Ambush from the Plains/ Duplicate question

[Daenarys 9]

Can i please get clarification about the following :

 

I have in my discard pile a copy of Khal Drogo and likewise i have a copy of him in my hand ( the bouncing Drogo )

I play Ambush from the Plains to put Khal Drogo from my hand into play. I also have a 2nd copy of Ambush from the Plains.

 

1) Can i play my 2nd copy of Ambush from the Plains in order to put Khal Drogo from my discard pile as a duplicate of Khal Drogo in play ?

2) If above CAN happen then at the end of the phase can i discard a copy of Khal Drogo to stop it going back into my hand ( as per the card text on Ambush from the Plains )

 

thanks

[Sttyca 20]

Daenarys said:

Can i please get clarification about the following :

 

I have in my discard pile a copy of Khal Drogo and likewise i have a copy of him in my hand ( the bouncing Drogo )

I play Ambush from the Plains to put Khal Drogo from my hand into play. I also have a 2nd copy of Ambush from the Plains.

 

1) Can i play my 2nd copy of Ambush from the Plains in order to put Khal Drogo from my discard pile as a duplicate of Khal Drogo in play ?

2) If above CAN happen then at the end of the phase can i discard a copy of Khal Drogo to stop it going back into my hand ( as per the card text on Ambush from the Plains )

 

thanks

1) yes. This has been discussed on a couple of other threads that you can use this event to get a duplicate of a unique character in play out of the discard pile.

2) Unless there's a good argument otherwise, since the return to hand mechanic of the event doesn't say "cannot be saved," I don't see why this wouldn't work. Though, personally, I'm not sure why you would want to waste an AftP for this purpose if it's the jump-in after winning a challenge Drogo… seeing as you'll probably jump him in repeatedly throughout the game if things are going right.

[Ratatoskr 34]

Daenarys said:

Can i please get clarification about the following :

 

I have in my discard pile a copy of Khal Drogo and likewise i have a copy of him in my hand ( the bouncing Drogo )

I play Ambush from the Plains to put Khal Drogo from my hand into play. I also have a 2nd copy of Ambush from the Plains.

 

1) Can i play my 2nd copy of Ambush from the Plains in order to put Khal Drogo from my discard pile as a duplicate of Khal Drogo in play ?

2) If above CAN happen then at the end of the phase can i discard a copy of Khal Drogo to stop it going back into my hand ( as per the card text on Ambush from the Plains )

 

thanks

1) If you put a unique card into play via a card effect (any card effect, really, AftP is just one among many examples), and you already have a copy of that card in play, the second copy will attach to the first one as a duplicate.

2) Drogo goes back to hand at the end of the phase. You cannot trigger responses at the end of the phase (see FAQ 2.6, page 8). Using a duplicate to save a card is a save response, so you can't do that. In your scenario, Drogo would go back to hand, and the duplicate would get disvarded.

[Ratatoskr 34]

stormwolf27 said:

2) Unless there's a good argument otherwise, since the return to hand mechanic of the event doesn't say "cannot be saved," I don't see why this wouldn't work.

As I posted above, the good argument would be that End-of-phase Framework Action Windows are played without step 2 and 5, as per the FAQ. Vulgo: No responses, including save responses, at the end of the phase.

[Daenarys 9]

stormwolf27 said:

Daenarys said:

 

Can i please get clarification about the following :

 

I have in my discard pile a copy of Khal Drogo and likewise i have a copy of him in my hand ( the bouncing Drogo )

I play Ambush from the Plains to put Khal Drogo from my hand into play. I also have a 2nd copy of Ambush from the Plains.

 

1) Can i play my 2nd copy of Ambush from the Plains in order to put Khal Drogo from my discard pile as a duplicate of Khal Drogo in play ?

2) If above CAN happen then at the end of the phase can i discard a copy of Khal Drogo to stop it going back into my hand ( as per the card text on Ambush from the Plains )

 

thanks

 

 

1) yes. This has been discussed on a couple of other threads that you can use this event to get a duplicate of a unique character in play out of the discard pile.

2) Unless there's a good argument otherwise, since the return to hand mechanic of the event doesn't say "cannot be saved," I don't see why this wouldn't work. Though, personally, I'm not sure why you would want to waste an AftP for this purpose if it's the jump-in after winning a challenge Drogo… seeing as you'll probably jump him in repeatedly throughout the game if things are going right.

 

 

Thanks for the responses guys. A very specific scenario arose where i needed to have a character in play at the time to satisfy a military claim but i also wanted to ensure Khal went back into my hand. By having two AFTP this allowed me to do this. I wouldnt expect to see this again but the event prompted me to ask the questions.. Thanks again all

[LFenix 0]

Er… I think I asked this question myself some time ago and I got a different answer.

 

The thing was you COULD play the ambush to put a dupe into play, but since the character was not "in play" anymore, it did not get back to your hand (it is a dupe now, not a char). Maybe I got it wrong somewhere??

[ktom 598]

LFenix said:

The thing was you COULD play the ambush to put a dupe into play, but since the character was not "in play" anymore, it did not get back to your hand (it is a dupe now, not a char). Maybe I got it wrong somewhere??

You're not looking at the entire question above. Both the original and the dupe have potential "return to hand" effects on them.

In the question, the player puts CS-Drogo into play from his hand after winning a challenge. That action includes the requirement that Drogo is returned to hand at the end of the phase.

The same player then uses Ambush From the Plains to put a second copy of Drogo onto that first copy as a dupe. That action normally includes the requirement that the character be returned to hand at the end of the phase, but since it is a dupe at this point, not a character, that requirement will not be valid.

Now we're at the end of the phase. There is no "return to hand" effect on the dupe from Ambush From the Plains, so it's going to stay there. But there is a "return to hand" effect on the "first", non-dupe copy of Drogo. He has to be returned to hand! And the dupe cannot save him because there is no opportunity for saves in the "end of phase" window. So the "first", non-dupe copy of Drogo goes to your hand, and the dupe - which has no "return to hand" effect on it - is discarded.

[LFenix 0]

Arg, my bad. I forgot we were talking about Drogo, focused too much on the ambush ^^

 

Thanks for enlightening me ktom,

[Mitya 0]

I'll revive this topic a bit.

 

The same player then uses Ambush From the Plains to put a second copy of Drogo onto that first copy as a dupe. That action normally includes the requirement that the character be returned to hand at the end of the phase, but since it is a dupe at this point, not a character, that requirement will not be valid.

Now we're at the end of the phase. There is no "return to hand" effect on the dupe from Ambush From the Plains, so it's going to stay there.

Yesterday, I sent a question to FFG about Fiery Kiss and uniques/duplicates and the similar situation was ruled differently.

My Question was:
> 2. I have an unique character in play, and, as a result some card effect copy of this character in dead pile. May I use shadow event Fiery Kiss(Response: After Fiery Kiss comes out of Shadows, choose 1 non-Army Baratheon character in your dead pile and put it into play. That character gains vigilant until the end of the phase. At the end of the phase, discard the character if it is still in play.) to put forementioned unique character to play. If I may to do so, that exactly will happen?

 

Damon Stone's answer was:
You may use Fiery Kiss to put it into play. That copy of the character turns into a duplicate. At the end of the phase, the character is still in play, and is discarded. (The text does not refer to that copy of the character, but to that character, period. Also, as it is end of phase, and there are no responses after the end of the phase, you could not use the duplicate to save from the discard -- both the character and the dupe would be discarded.
 

Edited October 4, 2013 by Mitya

[radiskull 39]

That's a gross ruling from a technical standpoint. Now we're letting characters inherit conditions from things that put dupes into play?

[zarius 1]

Can you dupe anything in every moment of the game (except setup)?. Because:

 

In the FAQ flowchart in Marshalling says:

2) Character, Location, Duplicate, and Attachment cards can only be played during this player action segment.

 

Additionally, in the shadows section says:

Unique cards and shadows: 
A unique card cannot be brought out of Shadows if another copy of
that card is in its owner’s dead pile. If another copy of a unique card
that you own and control is in play, you still may bring the card out of
Shadows by paying its cost. However, the card immediately attaches to
its copy as a duplicate.

 

 

Also, this prevents you putting uniques into play if they're already in play (IMO the exception only allows you to play dupes in the 2 ways previously written (Marshalling and shadows)):

 

Unique cards

Some cards have a banner icon (*) next to their
title. Such cards are unique. Each player may
only have one copy of a unique card in play.
Thus, you cannot put into play or take control of
a unique card which you already own or control
(except for duplicates, see below).
You also may not play or take control of a unique
card if there is a copy of that card in your dead
pile, or if your opponent has taken control of
another copy of that unique card from you.

 

If you can play or put into play them in other phases/situations (like ambush from the plains), why is that?

Edited October 6, 2013 by zarius

[zarius 1]

Any answer?

[radiskull 39]

Any answer?

Hundreds.  Check the forums. (The interaction with the card "No Use For Grief" might be the best thing to search for.

[zarius 1]

I read them before asking the question, but none answer it.

[mdc273 29]

Can you dupe anything in every moment of the game (except setup)?. Because:

 

In the FAQ flowchart in Marshalling says:

2) Character, Location, Duplicate, and Attachment cards can only be played during this player action segment.

 

Additionally, in the shadows section says:

Unique cards and shadows: 

A unique card cannot be brought out of Shadows if another copy of

that card is in its owner’s dead pile. If another copy of a unique card

that you own and control is in play, you still may bring the card out of

Shadows by paying its cost. However, the card immediately attaches to

its copy as a duplicate.

 

 

Also, this prevents you putting uniques into play if they're already in play (IMO the exception only allows you to play dupes in the 2 ways previously written (Marshalling and shadows)):

 

Unique cards

Some cards have a banner icon (*) next to their

title. Such cards are unique. Each player may

only have one copy of a unique card in play.

Thus, you cannot put into play or take control of

a unique card which you already own or control

(except for duplicates, see below).

You also may not play or take control of a unique

card if there is a copy of that card in your dead

pile, or if your opponent has taken control of

another copy of that unique card from you.

 

If you can play or put into play them in other phases/situations (like ambush from the plains), why is that?

 

Sorry. I haven't been checking these forums for a while.

 

The answer is that there is no officially written down answer in the rules. It just isn't there. The concept of using Ambushed from the Plains (or any other put-into-play card) to bring a dupe into play is a carry-over from the CCG days that was apparently never formalized in the new rules or FAQ.

 

Unforunately, this means that you can not use the rules to prove this to any one. I can assure you that if you go to an official AGoT LCG tournament hosted by FFG that this will be how the situation is ruled. Ambush from the Plains will put a dupe into play as a dupe if the character is already in play.

 

I hope that helps answer your question.

 

Edit: Holy s%*&. Wtf is that Damon ruling? That is totally out of left field. There isn't any construct within the rules to justify that. I literally can't conceive of how to generalize that. It must be a one-off ruling for Fiery Kiss. Sorry, this is unrelated to your question.

Edited October 8, 2013 by mdc273

[Bomb 66]

That ruling on Fiery Kiss is pretty dumb.  That means you are discarding the character and it's dupe at the end of the phase just to give it vigilant.  What other effects are worded like this?

 

I feel like it's contradictory on past set precedents on these types of effects.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Bomb

[sWhiteboy 18]

Ambush and Fiery Kiss would work the same with that ruling.  Damon said nothing that would suggest otherwise.  He said that the text doesn't specify which copy of the character is discarded for Fiery Kiss.  As far as I can tell, Ambush's text doesn't specify either.

[Bomb 66]

This means that Catelyn Stark returns to your hand if she is already in play and you put a copy of her into play via triggering her ability.  This goes against the way it's worked for these types of effects for as long as I can remember.

[doulos2k 26]

So... because I was curious (and incredulous), I asked Damon to clarify (specifically outlining the community understanding of how this effect works). And he confirmed that this ruling applies to Ambush from the Plains as well as Fiery Kiss (and any lasting effect of this type). The effect, while used to bring a card into play that becomes a duplicate upon entering play, the lasting effect is looking for "the character" or "that character" and is referring to the specific character and not the piece of cardboard that originally came into play. So, while the dupe is the card that came into play, the character is still in play and the lasting effect would find that character and cause it to leave play with no save opportunity (due to there being no responses at end of phase).
 
So, he's holding strong on that interpretation and we'll have to adjust our understanding. I do understand the logic, however. But, it does mean that we now consider "character" a virtual entity regardless of which specific "card" was being used initially for said "character." At least, that's how I see it.

What this would allow is the interaction between the shadow hatchlings and their corresponding grown-up Dragons. If you retrieve a Hatchling with AFtP, then it would dupe a Dragon without causing the Dragon to leave play because "that character" (the Hatchling) is no longer in play.

Edited October 9, 2013 by doulos2k

[radiskull 39]

Thanks for clarifying. At least it's internally consistent reasoning.

[mdc273 29]

Odds on whether or not this actually makes it into the next FAQ? LoL.

 

This still is going to present problems. Cards are supposed to be self-referential. This says that cards coming into play and becoming dupes are an exception. It won't be a big problem, but I'm concerned this could have some bizarre implications in extreme circumstances. We'll see how it plays out.

[doulos2k 26]

No odds from me... but, I do agree that removing the explicit self-referential element where the effect refers to a specific piece of cardboard rather than (now) a virtual entity could have ramifications. I can't think of any at the moment, but that's not to say it won't create an odd interaction on some future edge case.

[agktmte 0]

How about if your opponent has the same character in play? Are all characters with that name removed?

[doulos2k 26]

I would think the argument would be that the entire effect is referring to the character you control - it still is "the character" or "that character." Considering the rules for uniques already take into account who controls them (since both players can play uniques of the same name) - the same would apply here.

[Slothgodfather 270]

Where does it say "that character you control" ?   

 

Just additional ramblings, what if the character (and the dupe - which is the real "that character" card) is put into the discard pile before the end of the phase.   If the lasting effect is targeting the entity of the target of the effect, does the lasting effect still apply?

 

 

I know, I'm stretching it...     Really I'm just bored waiting for the FAQ and am also frustrated by how this e-mail has now undone what was "common knowledge" within the community and that this is how rulings are handled in the first place.