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Baalkaedran

Underpowered Moritat?

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Hi!
As we were playing ,I as a Moritat Assassin , I found myself wondering : is the Moritat background/Reaper class underpowered or is it just the way I play?
My character will only use primitive (obviously mono'd) swords and doesn't use a Great Sword. But still ,even though I do not use the "best" weapons available because they wouldn't fit the character ,it still feels like Moritats are missing something: they have little abilities that make them better in combat ,the Bloody Edge and The Reaping are nice ,but that's about it .Compared to other classes with ,for example ,Crusing Blow or Deadeye Shot ,it's not much. Also ,the Assassins Career allows players to upgrade their Strenght only at very high XP costs. Actually ,most classes have a badly done characteristic advances table : Arbitrators ,Assassins ,Tech-Priests require 500 to raise their Strenght ,Psykers need 250…
Anyway ,these are but some of the problems I have encountered. AM I missing something or is this class really underpowered? And in that case ,what could be done to rebalance it?

Thanks,
B.Kaedran

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I'd say you're trading in long-term potential for a short-term boost to melee capability.

Gaining tearing on all blades is very sweet, but as you say, when other gain powerweapons you'll be falling behind.

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As a Moritat player, I can indeed confirm that Moritat are underpowered. The Bloody Edge gives you a truly crippling disadvantage by making the vast majority of available weapons (including some very useful ones) unavailable to you, to allow you to have Tearing on bladed weapons. And if the FFG devs are to be believed, you do not gain Tearing on many high-end weapons, such as power swords, despite their ostensibly having an "edge". The Reaping is situational at best, and one successful Parry will ruin it for you; it's not really worth it. If you're playing another class or a non-Moritat assassin, the lack of Tearing on your melee weapons can be compensated for by buying a chainsword (and even then, you can probably survive without it anyway). If you ask me, Assassins should be snipers; if you want to go melee, don't be an Assassin, play a Guardsman instead. At least the Guardsman will also be able to pack a grenade launcher.

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Where do they say power swords don't count?  I don't think the errata mentions it and as far as I can tell the trait itself makes no mention of power weapons, one way or the other.  As GM of my group any moritat using a power sword (or power axe for that matter) would still get tearing.

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I can't recall an offical ruling, but it is well established that with power weapons it is not the actual blade (or hammer or whatever) that hits the target and does damage, but the surrounding power field.

You're not really cutting with a blade as much as delivering disruptive force through some sort of conductor/delivery mechanism. 

Which is why many people feel that the moritat wouldn't use them.

Personally I like the moritat, and would allow their players to use power swords for mechanical balance reasons alone.

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to counteract that a bit we included the following: 

Moritat Reaper (Rank6+) gets the following talents Talents einfügen: Crushing Blow (100exp), Flesh Render (200exp) (Black Crusade), Preternatural Speed (200exp) und Blade Dancer (300exp) (Only War/Black Crusade).

The Reaping follows the rules of Whirlwind of Death from Only War.
 

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Darth Smeg said:

Personally I like the moritat, and would allow their players to use power swords for mechanical balance reasons alone.

This is a query, not a recrimination:

Aren't the Moritat essentially Luddites when it comes to combat?  It doesn't seem as if they disdain the impersonal nature of ranged assassination, but it seems their real beef is over the influence of technology.  Skill over technological advantage, yes?  I suppose it's for every player to determine if a Moritat would find it acceptable to combine skill and technological advantage.  Purists versus Practicalists, as it were?

Also:  I am shocked, shocked I say, that you like luddites.  Infathomable.

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As I've interpreted them they don't have a problem with technology. Rather it's their worship of bloodletting and thus edged weapons that is reprsented by The Bloody Edge.

IH p. 31: The Moritat disdain many modern weapons as crude and spiritually unfullfilling, prefering instead the sacred edge of the blade.

(Emphasis mine)

It's a religious thing, as they are a Death Cult.

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Which is why they can use bows and crossbows, their weapons need to have some kind of edge and draw blood. But they also are allowed to use nonlethal weapons for missions, which adds to their versatility. And if you take Vogue's excellent suggestions, it gives Moritat a sizable power boost when they need it the most.

Don't forget some of the advantages of Moritat, blades are perfectly silent compared to a chainsword or even a supressed autogun.

They are a challenge to play and you have to know what you are getting into, but they can be amazing, just know your limitations and talk to your GM first to see what he will and won't allow

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one advantage is that you can get the best quality weapons for way cheaper (there's a weapon that you can get as best for 40 thrones, and is really easy to find), and also becouse of this, you will always have +10 more hit chance than the others. Also Lathe upgrade later on might balance the thing a bit.

also, you could concentrate on ranged moritat instead. using the composite bow can get really deadly as it is an accurate weapon, being naturally silent too.

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The fact that any poor blade becomes tearing in their hands makes them very deadly in many missions where a swordsman whose sword has been taken away would be disadvantaged.

We must remember that dark heresy is not about waging war but mainly about uncovering conspirations, which is hard to do with a humming power sword creating a blue/red/whatever halo of light around it during the night; or a screaming chainsword in a library.

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vogue69 said:

to counteract that a bit we included the following: 

Moritat Reaper (Rank6+) gets the following talents Talents einfügen: Crushing Blow (100exp), Flesh Render (200exp) (Black Crusade), Preternatural Speed (200exp) und Blade Dancer (300exp) (Only War/Black Crusade).

The Reaping follows the rules of Whirlwind of Death from Only War.
 

?? on the Flesh Render, does the Reaper have to training with Chain Weapons?

 

 

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Only to edged weapons I would assume, so blades, axes, etc.

About Moritat and Chainswords, I have no clue, on one hand it gets tearing, but weighs more and is louder, so it is a bit moot to start with and then on top of that, well, it doesnt fit with the sacred "edge" of the blade and doing a perfect cut, but it does let out blood, it just is modern and makes a mess of it and doesnt benefit from their junk

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Give the Moritat a Great Weapon and some special Knifes form the Handbook for assassination duty.

Great Weapon:

Damage: 2D10+2

Penetration: 5

Special: Unwieldy, Tearing, +10 WS, Sanctified, Toxic (Let the Assassin apply self crafted Poison on the blade)

To me such a weapon is pretty much viable for any "primitive" Combatant. He can not parry but he he is still able to dodge. Roleplay this as if he would save the sharpness of the blade because it could become dull if he parrys to much. Also a moritat is no Stormtrooper, he is an ASSASSIN and thanks to tearing he is pretty much the only assassin that can hope to deal enough damage in melee with a silent blade weapons to kill an enemy instantly (especialy with swift and lightning attack later on).

The moritat is an early power boost and his restrictions were pretty obvious, nobody that has atleast some decent experience in DH should be shocked by the fact that a moritat is limited. But hello, this is ROLEPLAY. And Roleplay even means that you have to take some disadvantages. If the benefits become later on neglectable and you are unhappy with that it is not the fault of the system but of you. And what does prevent you from breaking from the moritat or their oath? If this assassin can see that his teammates are more efficient in any matter and even are better assassins than him why does this guy not wonder about his believes? Or did you create a wannabe combat monster with an intelligence of 21…

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maybe the two most powerful versions of moritat are great weapon user, or composite bow user. I've tried the dual wielder and It didn't have the EDGE I expected. *BADUM TSSH*

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The Dark Heresy Rules of Armor and TB are in favor of less but more powerfull attacks.

Two primitive one handed weapons with 4 attacks can not compare to a great weapon with 3 attacks, even more for the -10 penalty in melee on your rolls.

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FieserMoep said:

 

Give the Moritat a Great Weapon and some special Knifes form the Handbook for assassination duty.

Great Weapon:

Damage: 2D10+2

Penetration: 5

Special: Unwieldy, Tearing, +10 WS, Sanctified, Toxic (Let the Assassin apply self crafted Poison on the blade)

To me such a weapon is pretty much viable for any "primitive" Combatant. He can not parry but he he is still able to dodge. Roleplay this as if he would save the sharpness of the blade because it could become dull if he parrys to much. Also a moritat is no Stormtrooper, he is an ASSASSIN and thanks to tearing he is pretty much the only assassin that can hope to deal enough damage in melee with a silent blade weapons to kill an enemy instantly (especialy with swift and lightning attack later on).

The moritat is an early power boost and his restrictions were pretty obvious, nobody that has atleast some decent experience in DH should be shocked by the fact that a moritat is limited. But hello, this is ROLEPLAY. And Roleplay even means that you have to take some disadvantages. If the benefits become later on neglectable and you are unhappy with that it is not the fault of the system but of you. And what does prevent you from breaking from the moritat or their oath? If this assassin can see that his teammates are more efficient in any matter and even are better assassins than him why does this guy not wonder about his believes? Or did you create a wannabe combat monster with an intelligence of 21…

 

 

FieserMoep said:

 

It's not the dev's fault the Moritat sucks, it's your fault! Yes, you, the player!

 

 

Maybe some people just wanted to make an assassin other than a sniper, saw this, and thought it would be neat, only to be rendered irrelevant as soon as the party can afford a chainsword. Even at low levels, my Moritat struggled to keep up with the Handcannon-using Arbitrator and the Psyker, who could kill three enemies in one turn. On top of that, against mechanical enemies (such as Servitors) and if they're using a power sword (which death cult assassins on the tabletop are given as standard equipment) they get no advantages over a non-Moritat.

Also, what prevents me from breaking from the Moritat and their oath? You said it yourself: "Hello, this is ROLEPLAY." Perhaps they adhere closely to the creed they were indoctrinated in because they believe to do otherwise is blasphemy of the highest order. Perhaps it's because if they turn traitor, they know for a fact that the Moritat will send agents to take them down. Or perhaps it's because if they can reject the Moritat as a lie, who's to say they can't reject the Imperium itself as well?

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Well, if you wanted to make an Assassin that is Melee focused just take the standard Assassin career. If you take the Moritat Career this gives you pros and cons you have to deal with but it is not the standard and therefore must not be sufficent in any situation. And there is a reason why many other Death-Cults rely on advanced weaponry and technology simply because this is the most efficent tool.

The moritat on the other hand have never accepted such weaponry becaus it is, as you said, their creed and believe. They have become masters with blades but have forsaken power or chain weapons. They have accepted this weakness in favour of their believes though their creed has granted them strength but this strentgh does not automaticly even out their weakness. It makes them different but no equal anymore. In some situations they are strong, in some they are weaker. But they still believe they are right, thats what believing something is about.

Take a look at the medieval knights they are the "standard" class. In the late middleage there were some knights that did not accept another weapon than the sword for it was the true weapon of a knight though it was much harder to cause damage to a full plated knight in this era and this is why others relyed on heavy weapons like warhammers.

And if an Assassin adheres closely to the creed then this is his character choice and you have to seperate that from you as a player that is not happy with his damage output. The Assassin is doin as best as he can, if this is not enough he can either accept that or change something. In both cases he has to deal with the consequences, that either way he is not able to kill tough enemys in carpace or power armor or has to break his believe that all it takes to kill an enemy of the imperium is a zealot with a blade.

And yes, everyone can reject the Imperium as a Lie, thats heretical indeed. But heresy never starts with someone spontaniously saying "My believes are wrong." It starts with doubt, this is the seed of heresy, this is the grey zone. Maybe the Moritat realises that heavy armoured targets require another weapon, actualy he is allowed to use other weapons in this case. So maybe he is wielding a power sword but only activates his field when he cant harm his enemy otherwise. Now this will take a while and maybe after some hard encounters he is more likey to use the power field more often, maybe he slowly realises the benefits of this technology and makes up some excuses and explanations to himself why he may be allowed to use such a tool. In the long term this could make him break with the moritat. I am not talking about him standing in close combat and just because there is somone in power armor in front of him he crys out "Your kiddin me, screw this! I become a Mech-Assassin!"

On the other hand he can stay true to his believes, stick with his weapons but has to accept that they may be inferior in a galaxy like this. Though he is still an assassin… in my opinion they are only usefull as an assassin… why dont they sneak up their target and kill it while it is sleeping with no armor and so on… they are no Stormtroopers. Why cause a final battle with the cult leader or gang boss if a skilled assassin can sneak into his stronghold and cut is throat? This is where I see the place of a melee focused assassin. If you want just another brute to stand in melee take a guardsman.

And yes, I know the power weapon wielding death-cultists of the wargame, they fall like flies if not proper protected by supporting characters/troops and I think there is a reason why they only seem to use power blade using cultists.^^ The moritat is a low-power character build or an absolute specialist. I can imagine them in two ways: a low cost murder assassin you can assign some targets to, easy to get and zealos enough to do the dirty work(later on he might become a master at assassination and infiltration but is still no field soldier) or a somewhat daemon killer with a sanctified great sword that might even be a guard of a puritan maleus inquisitor.

The only advice I can give is: Play the Assassin as an Assassin, this is where the moritat shines: Stealth. The only real stealth weapons are the primitive ones (and few exotics), Power and Chain wepaons are to loud unless you grant acess to stummers but even then a power weapon might enlight a dark corridor. Also you can apply toxins, they are awsome if strong enough. If you take it this way moritats make the best silent assassins.

What about a Toxic Lathe Bolo Knife for example:

Damage: 2d5+2+SB

Specailty: Pen 3/5, Toxic, Tearing, Best Craftmanship

This with lightning attack+dual wielding attack and Unaware/Helpless Target bonuses makes a great assassin and a big mess.

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Thats why I have written the Pen 3/5 thing, in our round we rule that they do not stack but a weapon with mono can be turned into a weapon with Lathe (Hence the 3 though I know another rule that allows Lathe on Weapons that only have mono in their description). Though if you strictly forbid the Bolo from beeing a Lathe Blade just take the combat knife, it rolls a dice less and hence has a worse chance to get Rightous Fury or deal more maximum damage thought the combat knife benefits from a great raw damage and therefore is more relialbe in its damage.

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I would let a monoed blade be reforged as a lathe blade, essentially destroying the mono part and forming it into something new while still having the player investment into the weapon. Stacking is just broken as it brings you close to Pen 6, which is a power sword. Whether or not it stays sanctified is up to the GM. Also, by the rules, a d5 still only had a 10% chance, because by RaW you have to roll a 10 on the d10 to get it. So 1 = 1, 6 = 1, 2 = 2, 7 =2 all the way up to 5  = 5, 10 = 5 + RF

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FieserMoep said:

[…]in our round we rule that they do not stack but a weapon with mono can be turned into a weapon with Lathe (Hence the 3[…]

Cymbel said:

I would let a monoed blade be reforged as a lathe blade, essentially destroying the mono part and forming it into something new while still having the player investment into the weapon

Its pretty much the same.^^ This actualy was the reason why I wrote Pen 3/5 in the weapon profile, 3 for not stacking, 5 for stacking. I know groups that use different rules. How a weapon is turned or purchased as a custom job, a reforge or some other augmentation totally depends on the situation, the circumstances and the GM. You can also handle the lathe upgrade as a hardening process for monoed weapons or what ever. There are enough reasons to find a solution to keep a heirloom weapon and "upgrade" it as long as it benefits the RP and keeps the rules.

And when I was refering to the Bolo Knife RF Bonus I was talking about the 2d5. I know that a d5 is rolled as a d10, halved and rounded.^^ The reason why I said a Bolo Knife still has the advantage here is because it rolls two dices and hence has two dices with a 10% chance to deal RF and with tearing there are up to three dices. With lighning attack/dual wield you roll 9/12 dices, with a combat knife or any other 1d weapon you roll only 6/8 dices. Chances for RF are very high here (another reason why the great weapon is an awsome weapon in the hands of a moritat).

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Until I read this thread, It had never even occured to me that Moritat couldn't use chain or power weapons. Even after reading,  I still don't buy it. Perhaps there are ultra-conservative factions that believe the purest kill can only be done with a primitive weapon and that anything else borders on heresy, but the dogma of religions changes based on what becomes practical.

As a gm, have silent Moritat NPC's kill or attempt to kill with primitive weapons only, if you want. Enforcing this restriction on PC's, however, seems unneccessarily punitive and not strictly within the rules. Chainswords obviously have an edge; they have dozens of small ones. Powerswords have an edge wreathed in a power field. A PC could decide that they want their character to abide by the more conservative restrictions, but that is a role-playing decision I would leave up to them.

It could lead to interesting plot and role-play developments as the more progressive elements of the Moritat may find themselves in a spiritual and political dispute with their traditional brethren. The successes and failures of the PC could be used by either element for political gain.

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I think the official answer was along the lines that they can use chain and power, but they don't get anything special out of them. or something like that. There have also been multiple instances of noting where a moritat using a chain weapon is not the most silent one.

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bloody malth said:

Until I read this thread, It had never even occured to me that Moritat couldn't use chain or power weapons.

He can, but his Dogma states that he is only allowed to do so if he could not otherwise defeat his foe in the name of the Emperor.

bloody malth said:

Perhaps there are ultra-conservative factions…

Perhaps there are? This is pretty much the definition of any death-Cult worth its salts. They are ultra-conservative to their believes. And never go to a Konfessor or Tech-Priest and tell him that religious dogmas have to change based on what becomes practical… in the most dire situation they might break their dogmas but they would very much know that this was horrible wrong.

bloody malth said:

As a gm, have silent Moritat NPC's kill or attempt to kill with primitive weapons only, if you want. Enforcing this restriction on PC's, however, seems unneccessarily punitive and not strictly within the rules.

it is no punishment for the Player has choosen this career. Now he has to deal with its benefits and drawbacks. They are able to use this kind of weapon but they have spent their live to master the pure form of the blade. And a Chainsword has little blades but theiy are far from beeing an edge and saying that they can be used with the same surgical accuracy than a pure blade is redicioulus. And power fields are also not a "blade". They might look like one but the energy litteraly burns through the target, vapourizing it. You can not tear flesh that has disappeared. These are the reason why the mechanics of the moritats tearing is not workinga and also this is the reason for the willpower check. They do not like this weapons for they act against their believes. For a moritats there is only one thing he needs to kill his enemy, a blade, a real edge.

And a moritat that is wielding a sword and is wondering why he cant kill an enemy in terminator-armor after he has openly charged him has clearly failed as an assassin…

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