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YuriPRIME

Couple questions in regard to Vehicles, Leman Russ Tank and Battle Cannon ammo

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Ok, so here it goes. I am having a campaign going on with group of players interrested in Only War, and they seem verry tempted with playing Vehicle based campaign. They love IG, they adore Leman Russ Battle Tank as a theme so I want to run an adventure tank-oriented… Kelly's Heroes style, if you know what I mean. But I have some problems in regard to ammo caps.

How does it work in Leman Russ, cause the way I see it literarly - as defined by standard weapon stat-block is that Battle Cannon fires a round in single fire mode and it has a "Clip" of 12 rounds. Reload time 3 Full actions. Does it mean Leman Russ has some kind of internal magazine and can fire one shot every turn and once it's out of it's "clip" people inside have to reload? (The whole CLIP of 120mm shells in 3 full actions)

 

Or is it that Leman Russ takes 12 rounds of Battle Cannon ammo as a standard "kit" and between each shot it takes 3 full actions to reload?

I know a stat block says it  as it is, but it does sound a bit weird, so just wanted to double check (just in case)

And second, or more important question is: how much ammo a Leman Russ should take as standard? Just one clip of each sort as stated in stat blocks? According to lore this vehicle takes at least 40 rounds of ammo for it's main armament, so should they get like 4 clips 12 rounds each? Or do they get 12 rounds and if they want more they ought to go through standard logisitics tests?

Just some issues I wanted to have cleared before playing the game.

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It works as any other weapon would, so according to the stats, it has a clip of 12, and after you fire those 12, it'd take 3 turns to reload. However, you might want to change that, as some others have, for whatever reasons. Having it reload for 3 turns after each shot would make it about 6-12 seconds between each shot, which wouldn't be entirely bad - it'd allow for infantry to do their thing too without always being destroyed.

As for how much ammo they carry total, nothing is set in stone in the game, so it's pretty much up to you. Anything between 20-40 would fit, since most modern tanks usually carry around 40-50 shells, and the Imperium doesn't really have tanks as efficient as modern day armoured vehicles.

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You have to remeber that the battle cannon is basically a scaled up Auto-Cannon, so having a clip (ie an autoloader) makes sense, that being said it does mean that if the loader position is taken up by a PC then they have little to do

having a single clip with a 3 round reload does make the tanks somewhat funner as instead of having an immortal tank that kills everything else, bar other tanks (becasue its really hard to kill tanks, even chimeas, in only war) you now have an immortal tank that must place its shots and position itself for the maximum effect creating a more thematic effect

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Yep, it functions just like any other weapon. You get 12 shots (Clip: 12), you can fire one per round (RoF: S/-/-) and when you’ve used them all it takes 3 rounds to reload a new ‘clip’ of 12 (Rld: 3Full).

The matter of how many such ‘clips’ your tank can carry is… well… em… well… I honestly can’t think of a polite way to say it. It’s a stupid oversight in the design and writing of the game. I’ll leave it at that rather than go into a full-blown rant.

A related point of interest: Page 193 says of the Artillery ammunition (which are to be used for all Vehicle-class cannons): “Individual rounds weigh at least twenty kilograms and often substantially more than that.” So, that clip of 12 weighs at least 240kg. The crew of the Leman Russ includes 1 Loader: that poor guy has to load that 240kg(min) clip all by himself. No wonder it takes him 15 seconds ROFL.

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I'm really hoping they release a FAQ/Errata soon as vehicles as they stand are really 'meh'.

Tanks need new rules for ordnance weapons - Reload should be how long between shots, sort of like the recharge quality but for ordnance weapons, and magazine should be how many total rounds are carried in the vehicle with any re-arming needing to be done narratively between combats. The ordnance category of weapons also needs a specific anti-vehicle trait to help take out other vehicles, something like 'Ordnance - when fired at a vehicle and a hit is scored with at 3 degrees of success then double Penetration."

It would make vehicles much more tactical rather than the current "hurr-durr i'ma firing mah cannon all the time but cant hurt other vehicles!".

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I think tank on tank combat might be best improved by adding the Razor Sharp trait to the Anti-Tank artillery shells. Also, Indirect should gain the trait "Plunging Fire" - 3+ DoS and the shot hits the Top (AP = Rear) of the target vehicle.

As for the tank's ammo count, I'm torn; I like the idea of the Clip Size being the nomber of 'ready use' shells kept in the turret, allowing the main gun to be fired every round (the shells are big and heavy, but the gun should still load faster than a flintlock pistol), while shells stored in the hull magazine are used to top up as a 3 Full extended action. However, this ties down the Loader Comrade to doing nothing but his job description; no Comrade Orders or Operator special abilities seeing use at all. Haven't yet decided how to resolve this without adding free comrades (Squad I'll be GMing an Armour Reg for = Operator, Commissar & Stormtrooper)

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I don't play the wargame, or have any 40K products outside of the RPGs, so talking about Codexes and things like that means nothing to me. 

I quite like this wiki, and I use it for reference and reading about stuff:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warhammer_40k_Wiki

The entry they have for the Leman Russ tank…

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Leman_Russ_Tank

..says that it carries 40 shots for its main weapon. So, in the lack of any other authority stating otherwise, I'll be increasing this to 48 and ruling that in my game of Only War the Leman Russ carries 4 of those 12 shot 'clips' (rather than rounding down to 38 for 3 'clips').

While you have shots remaining in the loaded clip, you can fire once per round (RoF: S/-/-), but once it's empty you need 3 rounds to load the next 'clip' (Rld: 3 Full).

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Savage said:

I don't play the wargame, or have any 40K products outside of the RPGs, so talking about Codexes and things like that means nothing to me. 

I quite like this wiki, and I use it for reference and reading about stuff:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warhammer_40k_Wiki

The entry they have for the Leman Russ tank…

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Leman_Russ_Tank

..says that it carries 40 shots for its main weapon. So, in the lack of any other authority stating otherwise, I'll be increasing this to 48 and ruling that in my game of Only War the Leman Russ carries 4 of those 12 shot 'clips' (rather than rounding down to 38 for 3 'clips').

While you have shots remaining in the loaded clip, you can fire once per round (RoF: S/-/-), but once it's empty you need 3 rounds to load the next 'clip' (Rld: 3 Full).

I don't have a book to hand to check how long a combat round is meant to be but if it is anything like other RPGs itll be around 5 to 6 seconds (for a total of either 6 or 5 rounds per minute).

Looking at the rate of fire on modern day main battle tanks it varies from 3 to 6 shots per minute.

From this we then need to define whether the Leman russ is meant to be a main battle tank or more of a heavy tank. Whilst the setting has the demolisher siege tank and innumerable variants, they all have the same chassis so its hard to tell exactly the intentions.

As such id suggest that the leman Russ have it's clip reduced to 1 and its reload reduced to 1 Full, its ROF left at S/-/- and have a seperate trait called Magazine, which is how many rounds of ammo the vehicle can carry - lets go with 48 as mentioned. This then means that the Leman russ is still firing every turn but it can only do so for 8 or so minutes, which sounds alright to me.

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Running a game right now with players in an armoured company I do like the way the combat works at this time.  In battles we have played tanks got over 12 rounds of use for the main battle cannon before the load has to desperately hurry over the 3 round as they put the next clip in.  I think the idea of having the 12 shots then have 3 turns for reloading works well and shows off the style of how the Leman Russ would work in combat over the Basilisk, which seems to function more like breech loaded artillery piece where the crew have to empty spent shell and reload by hand the next one.  That makes sense with the game rule of having 1 clip and 1 full turn to reload so you fire only every other turn.  Also looking at some of the more ramshackle Ork tanks they also don’t have a clip system which I also think works with the fluff on how Ork tech works.

For the total ammo size also read that the Leman Russ would carry a total of 40 rounds for its main cannon, leaving 3 clips of 12 to be 36 with another 4 that where stated could be used for special rounds (Anti-Tank, Flare, Smoke, etc) that a tank may need to use during the battle.  If the players knows the encounter could be a long one this promotes some ammo conservation or tactical thinking in when the best time to fire the cannon is and if the tank can get back to a resupply point to reload on ammo.

The players in my group now have mostly been fighting Orks, which they have found out for their lighter units is great to take out.  Even if they don't take it out in one shot the open topped nature of the ork units means that every unit is hit by an area of effect weapon.  So even if the War Truck survives the tank shot the damage from the battle cannon should be enough to kill every Ork riding that War Truck.  They have also started to see that if they are facing tanks with armor more closely equal to their own level then they need to change their tactics or use different weapons to allow them to take out, one easy way is to try and get side or rear shots on the enemy unit so they hit lower level armour.  They have also seen that the Battle Cannon is not the best anti-tank weapon, while it is great vs infantry and lighter tanks it does have issues with tanks as armoured as a Leman Russ.  For those kinds of targets they have already started coming up with ideas to try and get some anti-tank shells they could have or placing a Lascannon on the hull of the tank.  Other things that could help them is the use of a Vanquisher Tank, with its higher pen and accurate rules it really is a much more anti-tank weapon then the Battle Cannon is.

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