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vermillian2

This game IS AFFORDABLE

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I am tired of numerous threads and discussions about how this game has an insurmountable barrier to entry.

Compare the costs of buying boosters and such to get an affordable deck in MtG. 4 sets of 3+ booster boxes (12 times 100 = 1200) vs no more than 60 expansion packs (60 times 15 = 900)… and when you buy AGoT packs you get to play with them legally in tournaments forever!

Stop the hype and help spread the word. Shout down mathematical innaccuracies when you see them! Support LCG with knowledge!!

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vermillian said:

I am tired of numerous threads and discussions about how this game has an insurmountable barrier to entry.

Compare the costs of buying boosters and such to get an affordable deck in MtG. 4 sets of 3+ booster boxes (12 times 100 = 1200) vs no more than 60 expansion packs (60 times 15 = 900)… and when you buy AGoT packs you get to play with them legally in tournaments forever!

Stop the hype and help spread the word. Shout down mathematical innaccuracies when you see them! Support LCG with knowledge!!

burden of knowledge > burden of finances.

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Wrote post, deleted, rewrote in concise form.

1. Everyone who plays Standard seriously knows that you never, never, never, never, never get cards by opening boosters.

2. When Standard rotates, people usually sell cards and buy new ones. They lose value, but if done right, you don't lose too much.

3. Average cost of Pro level deck is about 700 bucks. The one that won latest Pro Tour $40K tourney costed 650.

4. When we speak about Pro level, we speak about tournaments that (as above) give large prizes and have 500-1500 people.

5. If you play at your local FNMs with about 20 people per tourney (that's more or less a lower limit on number of people at FNM tourney), you can win with much-much cheaper decks (I won't be surprised if one can show up with 100 bucks deck and just win)

PS. Flame war it is. :-P

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Well the Magic angle has been done to death, and it is pretty cheap and less hassle to play AGOT. You might not make your money back, but then again you don't have to sell your collection piece by piece every few years in an attempt to recoup the considerable costs. I just wish it would go away because most people here don't play Magic anymore, or with any level of seriousness so its guess work at best. What we do know, cost aside is how AGOT works.

Lets compare something we know a bit better; organized play. When a person buys Magic cards, he learns that there are multiple tournament  tiers, and a large player base, convention support and attrative prizes for all levels of play. So in that regard, Magic wins. AGOT is light years behind this, but it is also much more affordable and casual (not a bad thing always).

So I guess you could ask this question: assuming you like both games equally, would you rather spend more money with Magic or AGOT? Maybe the answer depends on how much you like competitive play. Also, its important to remember these are AGOT boards, so I'm guessing most of us pick AGOT because we enjoy the game more, not just the money aspect.

I'm really interested in a new disscussion: new LCG(s) vs AGOT. That is way more interesting to talk about considering both new LCGs have way more regional events than AGOT.

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vermillian said:

I am tired of numerous threads and discussions about how this game has an insurmountable barrier to entry.

Compare the costs of buying boosters and such to get an affordable deck in MtG. 4 sets of 3+ booster boxes (12 times 100 = 1200) vs no more than 60 expansion packs (60 times 15 = 900)… and when you buy AGoT packs you get to play with them legally in tournaments forever!

Stop the hype and help spread the word. Shout down mathematical innaccuracies when you see them! Support LCG with knowledge!!

And of course the opposite of this…

I am tired of numerous threads and discussions about how this game is affordable to start playing.

If two people simply want to play with a bunch of cards from the newest sets, they can't simply go buy the whole cycle and have a playable deck. They can't simply buy the cycle's "starter decks". They have to buy a core set, maybe 2 or three, or an expansion pack first, then the cycle.

Never mind the question, "Are the expansion packs balanced against each other?" If I buy the Stark expansion and put together it's suggested deck and play it against the Lannister suggested deck what will happen? I'm fairly confident the Magic starter decks are roughly balanced. Which is the most likely to give a random new player a positive experience for the least amount of money?

Also, compare the costs of buying 60 expansion packs ($900) to the cost of buying 3 for Netrunner ($45). Why would you choose AGoT?

Then you forgot the fact that I can buy an out of box, fun, thematic starter deck for Magic for $10 - $15 and can't come close to that with AGoT.

If you want this game to make sense to random guy who wants to play a new game, you should be getting on the high cost of entry bandwagon. If you aren't, then you're likely just making it worse.

This argument has nothing to do with the validity of the game. Whether or not the game is excellent, this business model is uncompetitive. This game is not operating under a model that will allow it to sustain growth. That is why there are threads about the state of this game's business model. It simply will not do anything to expand the community without an incredible amount of help from the community. Even then, why would a random player start playing it? Why do I want to waste my time on a game that is treading water?

I've already answered that question for myself. I don't. I haven't bought a new pack in six months at least (probably more), but I have enough interest in the game to try and drive it forward when I have down time.

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The biggest barrier to entry is still the card distribution in the Core and the need to buy 2-3 of them.  Not that theres an easy fix for that, but I think its hard to convince new players to start buying when you have to recommend they start off with multiple Cores and multiple House expansions.

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BBSB12 said:

Wrote post, deleted, rewrote in concise form.

1. Everyone who plays Standard seriously knows that you never, never, never, never, never get cards by opening boosters.

2. When Standard rotates, people usually sell cards and buy new ones. They lose value, but if done right, you don't lose too much.

3. Average cost of Pro level deck is about 700 bucks. The one that won latest Pro Tour $40K tourney costed 650.

4. When we speak about Pro level, we speak about tournaments that (as above) give large prizes and have 500-1500 people.

5. If you play at your local FNMs with about 20 people per tourney (that's more or less a lower limit on number of people at FNM tourney), you can win with much-much cheaper decks (I won't be surprised if one can show up with 100 bucks deck and just win)

PS. Flame war it is. :-P

1. Given, but it's still an expensive game when you take into account sometimes needing to pay $60x4 for a playset of one card that makes your deck work.

2. Also true… at least on the first part. When you take that MR card you paid $240 to have 4 of and go to unload it when the set cycles out… as everyone else is also trying to do… you're usually lucky to get back $60 for it (and for some cards, that's being generous)

3. Wow. So they've gone down… but listen to what that means… you're paying $650-$700 for the cards to make one deck, whereas in AGoT, for about $200 more, you can have every single card in print (which is soon to include the first cycle again).

4. Yes, but that means you have up to 1500 people that paid $500+ for their deck, plus travel, plus usually a fairly high entry fee… and people wonder why WotC can afford to give out large prizes at these events…

5. But that's still $100 for one deck… in my meta, most people build 2 or more highly competitive decks for under $80. (one core, one deluxe, a house pack from a cycle, and a single or 2).

I will somewhat agree with mdc273 that, for players that haven't already been playing since the early LCG days, it can be daunting to shell out enough money all at once to get every card. It is certainly easier to get into A:NR or SW:LCG at this point, because they've each released a core and A:NR only has 3 data packs out so far, where SW is still on the ground floor with none till March.

Also, for casual card gamers, it's also certainly easier to get a couple of starter decks for MtG at $15 a pop, but for competitive play, this isn't really an option (event decks, released later in the cycle are better for FNM than starters, but still not pro level).

 

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Here's the easy reasons why people should play AGoT over Netrunner or Star Wars.

1) much better mechanics for a more strategic game

2) if people think AGoT feels stale, keep in mind we've had a big lull in product. A much smaller cardpool will be much more stale. With Star Wars, the fact that deckbuilding is limited to 10 choices means there won't even be those slight variations of decks within an arhetype. They will all be identical. It's much easier to min/max a deck with 10 chunks of 5 cards from a limited pool compared to 60 individual card choices.

3) (perhaps the biggest reason to play AGoT) the community. The AGoT community is an excellent gaming community. Don't have $900 to shell out at once to buy a complete playset of every card in print? That's fine. Most people don't and it isn't required. Start with a couple core sets, a house expansion, and some key packs then slowly build your collection. In the meantime, you can proxy for casual play. When it comes tournament time, you'll likely find someone willing to loan you a few cards that you don't yet have.

Except for those who were around for the transition to the LCG, I'm sure many of us started playing without complete playsets. If we did it, why can't current new players do the same and start playing with what their budget allows?

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HoyaLawya said:

Here's the easy reasons why people should play AGoT over Netrunner or Star Wars.

1) much better mechanics for a more strategic game

2) if people think AGoT feels stale, keep in mind we've had a big lull in product. A much smaller cardpool will be much more stale. With Star Wars, the fact that deckbuilding is limited to 10 choices means there won't even be those slight variations of decks within an arhetype. They will all be identical. It's much easier to min/max a deck with 10 chunks of 5 cards from a limited pool compared to 60 individual card choices.

3) (perhaps the biggest reason to play AGoT) the community. The AGoT community is an excellent gaming community. Don't have $900 to shell out at once to buy a complete playset of every card in print? That's fine. Most people don't and it isn't required. Start with a couple core sets, a house expansion, and some key packs then slowly build your collection. In the meantime, you can proxy for casual play. When it comes tournament time, you'll likely find someone willing to loan you a few cards that you don't yet have.

Except for those who were around for the transition to the LCG, I'm sure many of us started playing without complete playsets. If we did it, why can't current new players do the same and start playing with what their budget allows?

+1

I've drooled over A:R and SW along with the rest of the Cult of the New, until I started reading more about how janky they are. A:R sounds better than SW, I admit, with how swingy and fundamentally flawed it is on a mechanical level. A:R seems more luck based, like I'm sitting around playing "Where's the poison?" with Vinzini. "Where's the agenda? If I knew that you knew that I knew it was a bluff, would I actually put down an agenda or a trap?" It's much more of a player-driven game than a card game to me at that point, driven by play mistakes, luck, and how good you are at reading cues. AGoT is more mechanically sound, and more tactically oriented, and makes it a much better game.

I really feel like some sort of rotation or cardpool restriction has to be in the works, with as much as it's been brought up in past threads. Almost every time that's happened on the boards, FFG has done something. Maybe it will be a new tournament format, like "standard" and "legacy" or whatever.

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HoyaLawya said:

Here's the easy reasons why people should play AGoT over Netrunner or Star Wars.

1) much better mechanics for a more strategic game

2) if people think AGoT feels stale, keep in mind we've had a big lull in product. A much smaller cardpool will be much more stale. With Star Wars, the fact that deckbuilding is limited to 10 choices means there won't even be those slight variations of decks within an arhetype. They will all be identical. It's much easier to min/max a deck with 10 chunks of 5 cards from a limited pool compared to 60 individual card choices.

3) (perhaps the biggest reason to play AGoT) the community. The AGoT community is an excellent gaming community. Don't have $900 to shell out at once to buy a complete playset of every card in print? That's fine. Most people don't and it isn't required. Start with a couple core sets, a house expansion, and some key packs then slowly build your collection. In the meantime, you can proxy for casual play. When it comes tournament time, you'll likely find someone willing to loan you a few cards that you don't yet have.

Except for those who were around for the transition to the LCG, I'm sure many of us started playing without complete playsets. If we did it, why can't current new players do the same and start playing with what their budget allows?

And the counter to this…

1) Much better mechanics don't mean squat when you can't get a player to play because everything else looks like they get more bang for their buck.

2) If a game feels stale, it's probably stale. Why would anyone start a game where there are constant delays and lots of disorganization? (Just look at the Regionals mess, FAQ infrequency, and rules forum)

3) Don't know anyone with cards besides you? You're SoL. Don't play anywhere near an existing meta? You're SoL.

Oh and saying you should play AGoT over Netrunner is 100% subjective. I, for one, would suggest anyone play Netrunner over AGoT. The current state of AGoT is brokeness followed by more brokeness and then an hour later someone loses. It's not particularly exciting. Also, Netrunner was designed by the most prolific card game designer there is. Richard Garfield literally created the CCG genre. You can't tell me there's any more ringing of an endorsement than to play a game designed by the creator of the genre that was literally designed to play 100% the opposite way Magic does. The games are literally two sides of the same coin and both are spectacular.

Why can't current players do the same? Because they don't want to! I don't want to play AGoT, therefore I don't. Why would I want to start something I don't want to start?

I want to love AGoT. The game system is pretty much brilliant. The card pool is TRASH to me.

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Could not agree more, i have probably only spent (card wise) 250-300 dollars, i have a 3 person play group and we all just picked a house, i'm martel, i could have easily spent that much on a single expansion of WoW or magic, and i did back in the day, this format and structure of LCG is so much more preferable to hemorrhaging money for cards that were obsolete in 3-5 months, keep up the good work FFG. Although you guys could use a better template to the game js ; )

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Could not agree more, i have probably only spent (card wise) 250-300 dollars, i have a 3 person play group and we all just picked a house, i'm martel, i could have easily spent that much on a single expansion of WoW or magic, and i did back in the day, this format and structure of LCG is so much more preferable to hemorrhaging money for cards that were obsolete in 3-5 months, keep up the good work FFG. Although you guys could use a better template to the game js ; )

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I like what Team Covenant is doing. Taking expansions and breaking them down house specificic and also selling singles. Give us some options to work with especially if you're new to the game.

Let's go 10 years down the road with LCG when the card pool is 3 times what it is now. Let's talk worst case scenario. I find out what a competitive deck is, i go get all the packs with those cards. Let's say you had to buy 1 expansion for 60 different cards. You're looking at close to 1000 bucks. That will never happen because out of 60 card deck a lot of those cards are duplicates. Which means realistically you only have to get let's say 30 expansions tops. that's roughly 500 bucks. I just finished tracking down all the cards for John Bruno's world winning deck. Around $500. That includes 3 cores sets and 4 deluxe expansions which most casual gaming groups will  go and get anyway. You now have a base of cards for  for all 6 houses. Next go and track down 20 espansion packs( whcih is very frustrating. C'mon FFG. I'm here in Nova Scotia Cananda. [we have a tons of players here by the way. just bloody expensive to travel if you want to enter a tourney. Here' crossing our fingers for a regional this year.] I don't know if it's distributors or FFg. I need some older packs! Help me out here!

   So now that you have your deck ready, go enter the regionals and win. then go to worlds and win that too. Wait. You're not Bruno. So you need some time to improve on your driving skills! Now that you have an awesome deck you can try to get some money for them and start all over next year. Wait a minute. This isn't Magic. You don't have too.! Keep those cards in a safe place and slowly build your collection. If you don't have some cards that you want, just revise it a bit.

 If you're a rookie Formula one racer you are not going to be the best driver off the bat. You lack the experience. And you don't start off with the best car in the field. That takes time and better sponsors. Why do people new to a game expect to be competitive and complain about the initial expenses? Do you know how much money it is to raise a child.  Not including college. $20,000. That's rediculous . How much money do you spend on groceries in a year. My family $8,000. Man, i'm not eating ever again. That's crazy!  Bottom line. Have fun and collect as you go!

I've been playing casual, slowly collecting, reading the books. Now i'm at a point where my collection allows me to be competitve. Just go with it. Do your best and have fun. We tone it down for newer guys. I'll play straight out of 1 core set and still have fun! I love the books. I love this game.

Side note: Any of you hear of a game called Bowl Bound. It's a football tabletop with charts and dice. This idea was created over 30 years ago by a couple college students. They approached a professor, who was a Math Wiz, to create a game based on actual football stats. This game in my opinion took more of a genious to come up with  than Magic. I like the game, but i love thrones better. I love the complicated nature of the game, the FAQ's( without K-tom we'd sill be in the dark) the art, the dealmaking. EVerything!. For anyone to call this game stale? Well that's cool. It also sucks if there's no other gamers in your area

I found this game online. I was searching for a strategy card based game that wasn't magic. I came across AGOT. Found out there was books too. Sweet! I sent away for it and told my friend to come check this new game i got. Both really excited about it from 1st game on. WE shared the expenses for our gaming group. Mostly casual.There was a time when we'd play every day into early morning!  Gamers came and went. WE started talking to local game stores. WE told them we want to promote thrones on a regular basis, will you help us out? I'm getting sick of seeing Friday Night Magic monopolizing gaming time and space at all the stores( something to be learned from Magic Marketing though!). " Sure" they said and we've been having AgOT every Monday since. 

MInd you it was slow going. First month and half it was just me showing up  to demo to no one. I advertised on the store's facebook page, told everyone i met every monday nights down there. Tonns of people love the books or show, said they'd love to play the game. At our Hal-con the store owners told some Navy guys about AGOT that started up. Now they game with us. In last 2 months there have been 5 new gamers from monday night Thrones. Got in touch with someone who lived couple towns away. He started an LCG hub for our province. 25 members right now in 6 months! Just held our first tourney and had 8 players, only 8 because there was a snow storm. Found out there is a new league that started in our neighbouring province, N.B. In total there's around 20 thrones players in these 2 provinces. That's not to mention every second person who comes into the shops play the game casually. It's growing really well here especially considering the population. We have a meetup site where i promote gaming nights and tourneys. New faces from that as well. . WE're in the process of help organizing LCG event for our next Hal-COn. DEmo's banners, sponsors prizes, hopefully tournaments. I'm Psyched! If we get the regionals here, that would be awesome for promoting the game

  What am i saying? If you love the game and you're lacking the players, do your own promoting. YOu'd be surprised.            CHEERS!

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snaggrriss said:

  What am i saying? If you love the game and you're lacking the players, do your own promoting. YOu'd be surprised.            CHEERS!

Look, I'll be honest. I was you at one point. I have done similar things to what you've done. You're probably still in the phase where it doesn't feel futile. There will be an inflection point, though. And that inflection point will either make what you're doing seem incredibly worthwhile or make it seem futile. The trend right now will be towards futile. AGoT is a dying game, community wise, without people like you and there simply are not enough people like you for AGoT in contrast to the number of people like you for Netrunner, Magic, and any number of other highly successful, high visibility games. The WoW card game is probably more successful than AGoT.

Everyone is making the argument for why people should stick to LCGs, but I haven't heard one valid argument for AGoT specifically vs. a generic LCG game (Netrunner is the real beast and will probably outsell AGoT in perpetuity).

If you love AGoT, more power to you. I really don't care. I'm making no argument against enjoying AGoT. I am saying this game is not competitive with a similar card game coming out of its own company. I would be willing to bet that Netrunner sales are at least twice as much as AGoT. I would be very curious to take a poll of everyone who has played both games and see who prefers what. Of the 4 AGoT players in our meta who tried Netrunner when it came out, 2 have quit AGoT (including myself) and 2 have kept playing AGoT.

I am saying that there is no way in hell I would ever recommend AGoT to a friend of mine in its current state. There is literally no reason for me to do so. The game has no economic benefit over Netrunner. The game has an almost non-existent meta in my area (same 4 - 6 people for years now). The card pool is miserably unfun. I rarely feel like I could have played better and won a game of AGoT. The Netrunner community has about 16 - 20 regulars (5 times the AGoT community). The Netrunner community has regular tournaments. It has support from the local FLGS. There are good people in the Netrunner community, just like in the AGoT community. Most importantly, every game of Netrunner I feel like I could have played better and improved my chances of winning. I enjoy the actual playing of the game. That is something I didn't get from AGoT even in the last year I was actually playing it. I would've gladly brought Glory to Rome, Innovation, hell even Raw Deal out with me, but they loved AGoT and so I played it.

The bottom line is that if this game maintains the status quo it seems likely to go the way of Vampire with a little more company support. There will always be a community that loves it, but that will pretty much be all there is. The public eye has moved on and this game's current state won't get the public eye back.

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It is growing in our area, I actually think with the TV show becoming more popular than ever there will actually be a boon in player expansion (will they all stay..no, but lots will)

I do agree however that without a set cycle or rotation of current legal meta, newer players will always be behind the 8 ball to catch up to card pools by players that have been around since the start. But that is not the case yet…well at least not here

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So:  Is thrones affordable to begin playing? That's what this whole thread is about. Compared to what? Compared to Magic- Hell yeah! Compared to Netrunner, Star wars and what ever new LCG comes out? No, of course not. That's because there's only 3 core sets and a couple of expansions to collect and you can play competitively no prob. But let's take Netrunner and other LCG's  5 years down the road. What do you think the threads on the  message boards are going to look like? You are correct. We are going to be talking about the same issues. 60 expansions to buy, stale cards, stale metas etc. I think the people who make the arguments about the price to get all the cards, perhaps are OCD, Just bulid with what you have and try to have fun.

I've bought 2 core sets of netrunner and the first expansion was given to me. I really enjoy the game. If you look at my profile it is # 3 on my favorites right now. I'm part of and LCG hub in Nova Scotia for all LCG's and we try to support  and promote all LCG's. We're not putting down the others choice, We are promoting a format of gaming that we feel is superior to other formats out there at the moment.

Everyone knows by now this netrunner is designed by the same man who designed Magic. The man revolutionalized card gaming as we know it. I thank him. i love strategy in card format. 18 years later though the ccgs feel like a money pit and arms race. Let me ask you this. How many Netrunner fans do you think are biased  in favor of  netrunner BECAUSE it was made by garfield? My opinion is most netrunner fans were sick of ccg but infatuated with garfield and jumped at this game when they found out it had his signature on it, If we're talking stale, i've found netrunner getting a tad stale and it's only been on the shelf for few months. The bluffing aspect is cool. but… Thrones just introduced naval enhancements with bluffing too. Score Thrones! I've got my core set and i'll pull that out and play with local gamers if they're looking for a game.

But if i want to invest in something you want to look at the longterm. Which is a better investment choice. Investing in a company that is 3 months old? Or one that is established and steadily growing. Is it going to be a good long burning flame or a fire cracker. Bright and shortly fizzle out. I'm not telling anyone what they should buy. But make sure you really love it and take a step back. Is this infatuation? Or is true love! Any hobby is a considerable investment..It should not be rushed into. And don't do it out of peer pressure.

  Let's look at Thrones against other lcg's 10 years down the road. My prediction? Thrones is going to see slow steady growth. Do you know how many MArtin fans that are surprised to find out "there's a card game?" . So when the other 30 million people who read the books and like gaming find out about AGOT, there's still a huge fan base still not even tapped!  A huge thing thrones has going for it that other games don'ts  is:  it's based on George R. Martins books. When that genious of a man is dead his fantasy work will live on as a classic on the same level as Tolkien. Too bold of a statement? Time will tell. Even if the competitive side of Thrones( which i never believe will) dies off, there's still tons and tons of Nedly players who will continue to play this game to replay their favorite Characters and stories.  I feel bad for those who feel jilted over spending money on a game they loved only to be left by themselves in an area with gamers who change games and interest with the seasons. Unfortunately some of the arguments against thrones are based on a sole meta and it is too early to make predictions on the future of Thrones. IN my area thrones and netrunner are selling off the shelves quicker than they can restock. Netrunner is hot, but the thrones player base is still larger!

I hear a lot of people come through the game stores and they ask " I'm thinking of getting into a game, what should i get into?" And there friends quickly tell them " Oh, Magic, there's ….." why do they tell them magic? Is it because it has better card quality? No. Better game mechanics? No. easier on the pocketbook? No.Because It has more players. What kind of reason is that. I invested money in CCg before and i know the feeling after years of investment. I'm cautious about trying to convince someone thrones is the best. I'm doing it now because this is a THRONES Message board so this is an appropriate place to voice my opinions stronger than normal! If someone's going to play this i  want people to join because they love MArtin or the game itself. They'll enjoy it longer and hopefully feel no regrets over any money they invested. But hey I'm no prophet and Melisandre didn't know how to call it perfectly either. Stannis? Really?

So any of you out there tired of where you live or with ;your local meta. Move to Nova Sotia. Great Place. And if you LIke this game, you'll always have some guys to game with.              - CHEERS EH! 

 

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snaggrriss said:

So:  Is thrones affordable to begin playing? That's what this whole thread is about. Compared to what? Compared to Magic- Hell yeah! Compared to Netrunner, Star wars and what ever new LCG comes out? No, of course not. That's because there's only 3 core sets and a couple of expansions to collect and you can play competitively no prob. But let's take Netrunner and other LCG's  5 years down the road. What do you think the threads on the  message boards are going to look like? You are correct. We are going to be talking about the same issues. 60 expansions to buy, stale cards, stale metas etc. I think the people who make the arguments about the price to get all the cards, perhaps are OCD, Just bulid with what you have and try to have fun.

I've bought 2 core sets of netrunner and the first expansion was given to me. I really enjoy the game. If you look at my profile it is # 3 on my favorites right now. I'm part of and LCG hub in Nova Scotia for all LCG's and we try to support  and promote all LCG's. We're not putting down the others choice, We are promoting a format of gaming that we feel is superior to other formats out there at the moment.

Everyone knows by now this netrunner is designed by the same man who designed Magic. The man revolutionalized card gaming as we know it. I thank him. i love strategy in card format. 18 years later though the ccgs feel like a money pit and arms race. Let me ask you this. How many Netrunner fans do you think are biased  in favor of  netrunner BECAUSE it was made by garfield? My opinion is most netrunner fans were sick of ccg but infatuated with garfield and jumped at this game when they found out it had his signature on it, If we're talking stale, i've found netrunner getting a tad stale and it's only been on the shelf for few months. The bluffing aspect is cool. but… Thrones just introduced naval enhancements with bluffing too. Score Thrones! I've got my core set and i'll pull that out and play with local gamers if they're looking for a game.

But if i want to invest in something you want to look at the longterm. Which is a better investment choice. Investing in a company that is 3 months old? Or one that is established and steadily growing. Is it going to be a good long burning flame or a fire cracker. Bright and shortly fizzle out. I'm not telling anyone what they should buy. But make sure you really love it and take a step back. Is this infatuation? Or is true love! Any hobby is a considerable investment..It should not be rushed into. And don't do it out of peer pressure.

  Let's look at Thrones against other lcg's 10 years down the road. My prediction? Thrones is going to see slow steady growth. Do you know how many MArtin fans that are surprised to find out "there's a card game?" . So when the other 30 million people who read the books and like gaming find out about AGOT, there's still a huge fan base still not even tapped!  A huge thing thrones has going for it that other games don'ts  is:  it's based on George R. Martins books. When that genious of a man is dead his fantasy work will live on as a classic on the same level as Tolkien. Too bold of a statement? Time will tell. Even if the competitive side of Thrones( which i never believe will) dies off, there's still tons and tons of Nedly players who will continue to play this game to replay their favorite Characters and stories.  I feel bad for those who feel jilted over spending money on a game they loved only to be left by themselves in an area with gamers who change games and interest with the seasons. Unfortunately some of the arguments against thrones are based on a sole meta and it is too early to make predictions on the future of Thrones. IN my area thrones and netrunner are selling off the shelves quicker than they can restock. Netrunner is hot, but the thrones player base is still larger!

I hear a lot of people come through the game stores and they ask " I'm thinking of getting into a game, what should i get into?" And there friends quickly tell them " Oh, Magic, there's ….." why do they tell them magic? Is it because it has better card quality? No. Better game mechanics? No. easier on the pocketbook? No.Because It has more players. What kind of reason is that. I invested money in CCg before and i know the feeling after years of investment. I'm cautious about trying to convince someone thrones is the best. I'm doing it now because this is a THRONES Message board so this is an appropriate place to voice my opinions stronger than normal! If someone's going to play this i  want people to join because they love MArtin or the game itself. They'll enjoy it longer and hopefully feel no regrets over any money they invested. But hey I'm no prophet and Melisandre didn't know how to call it perfectly either. Stannis? Really?

So any of you out there tired of where you live or with ;your local meta. Move to Nova Sotia. Great Place. And if you LIke this game, you'll always have some guys to game with.              - CHEERS EH! 

 

On your assertion that thrones is cheaper to start playing than Magic: I can't believe you say hell yea. Again, random guy can buy a $15 magic starter deck or a $40 Thrones box. Winner - Magic

On the naval mechanic being a bluffing mechanic: I'm sorry, but this is laughable. This is what the naval mechanic is going to boil down to. Does it benefit me to win this challenge by using the character with a naval icon? Yes? I use it. No? I don't use it. There won't be any bluffing. It will only be catch-22s of blocking a strength 3 character with 11 strength because of a naval character or accepting a Terminal Schemes, No quarter, <insert absurd removal effect here>.

Bluffing involves presenting a situation to your opponent that they must then choose whether to call your bluff or not. A strength 4 power challenge with no Seductive Promise in hand is a bluff. It will almost always be a smart play and I will almost never call the bluff (i. e. I will defend with at least 1 strength) because of the risk-reward factor. The naval icon circumvents the whole bluffing aspect. You don't swing for a strength 11 challenge and force them to call the bluff. You swing for a strength 3 challenge that can become a strength 11. That just forces sub-optimal play on your opponent. That is not bluffing.

On the flip side, Netrunner is pure bluffing. I play NBN. I lay down an asset in my server. Is that a Melange? Is it a Breaking News? Is it an AstroScript? If I don't run it, do they win the game? If I do run it, do I waste 10 credits? The ability to quickly assess risk-reward based on current game conditions is one of the core elements of Netrunner. It is not one of the core elements of A Game of Thrones currently. If it were, I would love A Game of Thrones. My favorite part of A Game of Thrones is being efficient at challenges. Right now, being good at the actual challenge phase process (knowing how many characters your opponent can and can't defend with) is relatively meaningless. You do all this calculation to realize that one Game of Cyvasse screws it all up and go "Well f%@ it, I'm all in or I won't win this." Or worse, you play a perfect challenge phase then get hit by Westeros Bleeds. Or perpetual Bear Island. But you can play solutions to those! Oh wait, you have to draw them. There is no game framework that you can take advantage of. So basically it boils down to build deck, watch deck execute. Rinse and repeat. I enjoy playing the game. I don't enjoy my deck playing me.

Also, saying that something popular like Netrunner (which, by the way, has been around for about 20 years) will fizzle out quickly is a silly argument. Magic was the fad back in the day and it's still here and still the most popular game 20 years later. I would not be surprised to see Netrunner maintain it's current popularity or even grow it. Lucas has been impressive in his short time at FFG. He basically revived LotR. I would be shocked if he screws up Netrunner. I have all the respect in the world for Nate French's and Damon's efforts on this game, but Lucas has shown them up so far (in my opinion) and in a much shorter time.

And does Magic have better card quality? The simple answer is yes. I mean really, is that even a legit question. You're talking about a game where, literally, FLAVOR TEXT gets scrutinized to the nth degree. There was a misprint on one card's flavor text in the last cycle and it got RIPPED for it. Then you look at the quality of cards here and it's a mess. "Wtf? That's how that card works?!" is common. you introduce a new person to this game and then you tell them how pretty much all their intuition on how cards work is flat out wrong. Also, Magic does have better game mechanics. This game revolves around two original game mechanics (the challenges phase and the dominance phase). Everything else has been done before (and most of it in Magic). I'd bet even the challenges and dominance phase have been done before, I've just never played the game.

As to having more players, what kind of reason is that? The best reason. You have to have someone to play against for a game to even mean something. I wanted badly to play Blood Bowl when I was a kid. My parents steered me to Warhammer 40K because there were a lot of people playing it and man am I glad they did. NO ONE at my FLGS played Blood Bowl. Had I bought it instead of 40K, I would've never gotten to play and probably quit gaming altogether.

And as for loving Martin. I love A Song of Ice and Fire. That should be the LAST reason people play A Game of Thrones. The first reason should be because the game itself is brilliant. It currently isn't.

And to the local meta argument. If your local meta is thriving more power to you. The greater meta is not thriving. I would not be shocked to see the Star Wars and Netrunner tournaments at Gencon make AGoT look like a joke. I would love to see the tournament attendance numbers for AGoT and compare them to Magic and the like. It would probably not be pretty. It may grow, and that may be a testament to the community being strong, but I'd like to see that pan out before I'm willing to commit to any praise of this game's marketing efforts. Either way, if your local meta is at a point where introducing new players isn't a problem, go for it. In NYC, they can play Star Wars or Netrunner instead.

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There's a great deal of content here to concur with or refute, but at the moment, I'm just going to mention the one that seems obvious to me.

 

The plot deck isn't a mechanic that you find unique to AGoT? I've played quite a few games (a bit of a dead game junky) and haven't seen anything like it myself. I'm curious what I missed.

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Is Netrunner pure bluffing. yes. Bluffing in thrones is more in plot phase, which is a very important part of the game. Challenge phase the bluffing is through what events you might be holding. YOu say the challenge phase a little predictable. What about in netrunner when i call your bluffs and reveal your ice, then it's just resource speed bumps after that. There's cards to reveal what you're hiding to counter those bluffs. After that it's " i need 10 resources to make a run and 5 to trash that annoying herring and then steal you're agenda and gamble it's not agressive secretary."

I'm glad you're still  part of the gaming community by choosing warhammer. Let's take a sport i hate. I hate soccer. I DO love football . Where i live they play soccer every week. They even rent a gym to play it indoors during the winter. (You're probably scratching your head"i thought he lives in Canada and everyone plays hockey?") Now personally i love football. It seems i'm living in the wrong country.I will play soccer every once and a while but never really enjoy it. I do it for the exercise. There's not enough friends to play ( unless you join some touch league Bb), so twice a year we take a trip to meet some other guys and get a couple weekends of football in. I refuse to support soccer because i think it's a sissy sport. Should i play  because more people are playing it? NO! It's still a sissy sport( in my opinion it's ballet on cleats. I apologize if i offended any). Every time i play i feel like i would enjoy myself more running stairs. I believe it's better to play something you enjoy even if it's with only 1 other person. the only flaw with this argument is if they move away on you, then yes, playing because of more people does carry some weight. But then that goes against why we play games- for fun. But then there's the uber competitve player type who play a game because of the better prizes.

You're actually the first person who's defended Magics game mechanics.  If only they spent the same attention to details as the flavor text. You're really going to argue the monetary advantages of Magic? c'mon!

So why are you still on the thrones message boards? If you don't like it leave. Come back when you get bored of Netrunner. Also about the deck playing you. How did you fare at worlds. I wasn't there. i'm not a tier 1 deck builder. If John Bruno was here telling me the flaws of the game i would do some soul searching. But hey , what can i say , I love this game. Been playing for few years. Keeps on getting better. Even after i've played considerable amount of other lcgs.  Something to be said about bruno playing both games though.  I'm happy that you like magic and netrunner.-- CHEERS

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I tried net runner one time but it ended up being about as much fun as a scrotal rash.

I also don't know anybody that plays netrunner and everyone I play with plays agot.

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snaggrriss said:

Is Netrunner pure bluffing. yes. Bluffing in thrones is more in plot phase, which is a very important part of the game. Challenge phase the bluffing is through what events you might be holding. YOu say the challenge phase a little predictable. What about in netrunner when i call your bluffs and reveal your ice, then it's just resource speed bumps after that. There's cards to reveal what you're hiding to counter those bluffs. After that it's " i need 10 resources to make a run and 5 to trash that annoying herring and then steal you're agenda and gamble it's not agressive secretary."

I'm glad you're still  part of the gaming community by choosing warhammer. Let's take a sport i hate. I hate soccer. I DO love football . Where i live they play soccer every week. They even rent a gym to play it indoors during the winter. (You're probably scratching your head"i thought he lives in Canada and everyone plays hockey?") Now personally i love football. It seems i'm living in the wrong country.I will play soccer every once and a while but never really enjoy it. I do it for the exercise. There's not enough friends to play ( unless you join some touch league Bb), so twice a year we take a trip to meet some other guys and get a couple weekends of football in. I refuse to support soccer because i think it's a sissy sport. Should i play  because more people are playing it? NO! It's still a sissy sport( in my opinion it's ballet on cleats. I apologize if i offended any). Every time i play i feel like i would enjoy myself more running stairs. I believe it's better to play something you enjoy even if it's with only 1 other person. the only flaw with this argument is if they move away on you, then yes, playing because of more people does carry some weight. But then that goes against why we play games- for fun. But then there's the uber competitve player type who play a game because of the better prizes.

You're actually the first person who's defended Magics game mechanics.  If only they spent the same attention to details as the flavor text. You're really going to argue the monetary advantages of Magic? c'mon!

So why are you still on the thrones message boards? If you don't like it leave. Come back when you get bored of Netrunner. Also about the deck playing you. How did you fare at worlds. I wasn't there. i'm not a tier 1 deck builder. If John Bruno was here telling me the flaws of the game i would do some soul searching. But hey , what can i say , I love this game. Been playing for few years. Keeps on getting better. Even after i've played considerable amount of other lcgs.  Something to be said about bruno playing both games though.  I'm happy that you like magic and netrunner.-- CHEERS

snaggrriss said:

Is Netrunner pure bluffing. yes. Bluffing in thrones is more in plot phase, which is a very important part of the game. Challenge phase the bluffing is through what events you might be holding. YOu say the challenge phase a little predictable. What about in netrunner when i call your bluffs and reveal your ice, then it's just resource speed bumps after that. There's cards to reveal what you're hiding to counter those bluffs. After that it's " i need 10 resources to make a run and 5 to trash that annoying herring and then steal you're agenda and gamble it's not agressive secretary."

I'm glad you're still  part of the gaming community by choosing warhammer. Let's take a sport i hate. I hate soccer. I DO love football . Where i live they play soccer every week. They even rent a gym to play it indoors during the winter. (You're probably scratching your head"i thought he lives in Canada and everyone plays hockey?") Now personally i love football. It seems i'm living in the wrong country.I will play soccer every once and a while but never really enjoy it. I do it for the exercise. There's not enough friends to play ( unless you join some touch league Bb), so twice a year we take a trip to meet some other guys and get a couple weekends of football in. I refuse to support soccer because i think it's a sissy sport. Should i play  because more people are playing it? NO! It's still a sissy sport( in my opinion it's ballet on cleats. I apologize if i offended any). Every time i play i feel like i would enjoy myself more running stairs. I believe it's better to play something you enjoy even if it's with only 1 other person. the only flaw with this argument is if they move away on you, then yes, playing because of more people does carry some weight. But then that goes against why we play games- for fun. But then there's the uber competitve player type who play a game because of the better prizes.

You're actually the first person who's defended Magics game mechanics.  If only they spent the same attention to details as the flavor text. You're really going to argue the monetary advantages of Magic? c'mon!

So why are you still on the thrones message boards? If you don't like it leave. Come back when you get bored of Netrunner. Also about the deck playing you. How did you fare at worlds. I wasn't there. i'm not a tier 1 deck builder. If John Bruno was here telling me the flaws of the game i would do some soul searching. But hey , what can i say , I love this game. Been playing for few years. Keeps on getting better. Even after i've played considerable amount of other lcgs.  Something to be said about bruno playing both games though.  I'm happy that you like magic and netrunner.-- CHEERS

@Kennon regarding plots - I'm not sure I'd call it unique. I played Raw Deal (which came out before A Game of Thrones) and they had a whole pre-game phase that involved revealing cards similar to the plot phase. The plot phase really plays out as an advanced game of Rock, Paper, Scissors. I'm not knocking the plot phase, but I am definitely saying that it's not the most unique thing in the world. It's good for what it is, but you could take it out of the game and I'd probably still enjoy it. The plot phase is currently the phase of super powerful, non-cancellable game effects. I prefer more incremental effects that add up to something significant than the bang of single card effects.

As for the soccer analogy, I'm referring to a player who has no bias and doesn't know anything about either game. Let's say a random person wants to play a sport, but doesn't know anything about sports. They see that soccer is really popular and gridiron football isn't. Why would they choose gridiron football in your area (hell, why wouldn't they choose hockey)? People with a pre-set bias have a reason to do something to which their bias tends. Someone with no bias will tend towards the path of least resistance (in this case soccer or hockey, in gaming it would be Magic).

I can't believe anyone would attack the actual game mechanics of Magic. That's like attacking Citizen Kane as a movie. You're talking about a game that is considered one of the best games of all time and is what originated the whole card game craze. Of course the mechanics are dated, they're 20 years old. On the other hand, they have been pretty much unchanged since the advent of the game and yet the game is still the most popular one out there. Hell, most of this game is based off of Magic mechanics. They made a decision to NOT use LIFO (a decision I disagree with). They made a decision to have only one Marshalling phase (magic has two). They made a decision to not have characters actually hurt each other (in Magic they do). There are so many comparable aspects of this (or any) card game to Magic that it's difficult to not give Magic credit for it's obviously outstanding mechanics. Magic plays incredibly well as a gaming system, whether or not the cards are being designed well. The AGoT system is a hot mess compared to the simple elegance of LIFO.

I'm not sure why my performance at Worlds matters in a theoretical conversation. I don't play tier 1 decks because they're all uninteresting to me. They involve playing a combination of cards that is hyper-powered compared to the more thematic cards. I'm a Timmy-Spike, not a Spike. You should also be aware that John Bruno has retired from these boards since about a year ago, if I recall correctly. If he actually posted here he might have something to say and I would listen. I did not attend worlds because I do not enjoy the game. I wish I had played at Gencon so I could actually confront these questions with an answer of "I did well." I had a very consistent Bear Island/Kindly Man deck that would've been fun to play.

I can tell you I was the fourth place player in the Gencon Icebreaker tournament for Netrunner and lost to the eventual winner in the playoffs. I am a competent and experienced card game player.  I achieved Rival in WoW during the first season of arena (top 15% of arena 2 v 2 players on my server group). I was a key person in my guild getting to and being able to defeat C'thun. I created the strategy for defeating Chromagus in Blackwing Lair and for defeating Battleguard Sartura in Ahn Qiraj, two of the most complicated bosses strategically. My resume for gaming goes on.

Why am I still on the Thrones message boards? Because I want to support people who call them out on their decisions so that there is actual conversation around it and point it out when there isn't.. I want to support negative, constructive criticism and make sure there is some. The more reinforcement an idea gets, the more consideration it gets from designers. I am looking forward to playing AGoT again with this new FAQ. It's people that actually and constructively point things out that have an effect. Saying something mocking and condescending just looks petty.

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mdc273 said:

I can't believe anyone would attack the actual game mechanics of Magic. That's like attacking Citizen Kane as a movie. You're talking about a game that is considered one of the best games of all time and is what originated the whole card game craze. Of course the mechanics are dated, they're 20 years old. On the other hand, they have been pretty much unchanged since the advent of the game and yet the game is still the most popular one out there. Hell, most of this game is based off of Magic mechanics. They made a decision to NOT use LIFO (a decision I disagree with). They made a decision to have only one Marshalling phase (magic has two). They made a decision to not have characters actually hurt each other (in Magic they do). There are so many comparable aspects of this (or any) card game to Magic that it's difficult to not give Magic credit for it's obviously outstanding mechanics. Magic plays incredibly well as a gaming system, whether or not the cards are being designed well. The AGoT system is a hot mess compared to the simple elegance of LIFO.

I'm not sure I would compare Magic to Citizen Kane. First, the movie is more interesting than a game of Magic. Second, I would more likely say Magic is more like Birth of a Nation and GoT is more like Schindler's List. The former is important in the development of card games (or movies) but there's something repellant about it. The latter certainly stand's on the shoulders of its predecessor's but made something much more uplifting.

As someone who started casually playing Magic again (stopped because of money) my opinion of the game is unchanged. Its not a bad way to pass the time but its still a game about resource and card starvation. You get one card a turn and you're not guaranteed resources. I imagine a well tuned deck avoids these problems but such a thing costs money. Game of Thrones is a game where resources and draw are guaranteed thus placing more emphasis on player decisions. There's also a great deal more depth to it than Magic. Amongst other card games I've played (Warhammer, Netrunner, Star Wars, Vs, Vampire), Magic is worse than all of them.

Magic continues to be beloved for no other reason than inertia. Its a solid enough game and its well supported and advertised. The lower complexity level of the game may also appeal to more casual players.

GoT's still could use a lot more clamping down on certain things but even as I get frustrated with a few gaffes here and there, the cards are generally more interesting now than in older chapter packs.

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playgroundpsychotic said:

I'm not sure I would compare Magic to Citizen Kane. First, the movie is more interesting than a game of Magic. Second, I would more likely say Magic is more like Birth of a Nation and GoT is more like Schindler's List. The former is important in the development of card games (or movies) but there's something repellant about it. The latter certainly stand's on the shoulders of its predecessor's but made something much more uplifting.

As someone who started casually playing Magic again (stopped because of money) my opinion of the game is unchanged. Its not a bad way to pass the time but its still a game about resource and card starvation. You get one card a turn and you're not guaranteed resources. I imagine a well tuned deck avoids these problems but such a thing costs money. Game of Thrones is a game where resources and draw are guaranteed thus placing more emphasis on player decisions. There's also a great deal more depth to it than Magic. Amongst other card games I've played (Warhammer, Netrunner, Star Wars, Vs, Vampire), Magic is worse than all of them.

Magic continues to be beloved for no other reason than inertia. Its a solid enough game and its well supported and advertised. The lower complexity level of the game may also appeal to more casual players.

GoT's still could use a lot more clamping down on certain things but even as I get frustrated with a few gaffes here and there, the cards are generally more interesting now than in older chapter packs.

I'm more comparing Magic mechanics to Citizen Kane than the actual gameplay. Mechanically speaking (that is to ignore all the cards) Magic is what every card game pretty much draws its basic concepts from.

I grew tired of Magic as well. It's mostly an exercise in deck construction. AGoT game became that way for me, though. The actual challenges phase had reached a point where it was less important than deck construction. The only interesting phase for me had become the plot phase where I pretty much mastered Loyalty Money Can Buy and Forgotten Plans. That's, maybe, twice a game that I found something interesting to do. The FAQ will hopefully change that.

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