out quite a bit. There is more, however. Crimson Guard are able to swap their intelligence with their Fellowship when interacting with other Mechanicus, an ability regular tech-priests don't even get (seriously, who proof-read this?). I would remove this since it doesn't have a whole lot to do with their idiom and pretty much gives them a bonus ability for nothing. Or at least extend this trait to all Cult Mechanicus.

Crimson Guard gain an augmetic every odd rank; this ability gives them 4 free augmetics if they live to see rank 7. This isn't much of a problem in the game I am playing. Crimson Guard lack the trade skills that real tech-priests get, and the latter get bonus cyber at character creation. You could limit this if you think it will affect your game adversely, but I think this really isn't a problem.

Integrated weapons can only be made at Forge Worlds. Enforce this. If your CG player gets a shiny new toy that he wants to integrate, he should only be able to do so in the limited capacity the book spells out.

Even with all this, Crimson Guard will probably still outclass regular Guardsmen. Their rank 1 table is massive and comprehensive and from what I remember, their Characteristic Advance Table is slightly better than the Guardsman's. There isn't much you can do about that, but I wouldn't let a Crimson Guard take any other alternate ranks: they are a singular type of character. The Guardsmen alternate ranks don't really fit them and they don't qualify for the Tech-priest ones (they are still technically Guardsmen, not Tech-priests). I would be very careful about giving them any elite advances; I believe the lack of Trade skills in their rank structure is a deliberate omission and as I mentioned before, their rank 1 table is has more than enough skills and talents. Later, your player may feel like the Mechanicus Secutor from the Inquisitor's Handbook (or something similar) or Trade: Armourer would be perfect for his character. I suggest that you say no and remind him of how powerful his character already is.

Remind your player that Crimson Guard do not start with any ballistic talents other than Integrated Ranged Weapon, so, if you give him different starting gear, he will have to buy the talent to use it. Don't worry, I'm pretty sure it is in their rank structure.

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Here is the easiest. Make a Guardsman from a forgeworld, make a Background package for him, have him be a standard "troop" that is very low down or a skiitaari/crimson guard in training, start giving him the stuff when appropiate (not all, but some), have him already be augmented, but notthing that gives powerful boosts early on.

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bloody malth said:

Crimson Guard are able to swap their intelligence with their Fellowship when interacting with other Mechanicus, an ability regular tech-priests don't even get


I'd say this is more a problem with Tech-Priests than it is with Crimson Guard. Tech-Priests should be able to do just that.

And "unplayability" is such a strong word.

BYE

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Okay, they can't learn acrobatics, barter, blather, carouse, charm, chem-use, climb command, concealment, contortionist, deceive, demolition, disguise, dodge, evaluate, gamle, inquiry, interrogation, intimidate, lip reading, literacy(THEY CAN'T READ), medicae, performer, scholastic lores, shadowing silent move, sleight of hand, survival swim tracking trade or wrangling. 

So replacing fel with int is a good thing BECAUSE EVERY SKILL IS AT HALF THAT STAT, how is that 'op' int would be a stat that would be high, maybe 50-60 at the highest, so thats what 25-30 to roll at best on all interaction skills?

They can't learn ambidextrous and is either right or left handed, can't get battlemaster or blind fighting, can't get  bulging biceps, combat master or non of the additional damage with crack shot crippling strike and crushing blow and mighty shot, cant reduce called shot penalties with deadeye shot or sharpshooter. no multiple strikes, no bonuses from ganging up, can't get fearless, or hard target, no heightened senses, can't get leap up light sleeper or lightning reflexes, no marks man, or paranoia, no precise blow, only 2 sound constitution or flesh is weak, can't get two-weapon wielder and quickdraw or rapid reaction. 

 

So you have a CG with 8-14 wounds, 4-5 tb and 6 ap early on…  okay so someone fires a bolt gun, two shots hit, 4 pen, 1d10+5 damage, with tearing the damage will be above average so 11 damage for the first hit, -2 from armor -4 from tb thats 5 damage say 12 wounds, so 7 wounds now, next shot does 9 damage 2 armor soak 4 tb soak 3 additional damage, 8 wounds gone. But then again bolt weapons are expensive, and so are the rounds, but a krak grenade is not, 60 thrones, 6 pen 2d10+4 damage…

 

Over all crimson guard is sh*tty, it's bad, all you do good is fight early game, late game your a good shield and sub-par shoot or brawler. sure they will do good against solid projectile weapons and primitive melee. 

 

They are the guardmen of the forgeworld, Skitarii's basically, they only do well if there are many of them.

 

remeber dh is more akin to clue then it is akin to risk

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Erm, you Sir made a big mistake…

 

CG is an ALTERNATE Career rank. You replace Rank 1 of the standard Guardsman with this broken CG-Tables and are still able to level up on the other Guardsmen ranks. So nearly all talents you said they do not posses are available to them.

From early to late game they are combat monsters though as "skitarii" they are not much above a servitor. Also keep in mind they are no Tech-Priests though they get most of their fancy gear and talents (nobody actually knows why).

Also your view on Skitarii is kinda "unfair". In comparison to mere guardsman a the skitarii are mostly far superior in symetrical warfare. Also they have, dependant on fluff, some elite branches. But do not mistake them for the elite branches of the tech-priests, those are the powerhouses in any aspect of the AdMech, even if the CG seems to mock this fact.

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Oh ****… your right…

 

This changes EVERYTHING…

 

Skitarii is the guardman of the forge worlds, but yeah they are at least 3 times better. 

 

The true power of the mecanicus remains unknown.

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If i remember correctly CG are a kind of Skitarii special forces of the Lathes. That would make them better than your average Skitarii.

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Actually, they're not Skitarii at all. The Skitarii of the Lathe-worlds were wiped out and the Crimson Guard were created as a placeholder until the real Skitarii could replenish ranks. They are now held above Skitarii as the true elite combat arm of the Lathe worlds AdMech. 

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The Calixis Skitarii weren't wiped out, per se, just gutted to the point where they were no longer an effective fighting force. The best of the remainder were used as the starting point for the Crimson Guard.

BYE

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...They are now held above Skitarii as the true elite combat arm of the Lathe worlds AdMech. 

-Which just drives home the fact that this 'alternate rank' is wildly inappropriate for Rank 1 PCs. No other Career allows novice characters to be 'best of the best' elites right out of the gate (except the Blood of Martyrs version of Sisters of Battle- which are also badly broken). It would have made much more sense to present a standard Skitarii alternate rank available at Rank 1, with an upgrade to Crimson Guard allowed at a higher x.p. total.

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There is a simple answer staring you in the face. Don't allow it as a rank 1. If you make them role a more standard Forgeworld  guardsman and not let them have the alt rank till rank 3, 4 or even 5 when carapace armor is not going to be more standard and they are going miss out on some better skills or talents.

Edited by Face Eater

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The thing is it doesn't make sense at anything other than rank 1. A member of the Imperial Guard doesn't just become a Venatorii some time in his career in the same way that a Scum doesn't "turn into" a Lathesmaster. It's why these careers are Rank 1 careers. You have to be one from the start.

BYE

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Hello All

I've resolved this problem using this exact same logic- but in reverse. 

 

The thing is it doesn't make sense at anything other than rank 1. A member of the Imperial Guard doesn't just become a Venatorii some time in his career in the same way that a Scum doesn't "turn into" a Lathesmaster. It's why these careers are Rank 1 careers. You have to be one from the start.

BYE.

 

For a couple of careers [Calixis Templar] for example, I've imposed some heavy Rped Restrictions. Same thing with the Crimson Guard: sure, you can only take Crimson guard at rank 1- but once you do, you can never leave it. Once a Venatorii, always a Venatorii.... Can't imagine one of these guys becoming a Penal Guardsman, a Feral Warrior, an Oblationist Sin Eater, a Malfian Blood-sworn, or any of the other myriads of options available to the guardsmen. 

 

In essence, the Crimson Guard is its complete own career path- and there's enough EXP in it to last you all the way to rank 8 and more, if you count stat advances. At best, I would allow a Crimson Guard to purchase something on the actual Guardsman table for the 50-Extra Exp, or heck, maybe even a bit more. 

 

The idea is that once you've chosen to start off as a crimson guard, the only way out is Death, or as a servitor. 

Edited by Saldre

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For a couple of careers [Calixis Templar] for example, I've imposed some heavy Rped Restrictions. Same thing with the Crimson Guard: sure, you can only take Crimson guard at rank 1- but once you do, you can never leave it. Once a Venatorii, always a Venatorii.... Can't imagine one of these guys becoming a Penal Guardsman, a Feral Warrior, an Oblationist Sin Eater, a Malfian Blood-sworn, or any of the other myriads of options available to the guardsmen. 

 

 

Makes perfect sense to me. I wouldn't allow stacking of alternate ranks either.

BYE

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The thing is it doesn't make sense at anything other than rank 1.

 

Fine, if the creator of the alternate rank says it shouldn't be allowed at anything other than Rank 1, and it inarguably is not balanced to be a Rank 1 PC option, then that just reinforces my belief that I was right to disallow them in my campaign.

 

Seriously, can you really claim that the Crimson Guard are anything other than a very obvious attempt to have your own pet creation be 'tougher' than any other starting Career, out of sheer ego?

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It is not even abouht "toughness" at all. The Crimson Guard is just a better Tech-Priest in low-med groups. Even in terms of combat a secutor can not compare. Yes, you could houserule that the TP gets his hand on some CG stuff too but is that realy the point?

 

In my game the Crimson Guard are just some sort of skitarii. They are a bit more advanced than servitors to give answers not just only in binary chatter but beside of that they are just shiny mobile weapon platforms without any true or deep personality or value as a human being - case closed.

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It is not even abouht "toughness" at all. The Crimson Guard is just a better Tech-Priest in low-med groups. 

Why? Because he can buy advancements normally available to higher ranks for twice or thrice the cost? I really don't think it's a worthwhile option if what you want to do is "Tech-Priest stuff" rather than "Shooting things while shouting 'Omnissiah!'".

 

 

Even in terms of combat a secutor can not compare.

I really don't think so. A Secutor gets Machinator Array (probably the single most broken Talent in Inquisitor's Hanbook), can buy twice as many points of The Flesh is Weak throughout his career (with the first two costing him half of what the CG is paying), and gets cheaper Toughness advances to become the ultimate tank. Also, being an actual Tech-Priest, he can boss the Venator around.

 

 

Yes, you could houserule that the TP gets his hand on some CG stuff too but is that realy the point?

Houserule what exactly? The only really unique things CG is getting is those two new Traits. Everything else is easily available to the Tech-Priest.

 

I'm not contesting that the alternate rank is strong, very strong in fact. But you're seriously overstating how much of an unfair advantage it creates.

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I'm not contesting that the alternate rank is strong, very strong in fact. But you're seriously overstating how much of an unfair advantage it creates.

 

 

I double-checked to see if I was overstating Crimson Guard's 'overpoweredness', and noticed some things that I initially missed:

 

The free 'magic lasgun' they start with does damage comparable to a boltgun (but with infinite ammo lacks the boltgun's daunting upkeep cost).

 

The free Stormtrooper Carapace armour they start with (one-and-a-half times better protection than the previous best starting armour from the initial Careers) weighs absurdly little (just over half what mere Guard flak armour weighs!), thus negating any game balance from a PC's carrying capacity. Apparently their armour is 'magic', too.

 

They get FOUR cheap Characteristic advances; every other Career is limited to three.

 

Add to that a Rank1 Skills and Talents selection that exceeds a full page (!) and I really don't see how anyone could argue that this Career (let's face it, that's what it really is, not just an Alternate Rank) isn't plainly broken.

 

The ultimate problem here is FFG's lax editorial standards. Their slipshod editing isn't limited to the innumerable typos that plague all WH40KRP books- it extends to content, with editors giving rubber-stamp approval to plainly broken (Book of Judgement features a 'magic shotgun' that does more damage than a freakin' boltgun! -And shields that add 4 points to existing armour!) or simply stupid crap (also from BoJ: Leatherwort- a magic Potion of Armor lifted directly from D&D!) that should never have been allowed to see the printed page.

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I unfortunately have to agree with that: not to mention that we haven't had another DH book in a long time, and they swapped the last one one out to Only War. 

 

Another problem is the publishing of the same content over and over and over and over and over and over again. The other day I was checking the Tome of Fate and saw the rules for Investigation from DH's Book of Judgement in there as well...

 

What first appears to be a loose/loose for FFG should be taken with a grain of salt. 

 

I don't think anyone is saying that FFG should STOP publishing things because its all going to be broken. No, just that they should be better careful about what they publish- make sure that it sort of fits into the line. Push comes to shove, if they want to include something thats rather interesting- no reason why they can't include it for more than one Class. 

 

The talent that fixes Tech-priest Fellowship and Interaction for example is CLEARLY in this book, and even though there's a full page on new Tech-priest talents and abilities (And ironically, Diplomacy for the rest), Tech-priests can't get that talent save by house-ruling....

Edited by Saldre

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I'm not contesting that the alternate rank is strong, very strong in fact. But you're seriously overstating how much of an unfair advantage it creates.

 

 

I double-checked to see if I was overstating Crimson Guard's 'overpoweredness', and noticed some things that I initially missed:

 

The free 'magic lasgun' they start with does damage comparable to a boltgun (but with infinite ammo lacks the boltgun's daunting upkeep cost).

It also has half the Penetration, inflicts Fatigue on the user on Jam results, and is the only range weapon the CG can use without spending exp on additional Weapon Training Talents.

 

By the way, did I mention the weapon is relatively cheap? Every tech priest can have it very easy. CG getting it even easier is hardly a problem.

 

The free Stormtrooper Carapace armour they start with (one-and-a-half times better protection than the previous best starting armour from the initial Careers) weighs absurdly little (just over half what mere Guard flak armour weighs!),

Two more points of armor and weighs less? The horror!

Seriously, though - by your logic, the corebook guardsman is completely overpowered compared to, say, scum.

 

 

 

thus negating any game balance from a PC's carrying capacity.

 

lol carrying capacity as a balancing factor for anything!

 

 

Apparently their armour is 'magic', too.

 

It's Lathe-Forged. The way it's represented is pretty mellow compared to the upgrade in Rogue Trader.

 

They get FOUR cheap Characteristic advances; every other Career is limited to three.

 

Yes, it's probably excessive. I think they should have the Int at medium cost.

 

Add to that a Rank1 Skills and Talents selection that exceeds a full page (!)

 

Which you still have to buy. Which are mostly badly overpriced compared to Rank 1 tables of corebook careers. Which mostly consist of Tech-Priest Talents you probably don't need.

 

and I really don't see how anyone could argue that this Career (let's face it, that's what it really is, not just an Alternate Rank)

 

I think the book is pretty open about it, so I'm not seeing the point of your revelatory tone.

 

isn't plainly broken.

 

It isn't. It's a bit overpowered - not in a game breaking way.

 

The ultimate problem here is FFG's lax editorial standards. Their slipshod editing isn't limited to the innumerable typos that plague all WH40KRP books- it extends to content, with editors giving rubber-stamp approval to plainly broken (Book of Judgement features a 'magic shotgun' that does more damage than a freakin' boltgun! -And shields that add 4 points to existing armour!) or simply stupid crap (also from BoJ: Leatherwort- a magic Potion of Armor lifted directly from D&D!) that should never have been allowed to see the printed page.

 

The actual problem here is that DH core is dated as ****, and the metagame of the 40k engine has progressed by a few light years ever since the game was first penned. Which is a real bummer when you're supposed to introduce new content while simultaneously working on much sleeker, better working systems where compared to DH, all the dials go up to eleven without the game grinding to a halt.

 

You can certainly see the few latest supplements as just a bunch of random overpowered **** that breaks the game. I prefer to see them as an attempt to bridge the gigantic gap between DH and other 40k games, a sneak-update to the core rules if you'd prefer.

Edited by Morangias

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The actual problem here is that DH core is dated as ****, and the metagame of the 40k engine has progressed by a few light years ever since the game was first penned. Which is a real bummer when you're supposed to introduce new content while simultaneously working on much sleeker, better working systems where compared to DH, all the dials go up to eleven without the game grinding to a halt.

 

You can certainly see the few latest supplements as just a bunch of random overpowered **** that breaks the game. I prefer to see them as an attempt to bridge the gigantic gap between DH and other 40k games, a sneak-update to the core rules if you'd prefer.

 

 

That would be a perfectly reasonable hypothesis, if the stuff we are complaining about made Dark Heresy more like Only War, but that's not the case. Weapon damage and armour values are pretty consistent between DH and OW; the principle differences between the systems are mechanical tweaks, not a significantly different power level- hence, what would be 'broken' for DH would also usually be 'broken' for OW. Shotguns do the same damage in good/new Only War as in old/bad Dark Heresy, flak armour has the same defensive value, and, although I don't have the OW Rulebook handy to double-check (I'm at work right now), I'm pretty sure 'stackable' armour does not feature in OW. So, the absurdly overpowered shotgun and stackable armours in Book of Judgement were not included to make Dark Heresy more like Only War. They were included because FFG needed to fill an Armoury section, and the freelancer they hired to do it found that all of the 'low-hanging fruit' had already been plucked. It is established 40K lore that Arbites wear carapace armour and wield combat shotguns loaded with Executioner rounds- all equipment that had already been detailed in previous books. So, the two easiest options for filling pages were naked Power-Creep (the absurd mega-shotgun), or swiping stuff from other RPGs- principally Dungeons & Dragons (Leatherwort...?). If an Editor worthy of the title had told said freelancer "This is crap- do better or we won't pay you", Book of Judgement and The Lathe Worlds might have sold well enough that DH supplements would still be coming out.

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