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Baalkaedran

Underpowered Moritat?

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I'm to the opposite side of the spectrum on the Moritat. People read the Bloody Edge (Trait) entry wrong

"The Moritat disdain many modern weapons as crude and spiritually unfulfilling, preferring instead the sacred edge of the blade. As a result, they must pass a Hard (-20) Willpower test to use any weapon lacking an "edge" in combat (Thrown Blades, Knives and arrows are fine) UNLESS they obviously have no chance of harming their enemy otherwise."

Moritats are zealous in nature for there devotion, but they are not insane. My character build had a Stub Revolver with Man Stopper Bullets just incase, but I rarely ever had to use it. Also as Cymbel has posted before

"http://fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=70&efcid=46&efidt=678245"

The ruling is a Moritat can use a powersword/chain sword. The debate is over if they get tearing with a Power Blade (Which is GM discretion).

The Moritat can be a great build due to the background nature and focus. My character was the noble born background, and acted the pompus arrogant type in public. But that was not the real him. That was the Fasade (Oh you taught me well Bruce Wayne). Might I recommend to players to play a character not just on potential damage output, but what excites you. If your worried about just throwing dice, then as mentioned above, you can still be a Minmaxer with a Moritat

Rank:4 Secluse: Melee Weapon Training (Chain)

Rank:5 Assassin: Melee Weapon Training (Power), Thrown Weapon Training (Chain)

Rank:6 Moritat Reaper: Melee Bad***

To have tearing before Rank 4 (2000Xp) Is great to have, cause your not touching the Power or Chain sword for a long while (Unless your GM gives out XP like nothing). This will then give you the ability to do more damage as a melee build with your awesome dodge capabilities. Granted you may not have as many wounds as a Guardsman, your AG makes up for this.

 

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Now I play a ultra-conservative Moritat Reaper born on Dusk, he has not yet used anything outside of a mono blade to kill.  He beleives he is the Emperor's Scalpel, with it being his job grant to his enemies with his Benediction.  He is for lack of a better word a Zealot to the Imperial Creed.  He may not be a social butterfly, honestly the only "Social" skills he has are: Intimidate, Interrogation, and Medicae.  What he is a for lack of a better word, a living weapon against our enemies.  He is not an investigator, kinda useless unless 1 needs Muscle.

On a recent job our cell was sent into the underhive and my PC outfit looked a lot like this

danny-trejo-machete-007.jpg

It was kinda of amusing when he let his coat open to the small group of gangbangers and used it to Intimidate them.

Now for

wielding a sword and is wondering why he cant kill an enemy in terminator-armor after he has openly charged him has clearly failed as an assassin…

Agreed that a failure, and my Moritat would only end up there in 1 of 2 ways:

1: Father Des told me to go Kill the Heretic

2: By engaging it the rest of my team could get away

When the party mentions he should have a firearm he keeps mentioning getting the Kavan Munitions “Deathstalker” Pistol, and my party is sure I will never use the ammo in the gun.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=160&efcid=46&efidt=735454  (reply #2)

 

 

 

 

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high-marshal said:

Where do they say power swords don't count?  I don't think the errata mentions it and as far as I can tell the trait itself makes no mention of power weapons, one way or the other.  As GM of my group any moritat using a power sword (or power axe for that matter) would still get tearing.

We know that Power Weapons do not apply because a Power Weapon with "Tearing" is called an Evicerator.  ^_^  I reccomend using one.

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Eviscerators aren't power weapons, they're chain weapons. And if you're going to use an Eviscerator, there's no point to playing a Moritat. You may as well play a regular Assassin and pack a gun as well.

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Boss Gitsmasha said:

Eviscerators aren't power weapons, they're chain weapons. And if you're going to use an Eviscerator, there's no point to playing a Moritat. You may as well play a regular Assassin and pack a gun as well.

I have to agree with that comment.

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First off, while in some fluff Eviscerators do have a form of powerfield, the main damage truly comes from the tearing blades

Secondly, FFG gave an unofficial ruling that they dont and many GMs say they do

And most importantly, it gets tearing already, it is loud, it doesn't shed blood on a sacred edge, it isn't precise in any way, WHY as a Moritat are you using it? It isn't for religious reason, it isn't for tearing and every assassin can wield one with chain training.

Moritat can turn a cheaper and silent sword into a weapon almost as deadly as a chain sword, that is where they suceed, as a fanatical limited assassin who can kill well, but like all assassins are glass cannons

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Cymbel said:

 

First off, while in some fluff Eviscerators do have a form of powerfield, the main damage truly comes from the tearing blades

Secondly, FFG gave an unofficial ruling that they dont and many GMs say they do

And most importantly, it gets tearing already, it is loud, it doesn't shed blood on a sacred edge, it isn't precise in any way, WHY as a Moritat are you using it? It isn't for religious reason, it isn't for tearing and every assassin can wield one with chain training.

Moritat can turn a cheaper and silent sword into a weapon almost as deadly as a chain sword, that is where they suceed, as a fanatical limited assassin who can kill well, but like all assassins are glass cannons

 

 

 

Just like to point out:

Eviscerator; Blood of Martyrs p116
Descriptive text: "Favoured by Ecclesiarchy zealots and witch-hunters, the eviscerator is an obscenely large double-handed chain weapon fitted with a crude version of the disruption field generator more commonly found on power-blades."

Eviscerator; Only War p185
Descriptive text: "Often carried into battle by Priests of the Adeptus Ministorum, the eviscerator is an obscenely large double-handed chain weapon fitted with a crude version of the disruption field generator commonly found on power weapons."

Emphasis is mine.

Neither source gives the Eviscerator the Power Field quality, but they both have massive armor penetration capabilities, more so in Only War since the thing has the Razor Sharp quality.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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vogue69 said:

how do you roll the tearing dice for a 2d5 bolo knife? 1D10? 2d5? seperate coloured dice?

The easiest way would be 3d10 (round down for d5). One of the 3 dices is of another color and can be used for one of the two regular dices if higher.

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Darth Smeg said:

Roll 3, discard the lowest?

that's what i thought. But let's say you have a normal one handed weapon. 1D10 dmg. you roll a 1. and the tearing dice comes up a 10. you turned a measily 1 dmg into 10 dmg.the bolo knife is a better weapon. 2d5 are better then 1d10. so you roll the worst dmg roll and come up with 2 dmg. then you roll the best tearing result which in this case would be 5 (1D10 /2) and end up with 6 dmg. that doesn't seem right to me. it makes tearing worse with a better weapon. it works with a single d5 weapon though.

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True, but a 1 on a d10 happens 1 of every 10 situations, but a 2 on d25 happens only in 1 of every 25.

You get more "average" results, and not so many highs or lows. 2d5 is not necessarily "better" than 1d10, as it will tend to consistantly score "mediochre" results, whilst the d10 will be "all over the place".

 

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2d5 are far superior to a 1d10, even with tearing.

 

1d10 / 2d10d1

Min: 1 / 1

Max: 10 / 10

Average: 5.5 / 7.15

Std. deviation: 2.872 / 2.351

Chance to get RF: 10% / 20 %

 

2d5 / 3d5d1

Min: 2 / 2

Max: 10 / 10

Average: 6.0 / 7.20

Std. deviation: 2.000 / 1.842

Chance to get RF: 20% / 30%

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FieserMoep said:

2d5 are far superior to a 1d10, even with tearing.

 

1d10 / 2d10d1

Min: 1 / 1

Max: 10 / 10

Average: 5.5 / 7.15

Std. deviation: 2.872 / 2.351

Chance to get RF: 10% / 20 %

 

2d5 / 3d5d1

Min: 2 / 2

Max: 10 / 10

Average: 6.0 / 7.20

Std. deviation: 2.000 / 1.842

Chance to get RF: 20% / 30%

I'm impressed. Of course, they both pale to a Great Weapon, which is 2d10/3d10d1.

Then there was that Khorne Renegade I had in Black Crusade who had the Flesh Render talent, which made her roll TWO extra dice on Tearing weapons, discarding the two lowest. Combined with her Best-craftsmanship Chain Greatsword, which was 2d10+3R Pen 3, I'd roll 4 damage dice and discard the lowest two. Blood for the Blood God.

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Boss Gitsmasha said:

 

FieserMoep said:

 

2d5 are far superior to a 1d10, even with tearing.

 

1d10 / 2d10d1

Min: 1 / 1

Max: 10 / 10

Average: 5.5 / 7.15

Std. deviation: 2.872 / 2.351

Chance to get RF: 10% / 20 %

 

2d5 / 3d5d1

Min: 2 / 2

Max: 10 / 10

Average: 6.0 / 7.20

Std. deviation: 2.000 / 1.842

Chance to get RF: 20% / 30%

 

 

I'm impressed. Of course, they both pale to a Great Weapon, which is 2d10/3d10d1.

Then there was that Khorne Renegade I had in Black Crusade who had the Flesh Render talent, which made her roll TWO extra dice on Tearing weapons, discarding the two lowest. Combined with her Best-craftsmanship Chain Greatsword, which was 2d10+3R Pen 3, I'd roll 4 damage dice and discard the lowest two. Blood for the Blood God.

 

that's what I have for my Rank7 Moritat Reaper right now. Flesh Render, Crushing Blow, Blade Dancer. It's like a latex whirlwind of blades.

 

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Boss Gitsmasha said:

How the hell did you get Flesh Render in Dark Heresy? That Talent didn't even exist when it came out.

we inluded Flesh Render, Preternatural Speed, Crushing Blow and Blade Dancer in the Moritat Reaper tree.

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Those really are sensible choices and give them the buff when they are winding down (Tearing is a HUGE boost initially, competes well with CQ chainswords because a BQ mono sword is 190 VS the higher price of a chainsword as well as the quiet feature, and the XP bonus of saving it to focus on melee with light ranged, but not needing weapon training talents).

Crushing Blow gives the boost to stack up better against power and with the tearing makes them even better on a raw damage scale VS light armor

Flesh Render makes their special EVEN better, especially when they go to a lathe sword with the 1d10+2+MB+SB Pen3 +10 hit SUPER TEARING VS a CQ power sword

The speed boost is nice and helps them close the distance

Blade Dancer combined with 2 BQ blades and lightning attack makes 4 +10 to hit attacks, right?

And you also replaced the Reaping with the OW whirlwind talent, right?

Btw, what is the XP cost on all of these?

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Cymbel said:

 

Those really are sensible choices and give them the buff when they are winding down (Tearing is a HUGE boost initially, competes well with CQ chainswords because a BQ mono sword is 190 VS the higher price of a chainsword as well as the quiet feature, and the XP bonus of saving it to focus on melee with light ranged, but not needing weapon training talents).

Crushing Blow gives the boost to stack up better against power and with the tearing makes them even better on a raw damage scale VS light armor

Flesh Render makes their special EVEN better, especially when they go to a lathe sword with the 1d10+2+MB+SB Pen3 +10 hit SUPER TEARING VS a CQ power sword

The speed boost is nice and helps them close the distance

Blade Dancer combined with 2 BQ blades and lightning attack makes 4 +10 to hit attacks, right?

And you also replaced the Reaping with the OW whirlwind talent, right?

Btw, what is the XP cost on all of these?

 

 

 

Moritat Reaper (Rank6+) gets the following talents Talents: Crushing Blow (100exp), Flesh Render (200exp) (Black Crusade), Preternatural Speed (200exp) und Blade Dancer (300exp) (Only War/Black Crusade).

The Reaping follows the rules of Whirlwind of Death from Only War. We play with OW Combat Rules though.

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What Rankes/Levels are we talking about here?

I have a assassin in my game and he is a buzz saw, he dose not even have the Moritat expansion and still killes pritty much everything he gose up against, and he is melee focused.

The Moritat only say´s that you need to use bladed weapons, as long as your weapon has a edge your fine so power weapons are fair game, don´t forget that there are some cool crossbows in Inquisitors Handbook and Ascension that you can still use and you still get Tearing against living targets with them.

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If you would have watched the discussion you would now that there is a very strong and valid argument against power weapons for the moritat. Fluffwise these weapons are shaped like bladed weapons but in fact it is the powerfield, not the edge, that inclicts the damage. (This the for example the reason why an Omnissian Axe looks like a blunt cog but still works finde as a power weapon - thanks to the field)

Someone that is against advanced weapons and is trained in cutting weapons would by no means apply all his talent to these advanced weapons. He might know how to hold a sword but this does not qualify him to fight with this weapon and even more all the eviscerating skills a moriatat has achieved with a blade cant apply to a power weapon because it is not "physical" like a blade is and therefore you cant pull the guts out and increase the damage even more (hence the tearing). A power field simply burns the flesh away.

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1: Yes, you can put a power field on most weapons in the game but how the field works i based on the weapon, (+installation), and how advansed it is. Power Fists/hammers trigger on hit delivering a powerfull blow but is otherwise most of the time "of", Power swords and axes dose not have the advanced trigger system and needs to stay on, the field allows the weapon to "cut" through armour and fleash better but burns up it´s battery faster.

2: The Omnisian Axe is not something every Tech-Priest has, it is only for the "elite" that has proven them selfs, and in Inquisitors Handbook it look quite sharp.

3: In Ascension the Death Cult Assassins start with two power swords, if you are a Moritat you will most likly grab that path. The power sword is very much a physical weapon the field just makes it more deadly, as a Player/Moritat you have sacrificed most ranged weapon, (and indeed melee weapons), to be the best you can in melee, why would you as a GM screw the character in the late game over a power field? The sword is a sword it is just enhanced, the Tearing rule is based on the fact that the Moritat is just that good with bladed weapons and nothing more, a weapon dose not need to have teeth or other additions to have Tearing, it can some times be added to a weapon just to demostrate it´s killing power. Also, there code allows them to use other or "cheating" weapons if they can´t harm the enemy any other way. As someone said earlier, Assassins Strength is expensive so give them some leeway.

If you as a GM is going to deny the Moritat his or hers tearing do to a power field you should supply him with a good Lathes blade or something similar with good damage and pen. The cell will eventually face carapace and power armour and then the Assassin is mostly useless unless he uses weapons that he can´t even use his tearing, (one of the reasons you pick a Moritat), with. If we are to deny him power weapons.

"A blade is and therefore you cant pull the guts out and increase the damage even more (hence the tearing)." So what if he turns the power field of and twists the sword around before pulling it out?

 

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1. The battery thing depends on fluff, actually there are models with unlimited energy supply. But everything else you say here does not add to the discussion of a moritat can use it. I was talking about the least "bladed" power weapons, most of us know that hammers/fists work different but they are nothing to discuss if we are talking about the moritat.

2. My argument was not about how wide-spread it is, my argument was about how force fields work and this weapon is a quite good example for this, no matter how often you will encounter it. And if we go in deep here, every power weapon is only asignet to elite fighters, even a "common craftmanship" version is something special and valuable.

3. The Ascention Career is not made for moritat alone, it is made for death cultists and just offers these weapons, it does not force you to use it. A death cult that has sworn to use primitive, edged weapons has no use for this kind of armament, simple as that. A power weapon is a physical weapon, indeed, but its primary damage does not come from pure force, but from advanced technology. Where a moritat uses a bladed weapon to inflict harm he uses cuting methods that leave big and bloody wounds, that is what makes him so special. A power blade on the other hand simpley burnd everything of. No matter of a moritat uses his special skills or another experienced fighter uses it. Just look at the damage code, a power weapon inflicts energy damage while a regular blade uses rending damage. This is the damage that fluffwise cautarizes wounds, just like Lasguns or for example gaunt when he cut of Larks leg with his sword and imideatly cautarized the wound with it. Does that sound like the bloody buisness a moritat is for? Well at least it does not for me. Every wound a moritat inflicts is made by a surgeon that knows how to devastate a living body. When he cuts your stomage he does it that way that your organs will fall out, he is an artist and just like you cant replace the brush of a dedicated painter with a spray can you cant replace an edged weapon with a power blade. In the end they do roughly the same but the dedicated painter can only use his skills with a brush though he might have learned to use a spray can, it is still something different.

And no, a power sword is nost just a sword with an enhancement. It is something complelty different. This weapon has been build from scrap to be a power weapon, you cant just attach something and say."yea, power field!". But more important in this discussion it is also used differently. If you just look at it with the definition weapon, it might be comparable, but if we go more into detail, as we have to, and talk about an actual blade and the physic mechanics of cuting, then the power weapon works complelty different. The actual blade you see is just traditional and cosmetic, in some models it only adds some weight for slashing power or to cunduit the actual power field. For example Gregor Eisenhorn used a power sword that had no blade at all and was just a hilt (Do not confuse this with the sollex blade).

Also it is true that a moritat sacrifices some tools and weapons and might be even weak in comparision. But this is no ****** MMO where every class has to be balanced, this is a PnP. And if a zealot takes a decision out of fath then it is that way, even if it might cripple him, this is the very essence of faith. It adds to the charakter of a PC and you have to forget about DMG comperability etc. He is an assassin and not made to fight toe to toe with enemys in power armor. As an assassin he sneaks in and kills those guys when their helemts or even complet armors are off. Yes, it might not be that easy but then you should not have rolled a moritat assassin. Everyone can read about them, it is no wall you hit unprepared. It is a choice you take and if your charakter notices INPLAY that his believes are wrong for he cannot slay the emperors enemies he might reconsider his believes. But this is an active choice. To make it more convinient by allowing power weapons is just weak cheating that has no place in charakter play, at least for my group an me. If all breaks loose, he has to b reak with his death cult, the moriat if he thinks they are wrong when they only use "primitve" weapons. That is his freedom but he has to deal with the consequences. He took a moritat, he play a moritat. To cry in the lategame for better weapons only shows that he onyl took it becauce of min-maxing, not because of the thrill of playing such a dedicated silet killer with its own code of honor.

And you said it already, there are choices like Lathe Blades he can try to acquire, also he can use called attack to unprotected areas like the face etc. Not every armour covers the whole body and is a sealed power armor. And if you are constantly fighting CSM then DH is propably not the right setting. Carapce is even managble with a Mono-Great-Weapon.

And to your last paragraph, the area where he turns the blade has already been burned out by the powerfield before. If you know ask why he stabs even futher after takin it of and then twisting it you might address FFG directly. In the end this is a PnP system that has to focus and drop rules that might never apply.

Also mostly the argument that a moritat is underpowered includes armors like carapace and even power. I just wonder where your assassins are fighting? If the campaing includes gun-ho random encounters on the street with full equiped kill teams I agree that an assassin might be in trouble here, a guardsman would be the more fitting melee fighter here. But if we realy break down what it means to be a melee assassin we come to talk about stealth and infiltration where the assassin actualy is good at. The moritat is the best silent killer in the setting for he can use silent weapons (no chain or power, just primitive) with the strongest effect. Actualy he is the only assassin career that can more or less guarantee a silent kill in one ambush. This is where his strengh lies, but most people dont get it when they compare him to auto-cannons and what not.

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1: Battery is quite relevant as the book´s often sayt that the weapons can only be used so and so long, often around 20-30 minutes, and yes there are some weapons that have unlimited power.

2: A Powersword/blade/knife dose not make a huge burning hole it is a focused edge that deals E typ damage, unless you score a crit.

3: "Every wound a moritat inflicts is made by a surgeon that knows how to devastate a living body. When he cuts your stomage he does it that way that your organs will fall out, he is an artist and just like you cant replace the brush of a dedicated painter with a spray can you cant replace an edged weapon with a power blade." Yes you can, a power weapon will do the same job and faster + there is the burn trauma, (that you keep comming back to), being inflicted. And if Death Cult Assassins don´t use advanced weapons why do they start with them? The Moritat said nothing about only using primitive weapons, only that they use blades and bladed weapons, a power sword is still a sword. Some would see it as a blessing to be giftet such a grand weapon to slay the enemy´s of the Emperor.

Funny that you mention Eisenhorn, I remember him, and I am quoting the book, cutting a Dreadnought in half with his powersword. Just as long as we are draging the books into it. And I am not messing with you when I say that I don´t understand what your talking about here.

Again it say´s nothing about only using primitive weapons. So your saying that by taking a starter pack by what it offers and not just based on the fluff is mid maxing? Then how are you ever going to get started? If you want to build melee you will grab what is best for melee and that´s that, tactical and clever building. First you say it´s not about choic but then you say that it is not about making a choic, it´s about playing a underpowered character based a choic given to you by the book to make you better att killing with blades but none of your argument are backed in the Moritats restrictions. And the Reaping dose not sound like something that a stealt based Assassin will want anyway, if you roll a Moritat you will be in the thick of melee. And yes the Reaping is from a later add on but there is no reason to not grab it if you are a Moritat.

There are power armours and fare worse stuff that normal humans can have, not everyone will but some time you will run into it and then there is the stuff xenos may have. We should not even start on Daemons.

Eh? What?

Acually, if you balanc the campaing propperly the enemy´s the Cell will face will not be push overs like the one the book´s, pare from a few, gives you. The Assassin in my group is not even a Moritat and he is till murdering almost everything he runs into in combat thanks to his power sword so I don´t think he or Moritat´s are underpowered, people just knowingly miss inturpit the rules just as in the original table top game, why a party would want to cripple them self that way is beond me. + DH is an ARPG, there is not that much stealth in it and you can´t really play a stealth Assassin with out something that deals a lot damage and can oneshot or knock some one out, Moritat or not.

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