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sageleader

Tourney rules - Sleeves & marking

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I noticed in the tournament rules that sleeves are required, which is great. However it doesn't say anything against someone using different matte sleeves for different factions within one deck. For example, it seems like according to the rules I could sleeve my Sith command and objective cards as red and my Imperial cards as black. That way when I draw or shuffle them I could know what faction is coming next.

It does say sleeves are used to prevent accusations or marking cards, but nowhere does it say that card marking is illegal. It seems someone could use  matte sleeves and just write on the back of them things like "darth vader" to denote which card it is.

I suspect this is a huge mistake in the rules, unless I am missing something somewhere.

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I dislike the aesthetics of solid backed sleeves, and use clear sleeves myself. While this works according to the letter of the law, it does seen to go counter to the spirit. I will be displeased if I have to get new sleeves to play in regionals.

Also, would any sleeves with art on the back be counter to the spirit of the rules? If that's the case, then no one can use those Star Wars specific sleeves that ffg has put out, which seems wrong.

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I believe that if you notice someone marking cards in any ways it should be brought to the attention of the TO, in which that person will be warned per the unsportsmanlike conduct and asked to replace marked sleeves (if it is a larger tournament, remember local tournaments you do not need sleeves).

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doctormungmung said:

I dislike the aesthetics of solid backed sleeves, and use clear sleeves myself. While this works according to the letter of the law, it does seen to go counter to the spirit. I will be displeased if I have to get new sleeves to play in regionals. Also, would any sleeves with art on the back be counter to the spirit of the rules? If that's the case, then no one can use those Star Wars specific sleeves that ffg has put out, which seems wrong.

 

I agree. I bought all the FFG sleeves, and I wouldn't be happy if they needed to be replaced to play in tournaments.

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doctormungmung said:

I dislike the aesthetics of solid backed sleeves, and use clear sleeves myself. While this works according to the letter of the law…

Actually, it doesn't:

 

"… players are required to use opaque protective sleeves for their decks."
 
So your sleeves have to be solid, not clear.
 
And since there's no further detail, I'd assume the Star Wars art sleeves would be valid.

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Actually it says they only have to be opaque if you have cards with aurebesh text in your deck. Where did you pull your quote from? Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong part of the document.

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Where does it say opaque? The rules state:

"For all officially sanctioned regional, national, invitational, and world championship events, players are required to use protective sleeves for their decks. For all local level events, card sleeves are not required, but players are encouraged to use sleeves both to protect their cards and to protect themselves against accusations of marking or manipulating decks by exploiting variance in the size, wear, or texture of their cards."

Clear sleeves are consistent with this. Furthermore, while the TO could deal with the situation where someone is marking their cards, it isn't technically against the rules or mentioned anywhere. Nowhere does it say that unsportsmanlike conduct is marking your cards. Under the things listed that are prohibited by the unsportsmanlike clause, it doesn't mention trying to mark your cards. It's obvious to all of us that it shouldn't be allowed, but it just seems like something that should be written in the rules.

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Since it doesn't say this in the rules, I can punch you in the face if I see marked cards showing to me that you are trying to cheat?

We don't have to be so legalistic about the rules that they have to list every possible infraction. We should all know that is morally wrong, so you shouldn't do it.

Of course I would never punch anyone in the face, I am a lover not a fighter…..

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I see your point, but card marking is alluded to in the rules (when it says sleeved cards prevent complaints about marking) so I thought it was weird it wasn't included as a rule. I'm not trying to be legalistic about something that's obvious.

It's also obvious that "stalling a game for time, abusing an infinite combo to unnecessarily lengthen the game, inappropriate behavior, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, scouting, predetermining the results of a match, … [and] premeditated collusion" are all unsportsmanlike, but they were specifically mentioned while card marking was not.

Maybe it's because I'm new to these types of tournaments, but marking seems to be a very big way that people can try to cheat as opposed to other infractions like punching people in the face, which probably are much more rare.

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I agree, and please understand I am just trying to have fun, I would never hit someone. I completely see what it is you are saying.

Having played card games for sometime I can remember a story back in 1998 in Oklahoma City at a SWCCG tournament where there were over 100 players and someone slightly bent back all his Obi-Wan character cards so he would know when they would come to the top of his deck to draw them.

Also one time in San Diego at ComicCon someone had rubbed off the foil part of the Upper Deck circle on all his opaque sleeves where Vader was.

So I have seen first hand as player and TO of people doing this and it was never in those rules that you couldn't mark cards, but we just knew it was wrong and addressed it accordingly.

I wouldn't have a problem if they clarified it so it would prevent people from thinking it was ok to mark their cards.

Funny thought, think of what they would do to you back in the 1800s if you marked your cards while playing poker. You would get shot. Heck, in some places today it would probably be the same outcome….

 

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It would also be kind of silly for opaque sleeves to be required to begin with, as currently the only way to recognize a neutral card you've not seen before as belonging to the light or dark side is by checking the color of the card back. The two sides' face templates are identical.

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Hi everyone,

Thanks for your patience as we considered how best to phrase the new tournament rule related to the presence of alternate art and Aurebesh text cards in the competitive environment. We apologize for making such a quick update to our intial tournament rules, but we thought it important to be as clear as possible regarding the sleeve requirement.

A final version has been posted on http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/opsupport. In addition we have added version numbers to the Tournament rules, and will keep them updated as they are edited in the future.

Thanks for playing, and wish you luck at this year's Regional season!

Best,

FFG Anton

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I'm not sure what's so absurd about this topic. I haven't played in any major tournaments before so I was just curious why card marking wasn't explicitly prohibited.

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sageleader said:

I'm not sure what's so absurd about this topic. I haven't played in any major tournaments before so I was just curious why card marking wasn't explicitly prohibited.

There are a great many things not defined in the rules that are clearly illegal.  You can't draw extra cards, even though the rules aren't explicit that you can't do that.  It is just common sense.  The same with card marking. The OP document can not and will not ever be able to go over every illegal situation.

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sageleader said:

I'm not sure what's so absurd about this topic. I haven't played in any major tournaments before so I was just curious why card marking wasn't explicitly prohibited.

 

The topic is not absurd, for me its what people are saying with no citation in the rules.  And in true internet fasion I will not give a citation either.  I will leave it to say that I believe that if you sleve your command deck in red for Sith and black for Imperial Navy you are marking your cards.  You are giving yourself the advantage of knowing beforehand whether or not you have a resource match.  So while it does not technically sleeves must be uniform, I would interpert uniformity to be in the "spirit" of the rule.

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flightmaster101 said:

 for me its what people are saying with no citation in the rules.  

 

You dont need a citation for common sense. 

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TGO said:

flightmaster101 said:

 

 for me its what people are saying with no citation in the rules.  

 

 

 

You dont need a citation for common sense. 

correct, but when stating or paraphrasing a rule you should cite it.

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Agree with TGO and JMCB, this thread is silly, and posts like this

sageleader said:

…but nowhere does it say that card marking is illegal. It seems someone could use  matte sleeves and just write on the back of them things like "darth vader" to denote which card it is.

are the reason why.  As someone who is TOing FFG events this year and has done so in the past, all I have to point out is the "etc" at the end of the list of unsportsmanlike conduct moves, and that "The TO, at his or her sole discretion, may penalize or remove players from the tournament for unsportsmanlike conduct."
I can also say that in past events I've participated in, TOs and organizers have required opaque sleeves, so even if you don't like opaque sleeves, you might want to have 2 decks worth (1 DS, 1 LS) of them handy just in case (or be prepared to have to buy them while at the event).

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As an extension:

Would having your objective and command decks in different styles of sleeves considered marking in the unsportsmanlike sense?  Specifically, I have my objective cards in art sleeves and my command cards in clear.  This is my first attempt at competitve play and don't want to have the surprise expense on tourney day.

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