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Baalkaedran

Underpowered Moritat?

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ArcCain said:

[…]DH is an ARPG[…]

And there we have completly different points of view. For me DH is a RPG about Investigation. If you want a 40k line that is focused on action I would suggest OW, DW and even RT to some degree. In DH you are an acolythe, a tool of investigation. You are serving an Inquisitor and in your role combat is an element but not your purpose, for this "simple" task an Inquisitor can deploy inquisitorial Kill-Teams or demand support from local forces if he want to.

2: They do cause burning effects the longer you let them stay on the wound. And they "burn" the flesh out by destroying the molecular bonds of matter, they do not rend or cut like a regular blade would.

3; I never stated that Death Cultists do not use advanced weapons, I stated that Moritat wont use them. They are a special career, not the majority of this role. And the enty more or less talks about "primitve" weapons (should have used quotes here) for the majority of bladed weapons are in fact primitive. Later on they get Mono/Lathe upgrade but more or less they stay the same. Power weapons are a complelty different category (hence you need the specific talent for them). But if you like starting careers that much and refer to them all the time though just look at the moritat career. Does it grant the power weapon talent? No, they rely on their primitive melee weapons talent. (And the gear of starting equipment only covers a wide array of equipment or do you realy belive 66% of all guardsman are equiped with muskets ors bows? Are you serious?) The starting gear only tries to allow you to play different cliches, but it is no mandatory law that says: YOu get it, you have to use it! Every Guardsman I know was instantly droping all the weapons that did not suit his homeworld for example. And yes, a power sword is still a sword, but unless it is turned off it has not blade, and this is the problem for the moritat.

(4.) Well, we dont play like that. We do not say: I want to melee, what class offers the most bonus to that. We play roles and develope them. If someone plays a Guardsman he invests in some BS, but if he becomes an Officer and wants to portrait the chainsword swinging Sarge then he spents some WS. If someone plays a moritat he does not choose him for his special skills or talents in the first place but he offers a given set to actualy play a dedicated death cultist with some nice aspects of faith and the struggle he might have on his travail. For sure there are always some meta-aspects, but to always aim for the best, as you mentioned it is one thing: Min-maxing. I do not say it is a bad thing per se, but that is what it is. You even agreed with me though you used another word for it. And the reaping as a spin attack does include several enemies but in my opinion he is still an ASSASSIN, not a murder-servitor. This talent is usefull if things go horrible wrong but do you realy think of body-glove wearing assassins in the middle of a combat zone? An ASSASSIN? Another point where we have complelty different opinions. For my opinion an Assassin is an Assassin, for you it is something different, a Brute of some kind… and again I have to propose the Guardsman… this career also gets all important melee talents, even more of the important ones than the assassin though later on. And he actualy might wear a heavy armor and this is what you are talking about, at least in my opinion. This is the class for the thick of melee.

And about the Daemon-Stuff or Power Armors that seem to appear quite often in your games… well, you made DH an ARPG… I guess the concept of battles that cant be won and the existence of always a bigger fish is something strange to you. Also you speak of "crippeling" I speak of actual roleplay. Not everything is pro or balanced. Heck… if I would be crippled for every character that has his own limits by choice… and Moritat is perfect for stealth… a power or chain weapons make so much noice… no wonder that you have no stealth elements… a moritat with tearing can use some BLADED weapons with devastating efficency. But it seems you are not playing a DH inquisitorial investigation cell but a kill team.

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Actually, the book say´s it is a ARPG, yes you can and should run investigation missions etc to keep things fresh but the more a story arc progresses there is less focus on learning stuff and more of a focus on facing and stoping what ever you are fighting. And it really comes down to the players how they want to handle something.

2: Still makes it easier to cut through your enemys, but here´s a question; How do you use a power sword? By shopping and slicing just like a sword, what is the Moritat good with? Swords and why do they get the natural tearing? For being bad ass with swords. The type of damage is unimportant as long as the weapon is used as other edged weapons. It is there natural skill not the weapon they use that grants them tearing.

3: Being a Moritat just changes your start and back ground other than that you are a regular assassin and the Moritat Reaper is a add on, you can still gain power weapon training from the core path in DH. Pluss after reading up on the Moritat´s lore in IH it seem pretty clear to me that they are mostly fighters, and there was no mention of using just primitive weapons there either. I don´t get the guardmen thing your saying. The starting gear is free so like it or not there is litle reason to not grab it and yes you can customize your starter set. A power sword is still a sword that has a uppgrade, it still functions just like a sword when it comes to killing people with it.

Having all the Moritat game knowlidge in the back of my head from just reading the book I can understand that some people missunderstands what it is saying but again, a power sword is still a sword, it has a edge, it´s fine. The Moritat´s code dose say that he/she should be fair when fighting enemy´s in single combat or challenges, (1v1), to prove him/her self. By the time a Assassin can get a power weapon he won´t be going after the small fish and if you want to RP it he could be a bit like a Witcher where he/she only uses normal, mono/lathes, power weapons against enemys of diffrent threat and armour. That I think would be a cool idea plus it gives him a RP reason to carry so many weapons.

4: True but not for the Moritat, all they have to fall back on is arrows, throw weapons and melee, they don´t get much leeway in how they can build. And there is nothing saying that a Assassin can´t carry armour, but they will rarely go beond Body-gloves and flack armour. And Assassins are not brutres, they are skilled "artists" who kill with skill able to go upp against multiple enemy´s and still be able to win. Actually a Assassin is just a more expensive murder-servitor that kills when ordered to. Depending on how you want to RP it, some do some don´t.

I don´t know where you get that power weapons make so much noise, they do produse some light and noise but this is easely masked but a city´s every day sounds.

Actually, my campaing has been running for over 1 and a half years now and my Cell has only ever met two demons, (1 just happend thanks to a massive PoW), and three emeny´s using power weapons, (A Eldar, a Heretek and a Sector Crime Lord). The rest has been quite ordinery, only know have I uppgraded enemy weapons so that they can harm the Cell. There is no point in playing if you can´t "win", although what winning is may depend on the situation.

What your cell will face really comes down to what Ordo your in.

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2. They are good with bladed weapons, but they are not this good with non bladed weapon. Just as a mace is a blut weapon a power weapon is - badatsum - a power weapon. It is a complelty different technology. And just because it has a traditional design that is actually not used in combat when turned on it is no bladed weapon. It is their skill, yes, but they are skilled with a particular kind of design of weapon, and that is bladed weapons. Not weapons that use a fancy power field.

3. YOu are just hilaroius. At one point you argue that the starting gear defines a career, you said because a death cultist gets his hands on power weapons in ascention and because this is a favourable roll for a moritat this includes that he should be able to use power weapons. But when I tell you that starting gear is just a made up all-round pack you do not have to take serious or view as role defining you argue back with my own words? Funny mate. And no, a power sword is not just a sword with an upgrade. Any common bladed weapon would be instantly destroyed if you attach a power field generator for this weapon is, in most designs, still a conduit for the field. These weapons were made as power weapons, you do not simply take a sharp stick of metal, attach something and call it a power weapon. And is is NOT working like a sword. There is a huge difference between a field of energy ripping appart your molecules and a piece of metal that has been trusted into your guts. In most parts of the RP this makes no difference, but for the moritat it does. For the power weapon does NOT cut with a BLADE it cuts with a POWER FIELD it HAS NO EDGE that is used in combat unless turned off. Pretty simple.

Also nothing speaks against carrying a power blade with him, for  he is allowed to use such equipment outside of his creed if he is not able to harm is foe otherwise, though his tearing does not apply. Fine with that.

4. Also i never said Assassins were brutes, most of the guardsmen are. And if your moritat stays always on the frontline fighting fancy around I just ask what kind of assassin he is? Well, none I gues. He fullfills the role of a brute and a guardsman would suit this more if you actualy do not stealth and… well… assassinate… or what is the job of this profession? And a murder servitor, at least a decent one, is more expensive than an assassin… and more reliable, well for this task only. See… just a brute.

And where I get from that power weapons make noise? They do, lotsa novels discribe how they crackle and the more powerfull ones even howl when turned on though not that loud as chain weapons would. But even more they smell like ozon and can illuminate their souroundings. Yea… perfect weapon for an Assassin.

And there is no point in playing if you cant win? Realy?! So you GM tailors every situation that you just can rush in? Heck, there are 20 Arbitges, armed with Carapce and Full-Auto-Shotguns and you still start a fight from a position at a disadvantage? Your NPCs are to stupid to set  up an ambush to deal with this pesky Akolythes? I am not talkin about railroading the defeat of the group or taking every chance from them to spot the situation. But there is always a bigger fish. There is always a fight they simply cant win… but yea. you made your point pretty clear. DH is an action rpgs and the group has to steamroll everything or "win" in the end (in my opinion staying alive is always a win), and fights that are to difficult make everything pointless.

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Well playing a very conservative ultra fanatic Moritat, I will admit he has a power blade, but he has not used it for combat but to cut thur objects to get his enemies.

 

And Alaric is not a social PC at all.. His social skills: 

Medicae - because should require u and another person

Interrogation - because should require u and another person

Intimidation - because should require u and another person or more

oh and The Reaping - because should require u and another person  burla

But at the sametime I will admit he beleives that he is the Scalpel of the God-Emperor, and is guided by his will and has been protected to kill in his name against heretics.  

 

and well, because Alaric is from Dusk, he never studied Law, which has been noted as he has no clues about the Law of Gravity and how it should work.atontado

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1. A bower sword is a sword, your statement is not backed by the book.

2. What are you talking about? Half of this is just insults or missinterpitetions of what I said, not that it surprises me being the 40k fandom. You "cut" whit a power sword just like any other sword, it just has a field that sets people on fire when you land critts.

3. I know, it is you who has been talking about only using primitiv weapons.

4. Eh, yes you did; "For my opinion an Assassin is an Assassin, for you it is something different, a Brute of some kind…" you made a assumptions that I don´t know what a assassin is, but then again you make quite a lot of assumptions, plus ignoring the actual book.

5. Yes, but it is not that loud nore could many peole smell it, unless it is sufficatingly strong.

6. Again your making assumptions, dude, my gang is using the same stuff that everyone else by there level is, maybe even less, they are steamrolling stuff not couse I let them, couse they are just really good att it, they chooce to take on a situation that I give them however they want, and no I am not letting them win. I infact hate GM´s that do that, what I am is just. I am not forcing them to do anything and this intire part is quite unprovoked, I have meet your kind of people before, they are the kind that can´t win argument and end up with this kind of talk. Hell I have even meet people that don´t think burning books on Emperors Ascension day is a thing even though it is in the Inquisitors Handbook, why? Couse they don´t read what they don´t want to learn.

Bottomline:

Your argument is based on personal perception, nothing of what you say is stated or supported in the books that otherwise do a good job of saying what flys and what dosn´t. Damage type is for the crit table and has litlle inpact to the game other than that. Do you really think that setting a guy on fire or having him explode is less effective then having him bleed out?

What is a assassin? Some one that kills people and often do it for money, it may be stealth, it may be messy, but the end result is that the target dies, just as a bandit is a thief, he steals by robbing you but he ultimetly steals from you. Moritat are killers that use blades and other edged weapons, it can be silently or it could be in the middle of a ballroom, it depends on what they want to achieve by killing the target. Nothing say´s that it has to be quiet and stealth.

Your rude and type to much, cut it down a bit.

Don´t ever make assumptions.

I believe that we have reached the end here and will just have to agree to dissagree.

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ArcCain said:



Your argument is based on personal perception, nothing of what you say is stated or supported in the books that otherwise do a good job of saying what flys and what dosn´t.

My last try here to argue with you, but you are still not reading what I am writing. I already mentioned a novel with a power Sword that had NO physical blade. It was just a hilt, nothing more that emits the power blade that not just works like an ordinary sword. The blade you can see on power weapons is just a conduit, nothing more, it has NO edge.

 

Well, I am out.

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In the interest of peace and harmony (What? Heresy! There is only war!) I will point out that our noble Rules Overlords (FFGs developers) answered this question with a "whatever works for you" style answer.

The Moritat are NOT prohibited from using chain or power swords by the fine Rules As Written, but there is certainly enough text that support a more restricitve interpretation, and as such your group/GM is free to introduce such restrictions.

Thus Spake FFG (I paraphrased, as I couldn't be arsed to find the quote).

So you're free to keep arguing about what's "correct", but keep in mind that you're arguing about what should be orthodox interpretation of religious doctrine in an imagined extremist cult in a fantasy universe that doesn't exist and that changes all the time to such an extent that even "official canon" contradicts itself constantly.

I doub't there is such a thing as "correct" here, so go with the advice from the game creators: "Say Yes!" and follow the "Rule of Cool!"

Will restricting the assassin in your group to ancient weapons make for a cooler game? If so, go for it. Will it make the player sulk, the party lose it's edge (pun intended) in the fight against the Emperors enemies? Then for Him-on-Terras sake drop the issue and let him have his cool toys!

We're playing to have fun, right? Not to "accurately portray and simulate the realism of the 41st millennium".

You're fielding chansaw wielding swordfighters against space-elves with lasers for petes sake, on spaceships that look like cathedrals! And you have wizards and demons that warp space and time and break all known laws of nature. If you've all decided to accept this level of disbelief, and to play this GAME together, then bloody well learn to just Let Go. 

In my not-so-humble opinion :)

Secutor 00K likes this

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I'm suprised nobody has mentioned that the Metallican Gunslinger is also "underpowered."

 

I believe it is most accurate that DH started out as an investigation game that has changed, presumably under market pressure, the popularity of Abnett, and the buying power of teenagers :), into an action game. This occured around Blood of Martyrs and Apostasy Gambit and I think is not coincidentally tied into the general decline of product quality.

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Oh, look, it's the "Moritat are underpowered" thread again, right on schedule!

 

Generally speaking, yes, Moritat characters are in a bit of a bind, as their main advantage is entirely outdone by a mere chainsword, generally available quite early on in the game, and they are still stuck with all the disadvantages.

 

That said, Dark Heresy has quite a lot cool things Moritat can use while maintaining the advantage of the Bloody Edge. And if DH isn't enough, Rogue Trader may also be helpful. Dual-wielding Sanctified Lathe Bolo Knives with Tox Dispensers is a surefire way to deal a ton of damage with insane RF potential even at higher echelons of power, and that's just scratching the surface.

 

Moritat have a harder time getting really good weapons, but they aren't crippled by that. And once they do find the right equipment, the results are pretty good.

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I am in fact amused by the fact that some people say that Moritat cannot use power weapons because they are not primitive, while stating that lathe-blade and mono upgrade is ok. Seriously, re-read the description of both (and tox dispenser, for that matter) and you will be shocked -- both are in no **** way primitive or non-high-tech.

Secondly -- Reaping. It is meant to be used i the thick of melee. So I'm in no way saying that an assaasin shouldn't stalk the shadows and kill enemies while being unseen, but let's face it -- it is a comat-oriented class an is by all means supposed not to suck in melee, an from some fanatics of yours are saying it is either using a sword/knife without mono/lathe/power/tox upgrade or a bow/thrownKnife without upgrades which will suck in a real fight anyway.

Bsides, sir Moep, I hope youndo understand a power sword that "disrupts molecular bonds" and "cautherizes wounds" are diametrically opposed matters and I can hardly imagine that happening at the same time. And I agree that ascension would not give a moritat prefered class a power sword if he could not use it, but oh, wait, you just said the opposite.

I am also surprised by ArcCain's statement that power swords burn through their targets, AFAIK power fields on swords indeed do soften the matter by "disrupting molecular bonds" but everyone with at least a bit of engineering knowledge (which is, of course, not always applicable to WH40K matters but anyways) understands that that means that the physical sword cuts through matter much more easily, and that's it, no burning/cautherizing wounds and stuff.

So from this perspective a power sword cuts throygh matter with power field only helping by softening up targets, so yes, it is a bladed weapon in which the thrust makes most of the work and the field helping a bit (sword in which the blade itself wouldn't matter wouldn't have a SB add to damage like the forementioned sollex blade) and so can be used by moritat, because the only other option would be to restrict moritat to the bladed weapons with primitime quality with almost no upgrades (no power/lathe/mono) which sounds ridiculous to me as even a great weaopn being primtive cna't stand a chance in fight even to a kill-squad-trooper who is a quite low-level adversary.

Lastly as for me personally I would definetly say no to any chain weaopns as they are no blades -- they are bladed chains but that is quite different from a proper blade, and of course no staffs/mauls/hammers/etc of any kind primitive or not

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Power weapons are practically lightsabers, they only use the physical blade as a template to generate the high-energy, extremely destructive power field around.

 

Per the official clarification, they have enough of a blade that the Moritat can use them without rolling WP, but their cuts aren't precise enough for the Moritat to work their special art of bloodletting - meaning, they can use them, but don't gain Tearing on them. This makes sense to me.

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Power weapons are practically lightsabers, they only use the physical blade as a template to generate the high-energy, extremely destructive power field around.

 

Per the official clarification, they have enough of a blade that the Moritat can use them without rolling WP, but their cuts aren't precise enough for the Moritat to work their special art of bloodletting - meaning, they can use them, but don't gain Tearing on them. This makes sense to me.

 

Power Swords are one of the preeminent types of Power Weapons. When its power cell is activated, the blade becomes sheathed in a lethal haze of a disruptive energy field. This field allows the blade to easily rip through armor and flesh alike

-- Copy/Paste from lexicanum. So it's the blade ripping through flesh, field just helping by (ta-da) disrupting molecular bonds

 

Lightsabers are actually Sollex blades

 

I think for fanatics that's the best rule they'll have, but as for more open-minded GMs I'd vote for allowing them power swords/blades

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That doesn't work with power weapons dealing Energy damage, though.

 

I think allowing Moritat to use their special trait on power weapons seriously hampers their style and makes them unambiguously the best choice for a melee combatant in the system, which is never good.

 

There is a ton of great equipment the Moritat can use with their special trait, some of it easily comparable to power weapons. They just have to jump through a few more hoops to get it, which seems to me to be the whole point of the package.

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As a player who is building a Moritat assassin i feel i have to add some of my thoughts on this topic.

1 I am building the charater to be good at mid range combat with a bow been asking question on what talents would be good to use with a bow that under a diffrent thread.

2 for close combat i feel  that a power SWORD would be fine to use, for two reason.

  2A it can be used as a regular weapon when the power cell runs out. I do not see a power sword as being a "light saber" i look at the models for the table top game and the blades are full length and have power leads on them.

  2B the damage done by a power sword is energy and that only applies to crit damage so u could use the tearing rule for normal damage done durning the attack.

3 there are plenty of talents that will let the charater deal massive amouts of damage with all types of weapons ( ecept chain)This is just my oppion plus it is up to the gm rulling on how he INTERPITS the rules and back round of hte charater

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Well, the metal blade on a power sword is just for show, really. It never comes into contact with your target. There are some examples of power swords without the "metal guide", having the field stabilised in some other mysterious way.

 

The power swords are like lightsabers in that it is the energy field that surrounds the blade that comes into contact with, and damages, the target. And the damage type is the same for "normal" and "critical" damage. It doesn't magically change once the target looses his wounds. 

 

So your reasons don't really hold water, I'm afraid. Having said that, I'd allow the power to work with powerswords simply because the Rule of Cool and to avoid Gimping the poor Moritats. I believe this was the official ruling as well, in one of the many threads that have been posted on this subject :D

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Ok i always thought power swords were like Star Wars vibro blades in there use. My charater will not be using power weopens but will use punch daggers and great sword when the time comes.

I did miss under there constrution.

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I think allowing Moritat to use their special trait on power weapons seriously hampers their style and makes them unambiguously the best choice for a melee combatant in the system, which is never good.

 

 

Templar Calix Psyker says hi.

Darth Smeg and Alex Cube like this

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Correct me if i'm wrong, but the errata for IH should answer the questions about Moritats and Power Swords.

As for underpowered ... no. You do loose most ranged weapons, but you are still as hard to hit as the other assassins and your Melee prowess surpasses the others. And there are still several advanced/exotic weapons that can be used like the Widower and such.

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Well, the metal blade on a power sword is just for show, really. It never comes into contact with your target. There are some examples of power swords without the "metal guide", having the field stabilised in some other mysterious way.

 

The power swords are like lightsabers in that it is the energy field that surrounds the blade that comes into contact with, and damages, the target. And the damage type is the same for "normal" and "critical" damage. It doesn't magically change once the target looses his wounds. 

 

So your reasons don't really hold water, I'm afraid. Having said that, I'd allow the power to work with powerswords simply because the Rule of Cool and to avoid Gimping the poor Moritats. I believe this was the official ruling as well, in one of the many threads that have been posted on this subject :D

 

As far as power weapons go. The "standard" style of (Imperial) power weapon can be utilized as a regular weapon of that type with the powerfield turned off. It's just that normally nobody uses them without turning the powerfield on first.

The funky ones without a blade/weapon as the core/base matrix for the powerfield mostly don't allow using the wielder's strength bonus for damage.

 

That's probably where I would draw the line on Moritat using power weapons - if it (a) allows Strength bonus to damage, and (b) utilizes an actual bladed weapon as the base for the powerfield to be wrapped around, then a Moritat can use and treat it as an edged (rending) weapon without penalty, otherwise, nope, find a different weapon.

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