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Cymbel

Book of Judgement: Seen This Before

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Okay, so this talent takes a total of 500-600xp to get total, but if I am reading this right, it seems very overpowered.

The wording is essentially, for Investigation skills, you can substitute an Intelligence Test.

The thing is, THESE are all the Investigation skills…..

 

ChemUse

Evaluate

Inquiry

Interrogation

Common Lore: Adeptus Arbites, Machine Cult, Administratum, Ecclesiarchy, Imperial Creed, Imperial Guard, Imperium, Tech, Underworld, War

Forbidden Lore: Black Library, Cults, Daemonology, Heresy, Inquisition, Archeotech, Mutants, Ordos, Adeptus Mechanicus, Psykers, Warp, Xenos

Scholastic Lore: Beasts, Bureaucracy, Chymistry, Cryptology, Heraldry, Imperial Creed, Judgement, Legend, Numerology, Occult, Philosophy, Tactica Imperialis

Now, you may not be able to craft/use ChemUse with this talent, which cuts back on some of the abuse, but having the ability to use ALL the lores at base Int? This is almost ascension level and if your stats are right, you can take this as soon as you can afford 600xp for the three talents (Jaded, Total Recall and this one)

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Certainly, its a powerful talent, but is it any worse than RH's "Thy Name I Keep," and using that to get the True Savant boon? (treat all Lore skills as trained, and get a re-roll on lores that you are trained in). 400 xp, gain a few IP's/CP's. Obviously it has some very, very radical notions that go with it, but it does give you the boon with effectively no drawbacks (i.e. don't owe a daemon anything, although they may not like you very much).

The wording on the talent is interesting as well "skill test with the Investigation skill descriptor." If I was concerned about this talent, I would use that wording to imply that the types of actions you can take with skills (i.e. "skill tests") can have descriptors. I know theres no real basis for that in how skills are worded, but I think it would improve the balance of this talent. Then I would use this idea to limit the use of this talent to the investigation of crime scenes.

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With "Thy Name I Keep" that is a death sentence if ever found out, you have a Daemon who is out to get you most likely, your soul is damned, it can only be taken at character generation, the touch of chaos would leave some kind of mark, plus GMs often approve background packages. While this is just an advance, which, at least in my experience, you don't need to consult your GM to spend your XP.

Though both are powerful, this is the more easily obtained of the two and unlike a powerful daemon giving you power, this is just from investigation experience for crime scenes.

Could you elaborate on your interpretation? I don't follow it perfectly.

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I guess what I was trying to get at is that the wording on the talent implies that certain skill checks are "Investigation" and some are not (similar to how you identified Chem-Use for crafting to be a questionable use of this talent).

I would use that "Investigation" focus of the talent, and the fluff wording of it, to more or less be limited to the investigation of crime scenes. In other words if the PC was trying to roll say Common Lore(Imperial Creed) to determine the religious significance of why the victim has had his thumbs chopped off, but his arms are positioned to make the sign of the Aquilla, I would allow the use of this talent (its specifically being used to investigate a crime scene). If the PC was trying to roll Common Lore(Imperial Creed) to know the specific practices on this planet so as to better ingratiate themselves with the local religious leaders, I would be more leery (its not being used to examine a crime scene).

Essentially, the use of the skill is not "Investigation."

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I don't believe this Talent is supposed to work on Lore skills, because as the description says, you either know them or you don't. You have to be taught them yourself or learn them during the adventure. Presumably, buying them off your career tree means an appropriate instructor taught you, or you have access to books that other careers might be denied to (for instance, a Guardsman isn't expected to know much about Imperial Law, but an Adept or an Arbitrator would be.)

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The response from FFG

Me: If you take the talent "Seen this Before" from Book of Judgement, does that mean you can test at Intelligence for ALL of these?

ChemUse

Evaluate

Inquiry

Interrogation

Common Lore: Adeptus Arbites, Machine Cult, Administratum, Ecclesiarchy, Imperial Creed, Imperial Guard, Imperium, Tech, Underworld, War

Forbidden Lore: Black Library, Cults, Daemonology, Heresy, Inquisition, Archeotech, Mutants, Ordos, Adeptus Mechanicus, Psykers, Warp, Xenos

Scholastic Lore: Beasts, Bureaucracy, Chymistry, Cryptology, Heraldry, Imperial Creed, Judgement, Legend, Numerology, Occult, Philosophy, Tactica Imperialis

It seems a bit off if that is the case, way too powerful for the maximum cost to get it (600xp).

Was it meant to work like this?

FFG: Technically yes, but I see your point. See if it works better in your group to just limit it to Lore-related tests, as that seems more thematic for the talent.

Which has left me more confused…..

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Cymbel said:

The response from FFG

Me: If you take the talent "Seen this Before" from Book of Judgement, does that mean you can test at Intelligence for ALL of these?

ChemUse

Evaluate

Inquiry

Interrogation

Common Lore: Adeptus Arbites, Machine Cult, Administratum, Ecclesiarchy, Imperial Creed, Imperial Guard, Imperium, Tech, Underworld, War

Forbidden Lore: Black Library, Cults, Daemonology, Heresy, Inquisition, Archeotech, Mutants, Ordos, Adeptus Mechanicus, Psykers, Warp, Xenos

Scholastic Lore: Beasts, Bureaucracy, Chymistry, Cryptology, Heraldry, Imperial Creed, Judgement, Legend, Numerology, Occult, Philosophy, Tactica Imperialis

It seems a bit off if that is the case, way too powerful for the maximum cost to get it (600xp).

Was it meant to work like this?

FFG: Technically yes, but I see your point. See if it works better in your group to just limit it to Lore-related tests, as that seems more thematic for the talent.

Which has left me more confused…..

Without promising to add any great insight to your original query, I think their response does make sense to me.  The notion of "seen this before" seems to correlate especially well with Common Lore.  Not uncommon (no pun intended), for example, for a character to start with a Common Lore or three because of having simply been alive and experienced things - because of having seen certain things repeatedly before, something having been part of the environment they've been in. 

To my thinking Scholastic Lore is correlated poorly with this theme because Scholastic's "theme" is academic study - not simply repeated observation from continual exposure to something.  

Forbidden Lore, I believe, is somewhere in the muddled middle.  Certainly could have a significant aspect of research to it but if, for example, you were in a certain cult then I'd expect that PC/NPC to probably have Forbidden Lore (That Cult).

So would could limit that talent to just all the Common Lores.  If that seemed too limiting then perhaps make the Talent in question to include all the Common Lores and all the Forbidden Lores.  Just a thought based on FFG's response.

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Uhm… all of of the skills are intelligence test except for Inquiry and Interrogation that rolls of Fel and WP respectivly…

 

It changes two skills to roll of Int, not really that broken

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Hakaisha said:

Uhm… all of of the skills are intelligence test except for Inquiry and Interrogation that rolls of Fel and WP respectivly…

 

It changes two skills to roll of Int, not really that broken

The problem doesn't have to do with what stat it tests the skills on, but rather that it allows a PC to make tests on a fairly wide variety of skills, without having to buy the actual skill training.

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KommissarK said:

I guess what I was trying to get at is that the wording on the talent implies that certain skill checks are "Investigation" and some are not (similar to how you identified Chem-Use for crafting to be a questionable use of this talent).

This is how I would do it if I were gming. Perhaps with slightly more leniency. Removing some Forbidden Lores would make it a little more balanced, but I would keep Forbidden Lore (Cults) and Forbidden Lore (Heresy).

****. I really wanted to play a Verispex in a future DH campaign.

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In my opinion youve got to see the context the talent is written in when you decide what it can be used for. In the book it specifically say "The Adept has witnessed so many crime scenes that he begins to quickly identify." So using it outside of crime scene investigations or the likes shouldnt really be an option.

Also the information given should be given in the context of a crimescene or the likes.  For example If your players come across a corpse killed by an unknown weapon, your adept might be able to come to the conclusion that the murder was comitted by a person wielding an eldar needle gun,  by using intelligence as substitute for "forbidden lore Xenos" It should however not allow the adept to know the full specific of the eldar race.

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Reminds me of old school "Optional Rules" from a different setting -_-

As I read it, it sounds really like a thematic talent. Its ment to give the Adept a stab in the dark towards a otherwise potential pitfall towards a adventure. As a GM, I'd say play it with limited knowledge, as they are basing this on similar experiences, not nessecarily meaning it is exactly that. In other words, sort of give them a "Hunch" for lack of better descriptor right now :(

 

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The way I see It and read it is: You can substitue the characteristic test of any investigation skill by the intelligence characteristic.

 

So if you're character is asking question (inquiry) about a crime scene to witnesses, he can do his inquiry with his intel instead of his fellowship which is, for an adept, better. But if the character doesn't have Inquiry, it's not necessarily über, since it will be tested as basic. As you said, many of the investigation skills are already intel, so it doesn't affect many skills.

It gives an intel based adept, having 55 intelligence, use his Inquiry skill at 55 instead of his inquiry skill with a fellowship of 33 (for example). Which is good, but situational, and not affecting many skills.

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I think this talent is a result of something other posters have touched on: providing clues.

Here's the thing: Dark Heresy is an investigative game, and far to frequently in games of this sort, the players miss a vital clue, and the whole adventure comes to a screeching halt.  This is either because of a really bad roll at a bad time, or just not having the necessary skill.

This talent is intended to fix that. Here is how I would run this talent: when the player buys it, go along with it, then, in play, if the party has arrived at the aforementioned screeching halt, roll the dice behind the screen (and ignore the result), then give the players the clue they need, while telling them "Seen this before" is how s/he got it. Problem solved, and the adventure continues.

Which is, I think, the point of the talent. It seems like too often people are more interested in judging things as OverPowered, without thinking through whether it actually helps create a better game-play experience at the table.

And that is the point of the game, no?

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@sanguinemetaldawn: I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. If you are a good GM you would never let the entire game rest on a single dice roll, and even if that does happen well then you just put the clue some place else because that's what your job his. Could you imagine that if someone doesn't make that one roll then the game ends. Everyone just leaves because they can't figure something out and everyone involved just gives up, that would be horrible.

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Phi6891 said:

@sanguinemetaldawn: I'm going to have to disagree with you on that. If you are a good GM you would never let the entire game rest on a single dice roll, and even if that does happen well then you just put the clue some place else because that's what your job his.

And yet you'd be amazed at how often it happens.

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