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vermillian2

This game IS AFFORDABLE

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Hi there,

 

I've found this thread really interesting so far.  I recently started playing AGoT around christmas time last year (2012).  I enjoyed the books and some freinds i was staying with also enjoyed them so i bought a core set and had a few games.  Then i found that I enjoyed the game system, out of the box is seemed pretty fun and I had a sense of connection with the characters and so forth. 

 

SO i bought a couple of the house boxes and built some decks and played htem against each other and we were having a decent time.

Fast forward a couple of months and whilst attending Cancon (in AUS) i went over to the AGoT players and had a couple of games.  After getting destroyed several times over to rapant control mechanics we started talknig about the price and how much it costs to really get into the game and all that.  Given the way the cards are spaced out and everyhting, i was concerned that it would end up being very expensive to play on a competative basis. 

I couldn't beleive it when i was casually told that the buy in was ~1,000 as if it were no matter.  Simply put whether you're rich or poor a thousand dollars is considerable money and not something that you want to be told is the entrance for a given game - even if it is 'relatively cheap to sustain thereafter'. 

I have to say i enjy the game and love the setting, but there are a few things which i find really disconcerting about the whole thing, and after discussing it with the freinds i started the game with we mostly feel the same. 

  • The entry price is really prohibitive, especially the idea that three core sets are needed.
  • The card bloat is phenominal.  The cyclic nature of magic was used earlier in this discussion as a negative, whereas i feel for any game to thrive in a competative setting there needs to be resets and redress to the state of the game on a reasonable time scale.  My favourite game L5R, did this really successfully, and overall it helped the game survive. 
  • Almost every game i've played has ended up is some kind of ridiculous control choke that is extremely unfun, and seems to be endemic of the game as a whole.  The control options are severe and easy to use and they seem (from my limited experience) to outperform rush (generally the counterpoint to control) without trying.  Readily available board resets are also to blame here.
  • The restricted list and banned list are great tools, however, competatively speaking they are band aids when a face lift (reset) is probably more appropriate.
  • Magic might have simple and elegant mechanics that can be confused as boring, its also doesn't (to mk knowledge - since i stopped in 5th), have to diferentiate between 'draw' and 'reveal into hand', as a method of lawyering its way around its own rules.
  • I Like the Barratheons, but apparently they suck at control - ergo they are bottom tier, as with L5r i approached this game with a sense of faction loyalty - so where is the fun in knowing that your faction is on the bottom and likely to stay there outside of jumping through hoops?
  • I went through card DB, and put together a deck i thought would be interesting (if not competative - see above), and then checked all the packs i'd need.  I got pretty sick very fast of seeing that there were ones and two's of the cards i wanted in any given pack.  Sure it's great if you've bene playing from day dog, but the ability to buy singles would be really sweet compared to paying $20 AU for a pack and only needing one or two cards out of it. 

It's almost funny because there is a similar arguement going on regarding table top wargaming at present.  That Warmachine is starting to outsrip warhammer because the entry price (all else equal) is so much more attractive.

Anything that wants to survive needs fuel, and players ar ethe LCG's fuel. 

Anyway, i don't really want to ruffle anyones feathers, and this game is great, that doesn't mean it is without it's issues.  Cost and card bloat are the two major barriers to this game and coincdentally if you fix the latter the first takes care of itself. 

 

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I still think the best answer is to quit making chapter packs.  Reprint old cycles into a single deluxe box (you can fit 360 cards in there), charge $60 for it, and now both the price and volume of the expansions you buy to get into the game is drastically reduced.  This would also mean no new chapter packs, switching to a distribution method similar to what W:I and CoC are on; though, I would prefer for thrones to get four 180-card expansions a year, instead of the three 155-cards expansions the other two are curretly receiveing.

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A few comments that were made I don't understand:

How, to make a competetive AGOT deck, could it cost 1000s of dollars? What math takes 1000s of dollars to make ONE deck in an LCG?

I know very few magic players, and I've been asking guys at game stores, store owners and old time players, waht they do with their old MtG cards. Just one of them mentioned that they resell their MtG cards to buy the next standard rotation sets, and, of those, they still have to put some money down to get those other cards.

That MtG has a cash prize pay out: This is like saying "I'm going to pick up Basketball cause there's tons of money for professional players! This hobby will pay for itself!'. Not everyone wants to play in big tournaments. Not everyone will win money (few in fact).

MtG is McDonalds. But it is a McDonalds in a field that requires at least one other person to also have chosen it as their purchse of choice, hence, if it is the biggest, people will hedge their bets and play MtG. That and there is that certain something of nostalgia element. Despite the fact that Monopoly is an abhorant game as far as design and interaction, people still play it for that reason alone.

AGOT core set 40 (30 usually), starter decks in MtG 15 (never hardly ever less). Sure MtG wins. But how many different decks can you make from that 15 MtG buy? Can someone ELSE play with that 15 MtG purchase with you? Does that 15 MtG purchase give you access to a sample of many of the games mechanics and flavor of all of the 'colors' in the game? Is that 15 MtG purchase give you enough decks for a 4 player Multiplayer game?

 

This thread should not have been about what game is better. Clearly, sales shows us that it is MtG. This thread's intention was that AGoT is affordable for many aspects of gaming.

1.) Casual gaming. Yes. 40 bucks gives you many decks and multiplayer and cards you can use and tweek a bit here and there relatively easily.

2.) Hardcore gamer: Yes. 300-400 dollars gets you almost any tournament deck with careful purchases AND tons of cards you'll be able to use for other things and decks later. And these will be legal and useful in a competetive and accessible format for forver. MtG lacks that last point.

3.) Must own every card in this game for the present format: At least there are only 15 dollars new every month (or perhaps a touch more).

Slice it any way you want, but lest just try to keep it to the affordability in this thread. Thanks!

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HI there

 

@Vermillion

 

Good points.  I guess what i was trying to say above is that.  Building a deck that you hope will do well can be an expensive investment, due to card placement within the expansions. 

 

Where sas, take another CCG that focuses heavily on factions and yet, lacks the competative prizes of MtG - L5R, you can build a pretty decent deck for a lower price margin because of the singles market.  Also i suppose with L5R, as sets rotate, often times they'll rotate cards back in as well.

 

I just know that having to buy 2 (maybe 3) core sets, a house set and 10+ chapter packs to get a good deck going is a pretty steep front loaded cost. 

Cheers

 

 

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But this 'good deck' can be the exact deck list of a tournament winning deck… AND you also now have the other 100+ cards from those packs to play around with AND your deck is ALWAYS LEGAL.

Hence, the affordability in the long run.

And don't tell me you can buy a 'pretty good' standard deck in MtG for less than you can in the LCGs with the same conditions. Except maybe MtG Eggs deck, which, I've been noticing, requires more and more rares to run better…

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vermillian said:

This thread should not have been about what game is better. Clearly, sales shows us that it is MtG. This thread's intention was that AGoT is affordable for many aspects of gaming.

 

Sales show that Magic is more popular but that doesnt make it better..

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Desertspiral said:

Hi there,

 

I've found this thread really interesting so far.  I recently started playing AGoT around christmas time last year (2012).  I enjoyed the books and some freinds i was staying with also enjoyed them so i bought a core set and had a few games.  Then i found that I enjoyed the game system, out of the box is seemed pretty fun and I had a sense of connection with the characters and so forth. 

 

SO i bought a couple of the house boxes and built some decks and played htem against each other and we were having a decent time.

Fast forward a couple of months and whilst attending Cancon (in AUS) i went over to the AGoT players and had a couple of games.  After getting destroyed several times over to rapant control mechanics we started talknig about the price and how much it costs to really get into the game and all that.  Given the way the cards are spaced out and everyhting, i was concerned that it would end up being very expensive to play on a competative basis. 

I couldn't beleive it when i was casually told that the buy in was ~1,000 as if it were no matter.  Simply put whether you're rich or poor a thousand dollars is considerable money and not something that you want to be told is the entrance for a given game - even if it is 'relatively cheap to sustain thereafter'. 

I have to say i enjy the game and love the setting, but there are a few things which i find really disconcerting about the whole thing, and after discussing it with the freinds i started the game with we mostly feel the same. 

  • The entry price is really prohibitive, especially the idea that three core sets are needed.
  • The card bloat is phenominal.  The cyclic nature of magic was used earlier in this discussion as a negative, whereas i feel for any game to thrive in a competative setting there needs to be resets and redress to the state of the game on a reasonable time scale.  My favourite game L5R, did this really successfully, and overall it helped the game survive. 
  • Almost every game i've played has ended up is some kind of ridiculous control choke that is extremely unfun, and seems to be endemic of the game as a whole.  The control options are severe and easy to use and they seem (from my limited experience) to outperform rush (generally the counterpoint to control) without trying.  Readily available board resets are also to blame here.
  • The restricted list and banned list are great tools, however, competatively speaking they are band aids when a face lift (reset) is probably more appropriate.
  • Magic might have simple and elegant mechanics that can be confused as boring, its also doesn't (to mk knowledge - since i stopped in 5th), have to diferentiate between 'draw' and 'reveal into hand', as a method of lawyering its way around its own rules.
  • I Like the Barratheons, but apparently they suck at control - ergo they are bottom tier, as with L5r i approached this game with a sense of faction loyalty - so where is the fun in knowing that your faction is on the bottom and likely to stay there outside of jumping through hoops?
  • I went through card DB, and put together a deck i thought would be interesting (if not competative - see above), and then checked all the packs i'd need.  I got pretty sick very fast of seeing that there were ones and two's of the cards i wanted in any given pack.  Sure it's great if you've bene playing from day dog, but the ability to buy singles would be really sweet compared to paying $20 AU for a pack and only needing one or two cards out of it. 

It's almost funny because there is a similar arguement going on regarding table top wargaming at present.  That Warmachine is starting to outsrip warhammer because the entry price (all else equal) is so much more attractive.

Anything that wants to survive needs fuel, and players ar ethe LCG's fuel. 

Anyway, i don't really want to ruffle anyones feathers, and this game is great, that doesn't mean it is without it's issues.  Cost and card bloat are the two major barriers to this game and coincdentally if you fix the latter the first takes care of itself. 

 

I really appreciate this post. This is pretty much what I'm getting at with this game. It's not a lack of quality. The game has quality (though the pre-FAQ card pool was a bit unbalanced). It's this exact issue your discussing I'm trying to highlight. The game has a MASSIVE barrier of entry. It's at least $120 to even begin to have fun at tournaments. A core set deck will get roasted at a tournament right now. I do not know if the same is true for a $15 deck in Magic, but suffice to say it cost a lot less money to try it out as well.

The core premise of this thread is that AGoT is affordable, yet affordability is a subjective term. Ferraris are affordable to Bill Gates. Dinner isn't affordable to a homeless guy. So we need to establish affordability, or at least look at games that could susbtitute for AGoT and look at the barrier of entry for them.

Let's set a premise that AGoT has these qualities:

Customization, Luck, Skill, Socialization

What games have similar qualities?

WoW - Customization (skill builds), Luck (loot drops), Skill, Socialization, Twitch Gaming

The cost to enter WoW is the cost of all of its expansions currently. The core game and the first 2 expansions cost $20. The Cataclysm expansion costs $20. Mists of Pandaria costs $40. That amounts to $80 for WoW. That is currently less than 3 core sets. The only major differences are online vs real-life socialization and that WoW has twitch gaming and AGoT does not. There is also no back-log of packs you would ever have to buy. You just need to pay the subscription fee for future time. Additionally, you get a discount if you buy a bunch of months of game time at once.

Netrunner - Customization, Luck, Skill, Socialization

Currently, most would argue that 2 core sets is all you need. You could even get away with 1 core set and waiting for the faction pack of your preferred faction. The back log of packs you would need to buy is also lower than AGoT. So entry fee amounts to $40 - $120 depending on your preference with a massive edge in cost to catch up (though WoW obviously has none).

Magic - Customization, Luck, Skill, Socialization

The titan of the industry and the one with nearly the lowest entry fee ($15). The backlog fee is difficult to measure in this one. You can generally buy singles of the cards you want (something that really can't be done in AGoT), so it is very variable. The cost to be a top tier player is incredibly greater than AGoT (assuming that they restrict enough cards that you don't have to spend $1000s on chapter packs containing the best cards).

League of Legends - Skill, Socialization, Twitch Gaming, Luck (minor), Customization (medium)

This is the titan of Free-to-Play right now (and yes it is literally free to play, you can't buy power in this game). It's luck is more based on match-making than anything. It's customization is similar to WoW in that you can choose what class and skill tree you want. It's mostly a skill game. It also has internet socialization and twitch gaming. It is not a perfect substitute for AGoT, but it is free. You really can't beat free. Why play AGoT if my friends and I could get together and play this game all day for free?

Starcraft - Skill, Socialization (minor), Twitch Gaming, Customization

The game that pretty much created e-sports. If you want a contest of pure skill mixed with twitch gaming, this is your game. It has internet socialization, though it is very minor. The fact is, this game costs $50 to play and is probably one of the deepest experiences you could have as a competitive gamer. If you had never playred Starcraft or AGoT and were inclined to play both, I think you'd be hard pressed to not give Starcraft a try before AGoT. This doesn't even touch on the fact that Starcraft has an INCREDIBLE single player experience. The online competitive play is FREE!!! NO subscription fee. NO chapter packs. You just need the internet. If you don't have that, you can't even read this.

As you can see here, though the games may be across a couple genres, there is one obvious consistency. AGoT has the highest cost of entry of them all to be able to play at a remotely competitive level. This leads to my next question. What is an acceptable cost of entry for AGoT.

How many core sets should a player be required to buy? I would say zero to one (they should either not want the cards or get triplicate of the good ones). The core set is a relic of this game's reset and no longer serves any real purpose as is. Why are players being forced to buy both an expansion and a core set? How many expansions should a player be required to buy? 1 (their primary faction). How much backlog should a player be required to buy? I would say none. That would be very difficult currently and this is where you see the problem with AGoT. Players need to buy a significant number of older chapter packs to be able to start playing competitively.

I feel that AGoT's barrier of entry should be around $50. I would not object to FFG dropping the cost of their old product and upping the cost of entry to $80 or $100 if it was a worthwhile $100 (they got all the very old, very good cards). Basically, sell a core set at cost that's actually worth buying and then let them buy the expansion of their choice and be able to enter a tournament and have fun. Having fun meaning having a positive play experience and leaving feeling like they learned a lot (and not like they just got annihilated). Then every player has the option of cherry picking what they want (at the additional cost of whatever the packs cost) from the last cycle or 2. Reduce the cost of entry, and the game should see a lot more interest. The subject matter is already intriguing, it's just not worth paying the cost of entry right now.

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As the card pool gets larger, and it's been mentioned on CardGameDB, the need to bring proxies into the game. Between Team covenant selling singles and proxies, that would make it easier for new players to jump in competitively. This is something that needs to be addressed soon. I'm sure FFg has already been brainstorming this as well. I like the idea of breaking older cycles down into deluxe espansions. Perhaps house specific would be nice

In my own experience: It has taken me and an other friend 2 years to catch up on the card pool. He plays targs and martells. I play greyjoy and Starks. I looked at the cards we had and looked at competitve decks and i didn't think about playing competitively until recently. That and i live hundreds of miles to the closest tournaments.

Maybe they should totally revamp the  newer cycles into house specific deluxe expansions. We can spend all night discussing Magic. But one thing that none of us can argue with (i don't think) is that Magic knows how to market. It's survived for 20 years. There is something to be learned from it. Maybe thrones can have Release dates. Create Hype. You preorder your preferred house expansion. There's a tournament on the release days. And you play only from the cards you get from the expansions. It doesn't matter how vast your library of cards or how new you are to the game. Give newer players an arena for competitive play. Have some unique alternate art. Us older players still get excited about foils!  Perhaps have a draft of cards of maybe neutral characters and plots and events to add that at a later time can be printed on demand. So you could play just with the cards you get or you're allowed to bring  a certain # of cards from your collection to compliment the expanion you'll recieve. Or you have to play from a specific Chapter cycle?

SO LIKE THIS: Next year this time There's going to be a new Chapter cycle. YOu preorder your preferred house or (houses). And this is one thing that bugs fans and stores. WHEN ARE THE PRODUCTS REALLY GOING TO BE IN THE STORES? Have a SPECIFIC RELEASE DATE FOR ALL STORES. Can't have Fridays so we do it Saturday. There's going to be a tournament . Entrance fee that includes latest chapter cycle some alternate art cards and foils etc. Then there's another box to be used as a draft. everyone loves drafts!  After looking at your house, you will pick in turn, plots, events, attachments, a new agenda, neutral characters( you could have it so that the draft cards are restricted to the tournament only) to supplement your deck. New and veteran players in a an even competitve arena. If you want to talk worlds, start your collection and perhaps you'll be allowed to use some proxies. Or do what guys do when going to Magic tournaments. Borrow Cards! This is a cool community. We wouldn't mind

Anyway it's 1 in the morning here. just brainstorming. Thoughts?

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I got into this game about a year ago, around while the Tale of Chanpions cycle was finishing up.  I had some significant catch-up to do in terms of cards.  I got in with a friend, so we decided to each pick 3 houses and split the costs.  Here is what the buy-in cost me:

3 core sets @ $20 each (amazon sale) = $60 / 2 = $30

3 deluxe boxes @ 20 each (coolstuffinc) = $60

32 chapter packs (this was over the course of 6-9 months, and we didn't buy all old CPs; rather, we omitted any we didn't need cards from) at $10 ea (coolstuffinc) = $320 / 2 = $180

That's a grand total of $270.  Round it up to $300 to allow for sleeves and deck boxes.  

Thats certainly not $1K, even if you double it.  And because my cards are always legal, so I can keep going back to them to rebuild new decks, I'm happy with my investment.  More than $15 for a preconstructed magic deck?  Yes.  But many more cards and infinitely more versatile = much more fun.

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mdc273 said:

. A core set deck will get roasted at a tournament right now. I do not know if the same is true for a $15 deck in Magic, but suffice to say it cost a lot less money to try it out as well.

WoW - Customization (skill builds), Luck (loot drops), Skill, Socialization, Twitch Gaming

The cost to enter WoW is the cost of all of its expansions currently. The core game and the first 2 expansions cost $20. The Cataclysm expansion costs $20. Mists of Pandaria costs $40. That amounts to $80 for WoW. That is currently less than 3 core sets. The only major differences are online vs real-life socialization and that WoW has twitch gaming and AGoT does not. There is also no back-log of packs you would ever have to buy. You just need to pay the subscription fee for future time. Additionally, you get a discount if you buy a bunch of months of game time at once.

 

 

Snipped out a couple salient points.

Lol, yes, that $15 deck would get absolutely roasted in a tournament. Due to the collectible model of MtG it's in WotC's best interest to sell you starter decks that are actively bad and contain mostly average to sub-par cards. They include a good one sometimes in order to entice collectors and competitive players to buy the product and up their sales rather than through thought to having a competitive starter deck.

 

Also, a thought on WoW is that you may be paying for future time, but once you stop paying, you're done. When you purchase AGOT cards, you're also paying for future time that never expires.

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Vaapad said:

I got into this game about a year ago, around while the Tale of Chanpions cycle was finishing up.  I had some significant catch-up to do in terms of cards.  I got in with a friend, so we decided to each pick 3 houses and split the costs.  Here is what the buy-in cost me:

3 core sets @ $20 each (amazon sale) = $60 / 2 = $30

3 deluxe boxes @ 20 each (coolstuffinc) = $60

32 chapter packs (this was over the course of 6-9 months, and we didn't buy all old CPs; rather, we omitted any we didn't need cards from) at $10 ea (coolstuffinc) = $320 / 2 = $180

That's a grand total of $270.  Round it up to $300 to allow for sleeves and deck boxes.  

Thats certainly not $1K, even if you double it.  And because my cards are always legal, so I can keep going back to them to rebuild new decks, I'm happy with my investment.  More than $15 for a preconstructed magic deck?  Yes.  But many more cards and infinitely more versatile = much more fun.

whoops, bad math.  320 / 2 = 160.  So the grand total should have been closer to $250 than $300

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Things like WoW and Starcraft are so fundamentally different from GoT (and card games in general) that there really is no point in comparing them.  Those activities may be cheaper monetarily, but the time investments required to play them at a competitive level must be considered as well.  My friends who play WoW have told me that "the game starts at 80" (or rather 85 now) and complained about both the difficulty and necessity of obtaining top-tier gear.  Starcraft is arguably even worse in this aspect as one must spend many hours and dozens of games, if not hundreds, refining build orders and macro skills before they can really do anything with the game on a competitive level.  And even if those things don't bother you, this cursory analysis doesn't even scratch the surface of all the differences there are.  A lot of people who play card games probably just plain prefer the very different gameplay experience they offer regardless of any money or time considerations.

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Bunch of good points.

@snaggrriss - FFG is clearly trying to step it up, but I think they need to be reminded of stuff like this. They're marketing department is decent, but it doesn't compare well. It's quality is high, though. They don't have a ton of marketing, but they tend to make high quality stuff. They don't seem to really nail the "I WANT THAT NOW!!!!!" factor, though. And I was actually considering this on my way to work. I wish that there were foils in the chapter packs. I think I'm going to break that into another post.

@Kennon - LoL for the Magic decks, but they do their job. They get people in cheap and get them to want to play more. I don't think the core set does that right now. Also a good point about WoW not giving you anything permanent, but not all gamers are looking for permanency. Right now the target market for AGoT feels like it's just "people who want to play AGoT". It doesn't feel like it includes "random guy off the street that is looking for a game to play".

@Vaapad - Yea, I knew the $1k was absurd, but will it be if this game continues on for a few more years? You also split the boxes meaning that a single player getting into it might actually have to pay in the $500 - $600 range. Factors change everything, but someone who wants to play every house to some degree will need to pay a pretty hefty price. Also, while Magic players get less cards, more cards are inherently viable due to the color wheel. 2 color decks are common, three color decks are playable, though not as common. I'm not really sure how that factors into the value considerations.

@tibs3688 - I think you're looking at it from a top-tier level. Not every player plays at the top tier. My dad, for instance, enjoys just sitting around fishing in the game when he's bored. WoW has an incredibly deep single player experience as well as an incredibly deep and amazingly supported multi-player experience. The point I'm making is more to my last line @Kennon. AGoT seems to be targetting "people that want to play AGoT". It's not targetting "that guy over there who wants to find something to do with his $50". Obviously you want to have a core of people that want to play AGoT, but you need to have enough draw power to pull in "that guy". If not, it will become more and more difficult to find new players that will stay with the game. The game could very well hit a wall of attrition that sees it die out without "that guy". It started happening in NYC pre-FAQ. There was one dominant deck that kind of turned everyone off. It didn't necessarily make everyone hate thrones, but it was a very NPE experience and pretty unsatisfying. I quit because of it in all honesty. Obviously that's a balance issue, but without new players to play against that weren't playing that absurd deck, I lost interest.

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@tibs3688 - I think you're looking at it from a top-tier level. Not every player plays at the top tier. My dad, for instance, enjoys just sitting around fishing in the game when he's bored. WoW has an incredibly deep single player experience as well as an incredibly deep and amazingly supported multi-player experience. The point I'm making is more to my last line @Kennon. AGoT seems to be targetting. . .

You're right; not everyone plays at the top level.  Those folks can indeed just buy a core set, a couple house expansions, and whatever random CPs suit their fancy and play their friends casually with random crappy decks.  I recall the main complaint against AGoT's affordability here being how much it costs to play at tournament level.  If playing with broken decks and going to tournaments doesn't suit you there's no reason the game needs to cost much at all.  Me and my friends started off having plenty of fun with just 1 core set; some of them lost interest soon after, others like myself wanted to go further, but we all had the same entry point.

Out of curiosity, what absurd deck are you referring to?

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~TLDR for mdc's threads: It seems that mdc just wants FFG to hand a pre-constructed deck that he can win worlds with. Unlike most competitive players when confronting a dominant archetype in their meta who try to think of ways to compensate for it or tech against it. mdc took his cards and ran away to Netrunner. But maybe he's back now that power-cards were restricted. But he'll be gone again when new power-cards take over and he doesn't want to figure out ways to deal with them. And back again if they give him foils. burla

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tibs3688 said:

@tibs3688 - I think you're looking at it from a top-tier level. Not every player plays at the top tier. My dad, for instance, enjoys just sitting around fishing in the game when he's bored. WoW has an incredibly deep single player experience as well as an incredibly deep and amazingly supported multi-player experience. The point I'm making is more to my last line @Kennon. AGoT seems to be targetting. . .

You're right; not everyone plays at the top level.  Those folks can indeed just buy a core set, a couple house expansions, and whatever random CPs suit their fancy and play their friends casually with random crappy decks.  I recall the main complaint against AGoT's affordability here being how much it costs to play at tournament level.  If playing with broken decks and going to tournaments doesn't suit you there's no reason the game needs to cost much at all.  Me and my friends started off having plenty of fun with just 1 core set; some of them lost interest soon after, others like myself wanted to go further, but we all had the same entry point.

Out of curiosity, what absurd deck are you referring to?

House of Dreams Tunnels of the Red Keep with Pentoshi Manors and Castellans. I'm not sure which is more unsatisfying to play against, that or GJ choke. Probably choke, but man was that HoD deck just unpleasant. He retired it because there was only one person in the meta willing to play against it (Targ Dragons apparently hard counters it pretty well).

Going back to affordability, the point I'm making is that this game is expensive at the most basic level to get into. It is cheaper to play almost any other game than this one due to the backlog of cards you might be forced to get. I'm not sure that the main complaint was against tournament level, but even if it were, that doesn't mean it's the only significant consideration in affordability. Barrier of entry is a consideration in affordability as well. And if going to tournaments doesn't suit me (pretty much everyone who plays competitively tries a tournament at some time, a pleasant tournament experience increases their interest in the game even if they lose every game) I would play board games. Also, what you just indicated costs $100 - $160. If they just wanted to play games at home they could've bought Chaos in the Old World, Power Grid, and Agricola for that price (going back to value/affordability) or Glory to Rome, Race for the Galaxy, and Dominion if they wanted more of a card game oriented game.

@Danigral - Foils are about increasing the appeal of buying the game. If people like foils, they might be more inclined to buy AGoT. If they like collectibility in their card games, now they can try to collect foils. They neither add nor take away from the playing of the game and require nothing more than figuring out how to print foil cards and put them in a box.

As for giving a deck that can win world's, it's about a game where losing is still fun. I've said this before, I rarely lose a game of Netrunner and feel like I couldn't have done something better. Sometimes the cards fall wrong, but most of the time I could've played better. This game I rarely felt that way. If this game shifts back towards that kind of feeling when the game ends, I bet its popularity will increase. The same with adding something superficial like foils. I'll bet you'll see an increase in popularity (or sales) if they were able to do it.

It's actually pretty funny seeing someone do a TL:DR for this. I don't even think I could come up with a legit one.

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mdc273 said:

 

@Vaapad - Yea, I knew the $1k was absurd, but will it be if this game continues on for a few more years? You also split the boxes meaning that a single player getting into it might actually have to pay in the $500 - $600 range. Factors change everything, but someone who wants to play every house to some degree will need to pay a pretty hefty price. Also, while Magic players get less cards, more cards are inherently viable due to the color wheel. 2 color decks are common, three color decks are playable, though not as common. I'm not really sure how that factors into the value considerations.

 

 

I wanted to chime in here with some math. I think it is highly improbable that a competitive AGOT deck will ever cost more than $300. I'm not a competitive AGOT player, so it's possible I'm full of horse puckey.

Let's assume that you have to buy a chapter pack for every card - nothing's in the Core Set. Additionally, let's assume that every card you run comes from a different chapter pack - there are no chapter packs that offer you two cards you're interested in. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's happened yet.)

Finally, let's assume - and here is where some people might argue against my contention - that you're running 2 copies of any given card on average. Now, that means you'll have some cards in triplicate, and others (like plots) that you only need one of.

So you head over to coolstuffinc and pick up 33.5 unique cards x $10 a chapter pack = one $335 deck of cards, plus a few decks worth of other cards.

They can add all the cards they want, but at the end of the day, they're still limited by 67 cards in a deck and three copies of each. The limit of what a deck could cost is MSRP $1,000 - (67 cards, all solitaires, buying packs at MSRP $15 = $1,005).

 

And comparing the cost of buying "every house" of AGOT is akin to wanting to play "every color" of Magic - how much do 5 competitive magic decks cost?

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Going back to affordability, the point I'm making is that this game is expensive at the most basic level to get into. It is cheaper to play almost any other game than this one due to the backlog of cards you might be forced to get. I'm not sure that the main complaint was against tournament level, but even if it were, that doesn't mean it's the only significant consideration in affordability. Barrier of entry is a consideration in affordability as well. And if going to tournaments doesn't suit me (pretty much everyone who plays competitively tries a tournament at some time, a pleasant tournament experience increases their interest in the game even if they lose every game) I would play board games. Also, what you just indicated costs $100 - $160. If they just wanted to play games at home they could've bought Chaos in the Old World, Power Grid, and Agricola for that price (going back to value/affordability) or Glory to Rome, Race for the Galaxy, and Dominion if they wanted more of a card game oriented game.

No, it's not expensive to get into at the most basic level.  A core set is thirty dollars at most.  My suggestions regarding core set + expansion + a few CPs was just that, a suggestion based on what I've observed from seeing a lot of newcomer threads asking for deck advice and detailing what cards they have.  If it costs $100+ and that is too rich for someone's blood they are obviously not required to spend that much, though in my experience most people who play any kind of card game, aGoT or otherwise, is quite willing to spend at *least* that much.

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It's an enjoyable game but it's a bit of a money pit. I bought the card game for 30 and the Five Kings starter set for 12, Enjoyable to play but I am the kind of guy that wants a solid amount of cards for variety, To spice things up a bit because playing with the same cards over and over again is boring. I do plan on buying the Iron Throne starter set that costs 15 (to even out Five Kings) as well as a chapter pack or two (about 12 dollars each) for the 4 houses to even things out but that's as much as I am going to spend on it. I am a bit annoyed with how pricy the deluxe expansions are, 30 dollars for 60 new cards!?!?!? Especially when they are similar cards to what are already in the main game, Bit of a rip off imo.

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asylumspadez said:

It's an enjoyable game but it's a bit of a money pit. I bought the card game for 30 and the Five Kings starter set for 12, Enjoyable to play but I am the kind of guy that wants a solid amount of cards for variety, To spice things up a bit because playing with the same cards over and over again is boring. I do plan on buying the Iron Throne starter set that costs 15 (to even out Five Kings) as well as a chapter pack or two (about 12 dollars each) for the 4 houses to even things out but that's as much as I am going to spend on it. I am a bit annoyed with how pricy the deluxe expansions are, 30 dollars for 60 new cards!?!?!? Especially when they are similar cards to what are already in the main game, Bit of a rip off imo.

 

I hate to break it to you, but I think you bought some CCG cards (the Five Kings and Iron Throne starters).

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tibs3688 said:

No, it's not expensive to get into at the most basic level.  A core set is thirty dollars at most.  My suggestions regarding core set + expansion + a few CPs was just that, a suggestion based on what I've observed from seeing a lot of newcomer threads asking for deck advice and detailing what cards they have.  If it costs $100+ and that is too rich for someone's blood they are obviously not required to spend that much, though in my experience most people who play any kind of card game, AGoT or otherwise, is quite willing to spend at *least* that much.

I consider the most basic level inclusive of tourney play as I am of the opinion everyone will really want to do tourney play and will generally be turned off to the game if unsuccessful. While this clearly won't apply to everyone, there will be a significant number of people to whom it does apply and the majority of people that will actually help any meta grow would likely be included in that population.

You are correct that the true most basic level doesn't require it, but then why would anyone even buy AGoT other than the brand? It's not particularly well known as a board game (and it even has an actual AGoT board game).

As for those willing to spend $100+ on AGoT. If there were more appeal for this game, they would already be doing so. The value they get is not the same as whatever it is they are buying (usually Magic and/or Netrunner). That would already make a substantial argument against affordability for this game by itself. If the games were equally valuable, they would be buying AGoT. This might have gone past affordability at this point and onto value, but I will always believe value > affordability most of the time. There are people who would rather buy a para-sail than play this game. You can always argue this game is more afforable than a para-sail, but it won't change that person's mind.

Affordability will really only enter the equation when someone feels that there is value AND affordability. I would assume most people that currently play this game are on the side of this game being affordable and valuable. I obviously do not.

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You dont need to buy every single AGoT card in order to run a competitive deck. You can buy the expansions plus 2 cores and build solid decks. In my case, I have 2 cores and only 2 expansions and my decks still hold up in my meta.

 

I have played both AGoT and MtG and a large portion of my decision was not only the play and how fun but also that the MtG players were all smelly basement dwellers that spent ungodly amounts of money to build decks.

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Not only does the word affordable come into play but also player support? how much help are new players getting in your area to make them want ot stay in the game?  At my local gaming store- a friend of mine from another card game I used to play (Vs.) wanted to get into GoT- I told him all about it- linked him to this site for the products- game demo videos, ect.  When he first got his core set- instead of using one of the many decks I had- we played a melee game with just his core set and thats it- this helped him get into the game and get the mechanics and all that fun stuff.  Now he has a lot of cards and also got his g/f and his roomate to play the game as well.  I got an extra 2 new players just from doing that alone!

Now I also used to play Magic on a constant basis- and the support where I live for the game is downright a crime- and a reason I do not play FNM anymore and only play casual with my friends on my own- during my time playing at my local game store on a Friday night- I can at least remember over 20 new people getting into the game and then quitting right away due to the "unsavory low-life" types that plague Magic- ripping new people off for cards- telling them to buy cards from sets that are going to rotate out in a month were standard practive there- also not helping new players made me too sick to continue playing Magic at all on a FNM level.

 

Also there is no Got card that goes for over 40 bucks that you need 4 of to win- I remember when I was playing Magic- the hot card to have was Jace the Mind Sculptor and he was over a 100 bucks……….for ONE card! asustado  Any players response there was -"you need to have 4 of these to do good here" Sorry I have bills and other things I like to do before I will ever do that., then I found out about LCGs- wadda know?  I can buy a couple of chapter packs for the cost of ONE Jace at the time!  And the cards never rotate out!

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Threadomancy!

The argument for affordability always seems to be that the distribution model is different. Yep, but itd oesn't make it cost less.

Affordable - believed to be within one's financial means

The term is obviously relative. For tier 1 competition, spending $300 - $500 for all the cards for a deck is going to be subjectively affordable. I am making the point that $300 - $500 is not outright affordable. It is an investment that many people will need to decide whether or not to make. If this game were obviously and outright affordable, no one would be considering whether or not to play it. I know multiple people who have stopped playing because it wasn't affordable for them in the grand scheme of things.

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