Negotiations at the Great Sep…

[mdc273 29]

ktom said:

mdc273 said:

Okay, so how does triggering the effect in the used plots pile resolve succesfully? That plot wasn't just revealed. If I'm literally triggering its effect from the used plot pile, wouldn't it do nothing as it wasn't just revealed?

I know you've had trouble visualizing this concept before, but here it is:

When you reveal a plot card with the text "when revealed," the effect initiates because the play restriction "when revealed" is true. That's what passive effects do: they initiate when their timing play restricitions are met.

Where you seem to be getting confused on is that the plot effect does not initiate and then check the plot was just revealed. Rather, the plot initiates because "when revealed" is true, just like Golden Tooth Mines initiates because you revealed a plot card. And there is nothing in "when revealed" that requires the plot to be your revealed plot (other than the the plot text is only independently active when it is your revealed plot). 

So what is going on is that, rather than being initiated because "when revealed" is true, the plot initiates because City of Spiders tells you to. You do not "check" to see if it is the revealed plot because the "when revealed" timing play restriction on the plot in your used pile has been bypassed by the effect of City of Spiders.

Said another way, "when revealed" is the timing restriction that determines when the effect can initiate on its own. If it is initiated by another effect, you don't "retroactively" un-initiate the effect because the bypassed play restriction is not true.

What is the matching play restriction text on a card like Theon Greyjoy? "After you lose a challenge by 4 or more…" on Theon would be similar to "When Revealed," on a plot in-so-far as both are "initiation text"/"play restrictions" for a passive effect that succeeds them?

[ktom 598]

mdc273 said:

What is the matching play restriction text on a card like Theon Greyjoy? "After you lose a challenge by 4 or more…" on Theon would be similar to "When Revealed," on a plot in-so-far as both are "initiation text"/"play restrictions" for a passive effect that succeeds them?

Yes. The play restriction that tells you when to initiate the passive effect is what we're talking about here. That is what is being superceded by the "do it now" effect of City of Spiders.

[Rumbleweed 0]

Hello! I'd just like to clarify whether the player and the chosen opponent can choose to shuffle their hand outside of the plot phase.

For example, plot cards such as Summoning Season, Counting Favors, The Red Wedding, and Condemned by the Realm have text that, because they are preceeded by the word "then", take effect during the plot phase. However, there plot cards such as Mutual Blackmail, Mutual Enemies, and Doran's Scheme have text whose effects extend beyond the plot phase and noticeably lack the word "then" before it.

Would Negotiations at the Great Sept be in the first or second camp? If it's in the second camp, then Forgotten Plans would negate the ability outside of the plot phase, right? On the other hand, would The Art of Seduction make the effect usable over two turns?

[mdc273 29]

Rumbleweed said:

Hello! I'd just like to clarify whether the player and the chosen opponent can choose to shuffle their hand outside of the plot phase.

For example, plot cards such as Summoning Season, Counting Favors, The Red Wedding, and Condemned by the Realm have text that, because they are preceeded by the word "then", take effect during the plot phase. However, there plot cards such as Mutual Blackmail, Mutual Enemies, and Doran's Scheme have text whose effects extend beyond the plot phase and noticeably lack the word "then" before it.

Would Negotiations at the Great Sept be in the first or second camp? If it's in the second camp, then Forgotten Plans would negate the ability outside of the plot phase, right? On the other hand, would The Art of Seduction make the effect usable over two turns?

Negotiations at the Great Sept exclusivley resolves when triggered. The standard resolution will be during the plot phase and as such, you will only be able to shuffle hands then. There will be occasions (Bungled Orders) where it is revealed outside of the plot phase or triggered outside of the plot phase. You would also be able to shuffle then.

Or more simply

It does not give you the ability to shuffle your hand at any time, only when it is revealed. (with rare exceptions)