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Beren Eoath

WFRP 3.5 or 4e - truth or rumour?

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One thing I find VERY frustrating is the amount of books released for Warhammer 40K. Warhammer 40K was always more popular than Warhammer Fantasy but It doesn't explain that FFG is developping much more products for 40K. Warhammer Fantasy was firmly established as a RPG before 40K and it needs to conquer again its rightful place. I begin to wonder if Warhammer 3 would have sold as well as Warhammer 40K RPG if FFG would have stuck to the old system… I have been playing to Warhammer since 1990 and a lot of my friends  turned to 40K (or kept playing to the second edition) when the third edition was released. Personally, I bought everything for this 3rd edition, hoping that the game will enter into a new era but as time goes on, I would love to see a 4rth edition and several books exactly like the 40K  RPG universe. I think this would make a lot of Warhammer players go back to the Fantasy Universe and buy 40K and Fantasy products. 

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Hauer Glaeken said:

One thing I find VERY frustrating is the amount of books released for Warhammer 40K. Warhammer 40K was always more popular than Warhammer Fantasy but It doesn't explain that FFG is developping much more products for 40K.

The explanation is simple: demand. FFG release more books for the 40k lines because there is more demand for them.

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macd21 said:

Hauer Glaeken said:

One thing I find VERY frustrating is the amount of books released for Warhammer 40K. Warhammer 40K was always more popular than Warhammer Fantasy but It doesn't explain that FFG is developping much more products for 40K

 

The explanation is simple: demand. FFG release more books for the 40k lines because there is more demand for them.

There is also the point that the 40K line is totally new  (as an RPG). No books with background for the game where ever published. All you could find in the stores containing some background where the army books or other rule books for parallel games like Space Hulk, well Warhammer 40K novels as well. In that sense, Warhammer 3 had a much difficult job since it was not a new product. It comes after two successful editions of the game with huge amounts of backgrounds. With this panorama FFG had in front a difficult job. While they succeed in creating a new fresh system, name the qustom narrative dice, they fail miserably somewhere else.

In my opinion they did a bad job by splitting the product the way they did. In my opinion the Core box should contain all rules (e.g. rules find in signs of faith, winds of magic, lure of power and Omens of war). By putting all the "already existing material" gods, collage of magic…in the core box, they would have had ahead new and vrigin ground to conquer where other editions have not been before. Elves, Tilea, Estalia, Arabia… Other editions of the game have been very Empire centered. In this one, since the PC are so **** heroic (sorry I had to say it), it was a great oportunitu to expand a bit the boundaries of the setting. This for sure would have catched the attention of 1st and 2nd edition fans.

Additionally, FFG did some other bad jobs. Supplements like the Black fire pass should have contained more Inventions and more Runes; it seems that the guys at FFG are lazy at doing their job, let each fan finish the job as he/she sees it suit. The creature guide has been also a big inflection point for me, I haven't seem such a poor product for an RPG in ages.

 

Cheers,

Yepes

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Yepesnopes said:

In my opinion they did a bad job by splitting the product the way they did. In my opinion the Core box should contain all rules (e.g. rules find in signs of faith, winds of magic, lure of power and Omens of war). By putting all the "already existing material" gods, collage of magic…in the core box, they would have had ahead new and vrigin ground to conquer where other editions have not been before. Elves, Tilea, Estalia, Arabia… Other editions of the game have been very Empire centered. In this one, since the PC are so **** heroic (sorry I had to say it), it was a great oportunitu to expand a bit the boundaries of the setting. This for sure would have catched the attention of 1st and 2nd edition fans.

There's a reason why that virgin territory wasn't explored much in earlier editions. It's niche. Ulthuan, Tilea, Estalia, Arabia - these are fringe areas that are of less interest to the fanbase than the core of the setting, the Empire. They weren't dealt with before because there wasn't enough demand.

Are there people interested in those areas? Certainly. But not enough to justify making any of them the core of your game.

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Not enough demand? Did they a market study to pull out a 3rd edition? There was demand for that? How do they scan the market?

Come on!

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macd21 said:

Hauer Glaeken said:

 

One thing I find VERY frustrating is the amount of books released for Warhammer 40K. Warhammer 40K was always more popular than Warhammer Fantasy but It doesn't explain that FFG is developping much more products for 40K.

 

 

The explanation is simple: demand. FFG release more books for the 40k lines because there is more demand for them.

I agree but offer creates demand. Warhammer Fantasy RPG is overshadowed by 40K because a lot of players turned their back to the RPG because all these cards and tokens are not so "gamer friendly" which is a shame because the scenarios and background are top notch in the the third edition. May be It's time to move forward and to stick to the 40K system and see what happens. I am pretty sure that it will boost the sells. 

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There are a lot of because in my previous sentence, forgive me. ^^ And concerning Ulthuan, Tilea and so on… Well, if the fluff and the background are great to read, theses areas will become popular. For Sigmar's sake, The High Elves are widely popular on tabletops, on Warhammer Online (actually were…) and I don't see why they would not interest RPG gamers. 

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Yepesnopes said:

Not enough demand? Did they a market study to pull out a 3rd edition? There was demand for that? How do they scan the market?

Come on!

They knew how much demand there was for continued 2nd edition products… which wasn't much. So they tried something new. They scan the market by looking at sales figures and feedback from distributors and retailers.

Hauer Glaeken said:

I agree but offer creates demand. Warhammer Fantasy RPG is overshadowed by 40K because a lot of players turned their back to the RPG because all these cards and tokens are not so "gamer friendly" which is a shame because the scenarios and background are top notch in the the third edition. May be It's time to move forward and to stick to the 40K system and see what happens. I am pretty sure that it will boost the sells. 

Sure, that may have been a factor. Alternatively the WF RPG is overshadowed by the 40k games because 40k is simply the more popular setting.

Hauer Glaeken said:

There are a lot of because in my previous sentence, forgive me. ^^ And concerning Ulthuan, Tilea and so on… Well, if the fluff and the background are great to read, theses areas will become popular. For Sigmar's sake, The High Elves are widely popular on tabletops, on Warhammer Online (actually were…) and I don't see why they would not interest RPG gamers. 

Sure, they'll interest RPG gamers. Yes, they're relatively popular. And there's almost certainly enough interest to justify a supplement for the Elves (less so for Tilea etc). But moreso than the Empire? Had they released Ulthuan as the 'starting' setting I think you would have more complaints from players of older editions than there were over the cards.

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macd21 said:

Yepesnopes said:

 

Not enough demand? Did they a market study to pull out a 3rd edition? There was demand for that? How do they scan the market?

Come on!

 

They knew how much demand there was for continued 2nd edition products… which wasn't much. So they tried something new. They scan the market by looking at sales figures and feedback from distributors and retailers.

older editions than there were over the cards.

I guess that the guy /team that does the market surveillance for the Warhammer line is the same that has decided that this line does not need to release more dice packs.

I know that you have worked for them, and probably you know more about the internal kitchen in FFG than I do. Nontheless, as a customer and long time fan of the warhammer fantasy line I firmly belive that they have followed a poor strategy with this line.

Cheers,

Yepes

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Yepesnopes said:

I guess that the guy /team that does the market surveillance for the Warhammer line is the same that has decided that this line does not need to release more dice packs.

Do you really think they believe that "this line does not need to release more dice packs"? They would love to release more dice packs, have dice packs available in every game store, from Amazon etc. But whether or not they produce more dice packs isn't really up to them, it's up to the distributors. There isn't enough demand at present for them to justify another run of the dice.

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Mad I think you're wrong there. One of the main issues that FFG had a the beginning of the 3rd ed run was that the dice were of a very poor quality and so new ones were printed and added to some of the core boxes. Now if FFG is swapping printers for the dice this could very easily be a problem because of the mould, it would cost more to make than all of the dice printed in it afterwards put together and a fight over ownership with the printers could be quite nasty.

Now I'm not saying that it's like this, I'm not saying that I have information from inside FFG or anything, I'm just saying that it's very possible and and can we please put this topic to bed now, it's doing more harm than good.

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macd21 said:

Do you really think they believe that "this line does not need to release more dice packs"? They would love to release more dice packs, have dice packs available in every game store, from Amazon etc. But whether or not they produce more dice packs isn't really up to them, it's up to the distributors. There isn't enough demand at present for them to justify another run of the dice.

 

Come on Mac! Are we discussing what they believe? or are we discussing what they do /did? They can be excellent people, friendly or whatever, but they are running a business and we are the customers.
 
If it is not up to them if more dice are printed or not, the business have run out of their hands, they have done a bad job. Things like this happen everyday in business, but it is also true that with better planning they can be avoided.
 
Seeing how the Star Wars line is being directed, looks like they have changed a few things (that some of us think they were poorly managed) as compared to what they did with Warhammer 3. We will see how EotE sells and if they have learnt from their past errors.
 
Cheers,
Yepes

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macd21 said:

 

 

Sure, that may have been a factor. Alternatively the WF RPG is overshadowed by the 40k games because 40k is simply the more popular setting.

 

 

40K is more popular, that's a fact but not so popular that for one book for Warhammer Fantasy, you got 5 books for 40K ! There are much more to read in 40K sourcebooks because they rely before all things on fluff, on background without minding about some cards or tokens. This is much more gamer friendly… And instructive. Unfortunately, Warhammer 3rd edition doesn't sell well in its current state. Maybe It's time to change something and go back to the basics. Books with much more containts, a paper and a pen ? I am pretty sure that some players would appreciate. 

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Yepesnopes said:

If it is not up to them if more dice are printed or not, the business have run out of their hands, they have done a bad job.

Umm, no. This is how the RPG  industry works. Companies produce product based on demand. They don't simply decide to print X number of books, they go to their distributors and find out how many copies they will want then order a print run based on that number. They do not simply decide to release a new product and hope people will buy it.

I mean seriously, of course FFG want to sell more dice. It's illogical to think they wouldn't - it means more money in their pockets. But the demand just isn't there.

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Hauer Glaeken said:

Unfortunately, Warhammer 3rd edition doesn't sell well in its current state. Maybe It's time to change something and go back to the basics. Books with much more containts, a paper and a pen ? I am pretty sure that some players would appreciate. 

I think You coudl be right. And maybe even some players from 1st & 2nd edition would come back to the game. I wish that WFRP would come back to the basics like book, pen & paper and some custom dice.

I sure they will not make the same mistakes with SW EotE then they did with WFRP 3e.  I just would wish for some good Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay , 3 or higher edition, from FFG. They games always look great and I sure that the new/upgraded  edition could look even better then 3e.

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Let's see if I get this right, it looks like we are rotating around the same point.

I said FFG did a bad approach to the business by splitting the core product in different boxes, and by putting energy in redoing things that were already covered in previous editions, instead of expanding to new horizons within the warhammer fantasy setting.

Then you said that it was because there was no market for all this other new horizons.

Then I replaied that if they would have done a market inspeciton may be they would have seen that a 3rd edition was not needed.

But you said no, that they indeed scanned the market and a 3rd edition was better than keeping with a 2nd edition.

So, following you, they did market surveillance. Then they planned to develop the line, which includes custom dice. But the dice run out of stock. In between other things people find hard to get into this edition because it is expensive, but also because there is the constant rumor that no dice are beign produced.

Then you say that FFG want to print more dice, but they cannot because there is no demand for them.

So, there is no demand for the dice which are needed to play the game, but there was a demmand for a 3rd edition of the game? Is this not a bit contradicotry?

In my opinion, something went wrong in the planning and /or with the execution of the plan. It may be that there was indeed market for a 3rd edition, but obviously the 3rd edition didn't meet the expectation of many (although I have to say it has a few very faithfull fans) players and GMs. Why? Well, many of the answers to the "why" can be found in this same forums, and the designers took good note of it, we only need to take a look to the new Star Wars game. What have they kept? The (narrative, custom, special etc) dice system. What have they have kick out? All the rest! All the boardgame components wih stupid mechanics that interfere with a good roleplaying.

 

Cheers,

Yepes 

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Yepesnopes said:

Let's see if I get this right, it looks like we are rotating around the same point.

I said FFG did a bad approach to the business by splitting the core product in different boxes, and by putting energy in redoing things that were already covered in previous editions, instead of expanding to new horizons within the warhammer fantasy setting.

Then you said that it was because there was no market for all this other new horizons.

Correct.

Yepesnopes said:

Then I replaied that if they would have done a market inspeciton may be they would have seen that a 3rd edition was not needed.

But you said no, that they indeed scanned the market and a 3rd edition was better than keeping with a 2nd edition.

No, I said that they knew that keeping with 2nd edition was a waste of time due to a lack of sales. A 3rd edition was needed. It didn't necessarily need to be the 3rd edition we got, but for various reasons it's the one they decided to go with.

Yepesnopes said:

So, following you, they did market surveillance. Then they planned to develop the line, which includes custom dice. But the dice run out of stock. In between other things people find hard to get into this edition because it is expensive, but also because there is the constant rumor that no dice are beign produced.

Then you say that FFG want to print more dice, but they cannot because there is no demand for them.

So, there is no demand for the dice which are needed to play the game, but there was a demmand for a 3rd edition of the game? Is this not a bit contradicotry?

Not exactly. They did some 'market surveillance' (not entirely sure what you mean by that, but I suppose the term will do), which indicated that there would be some interest in the game. And there was. WFRP 3's sales in the first year were apparently very high, being one of the best sellers in the RPG market. After that sales seem to have dropped a lot.

Yepesnopes said:

In my opinion, something went wrong in the planning and /or with the execution of the plan. It may be that there was indeed market for a 3rd edition, but obviously the 3rd edition didn't meet the expectation of many (although I have to say it has a few very faithfull fans) players and GMs. Why? Well, many of the answers to the "why" can be found in this same forums, and the designers took good note of it, we only need to take a look to the new Star Wars game. What have they kept? The (narrative, custom, special etc) dice system. What have they have kick out? All the rest! All the boardgame components wih stupid mechanics that interfere with a good roleplaying.

That's quite possibly correct (though 'stupid mechanics that interfere with good roleplaying' is nonsense). While I like what the cards do for the game plenty of people are put off by them. And reception to the SW game seems good (with the exception of the "where's-the-Jedi?" crowd).

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I think there are enough people wanting dice that a small batch crowdfunded through Kickstarter, Indiegogo or  something else would be an option to look into. You wouldn't have commit any money unless you achieved a specific goal and you'd get a good idea of how many people wanted dice, regardless of project sucess. I would seem a win-win. Just an idea.

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macd21 said:

That's quite possibly correct (though 'stupid mechanics that interfere with good roleplaying' is nonsense). While I like what the cards do for the game plenty of people are put off by them. And reception to the SW game seems good (with the exception of the "where's-the-Jedi?" crowd).

Since I feel we discussed the subject long enough, I would settle the discussion here. Nonetheless, I will briefly explain you from my point of view why I used the terms "stupid" and "interfere with good role play", not to discuss about it, but so you can see what I think, even if you think I am wrong.

I find mechanics like "soketing talents" and "action recharche times" stupid in a RPG context. Both beign very boardgame /PC game in origin and having few place in a rpg. My character advances in experience and all of a sudden he cannot use a talent he learnt…I block with my shield this round but I have to wait one round to block again with my shield, really?

I find action cards interfering with good role play. At the begining of playing this game, I had to clarify several times to players that not having the action card "grapple" dos not mean you cannot try to stop a running thief; or not having the action card Flirt, does not mean that you cannot role play a situation where you flirt with the opposite sex and then roll for charm; or not having the action card Inspiring Words does not mean you cannot try to rally your comrades with a leadership roll and a nice speech. I admit that this is not an issue anymore, since it has been understood that action cards are not a limiting component. But oh boy, I am worried for all new players and GMs that start their rpg experience with warhammer 3. I am afraid for those people, the action cards concept might be too influential for future "more role play driven" rpgs where all you have is just your imagination.

Cheers,

Yepes

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Yes, but now JL is back but not on WFRP, he was one of the designers for SW EotE and looking at what SW is I must say he has done some good work there. SW EotE looks like a product that has learned from WFRP 3e mistakes. So maybe someone, like JL for example - he is good at it, would desingn a new WFRP that is witghout all the mistakes of 3e. Sometimes, I think, it would be better to go back a few steps to old school roleplaying. The game  should be more RPG then card/boardgame. I'm perfectly sure that when W40K RPGs would look like WFRP thaen they would not be selling that well. RPG should be RPG in more classical aproach so books+dice+pen+character sheets, that's all that in the past we ever needed and it should stay this way. The biggest mistake was not to include in the core set all that we got later in Signs of Faith and Winds of Magic. Much material was lost in this edition especialy many thing about the Old World and the Empire.

Don't get me wrong I love FFG games but I would still want that FFG would give WFRP some more attention. The universe has potential and it should get a good designed game. I just hope to see WFRP made for FFG, more fluff books  or/and a new edition would be really apriciated. And the designer should be someone so enthusiastic as JL was.  A new edition should be more like SW RPGs so based on WFRPe but withourt cards and anything else that make this game more Boardgame then RPG. I will keep my fingers crossed for something about  WFRP from FFG.

Cheers

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The problem started with the playtesting of the Core set. I don't think they really considered PC's beyond Ranks 1 or 2. The Talent system and socketing becomes silly after rank 1. Who is going to buy three talent cards in their first career after perhaps buying three talent cards at creation when there are only three sockets on the character sheet and one or perhaps two usable ones on the party sheet. Talents would have to have all been as powerful as the action card Troll Feller Strike for that to work.

I agree with Macd that FFG probably decided that a 3rd edition was necessary for revenue to be where they needed it to be. However although I like the Action cards, there are too many of them. Whatever the reason for having no dice packs, not having them is a problem. Unfortunately it suggests that WFRP is very low on their list of priorities and / or they are either going to let it slowly diie or replace it with another edition. Unfortunately the platitudes from the Customer Relations department are treated with all the skepticism we quite rightly give to politicians. Really what is needed here is some real honesty from FFG as to the state of the system.

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khaali said:

Yepesnopes said:

In my opinion, something went wrong in the planning and /or with the execution of the plan.

 

The illness of the lead designer.

http://rpggeek.com/article/11545731#11545731

 

Yes, this indeed was a big misfortune for Jay.

Nonetheless, seeing how well is SW EotE doing, I am happy for him and his new baby. In EotE he is one of the designers, not the lead developer as in Warhammer 3.

As a side note, I think Jay is running some other more personal projects. Looks like he is back to work at full power.

Cheers,

Yepes

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I think that SW RPGs is showing FFG the new way of doing RPGs. It looks like they have learned form they mistakes (mostly from WFRP 3e) and now going in the right direction. EotE is doing well, and the Begginers Game was a great way to introduce players to the new product. I hope that FFG will do the same for WFRP.

In WFRP there are to many Taletns (when players will use max 3 of them), to many Action cards and to many tokens. There's to many pieces that are really not needed for a good RPG. The problem is not only in numer of pieces but also in storege of them, and that they are not cheap in production. A book is much easier to make and can be done at one pleace wich lowers the costs. Many players from previous edition od WFRP did not bought this game becouse of the tokens, cards and a lot of boardgame stuff that they don't need to play a good session, they just need a book + diece + pen & paper. Many of them would be interested in WFRP if it would come back to more classical approach to the game. The sales of W40k rpgs and the interest of people in SW EotE  & Begginers Game show that people what to play RPGs but more old school. So maybe FFG should consider redesigning the game and making a new edition.

I'm sure that everyone of us would be more calm knowing what's FFG planing with WFRP.

Cheers

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SHazle said:

I think there are enough people wanting dice that a small batch crowdfunded through Kickstarter, Indiegogo or  something else would be an option to look into. You wouldn't have commit any money unless you achieved a specific goal and you'd get a good idea of how many people wanted dice, regardless of project sucess. I would seem a win-win. Just an idea.

Yeah that'd be nice. Dunno if they'd go for it though. Presumably the issue is that the minimum amount required for a run of dice is quite high. This means that the kickstarter would have to have a high goal that might not get achieved. If they feel demand is low then they may not be willing to put up a kickstarter that they think has a good chance of failing.

And the problem is that demand is assuredly low. For all the noise here about people wanting dice, the overall number isn't going to be high for the simple reason that most people who need the dice already have them. Even if there's a massive community of WFRP 3 fanboys out there it doesn't mean that there's a market for the dice. I'm a big WFRP 3 fan, but I'm never going to buy another dice set, I've got plenty, as do some of my players.

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