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heychadwick

Wedge, Deadeye, and Proton Torpedoes?

26 posts in this topic

I was looking at Deadeye and thought how cool that could be.  You get to save your Target Lock to ues a Focus instead.  If you need to really hit someone with a missile or torpedo, you can use the re-roll from this card.  I was looking can use it, though.  Not many people.  Hmmm….how to maximize it's effects?  Darth Vader could use it, but he would only get one use out of it.  There are better ones he could use.  

What about Wedge?  All targets get -1 Dodge.  Deadeye costs 1 pt and the Proton Torpedo is 4.  It is only 1 extra point for Deadeye and Wedge is till great without any other upgrades.  I think Torpedoes might be more useful in Wave 2 vs. the big ships.  Also, it's a great way to take out that one, specific ship that is in the Tie Swarm.  Need to take out Darth Vader or Howlrunner?  Use the torpedo.  

Proton Torpedoes get 4 attack die and can turn a focus into a critical.  OK….roll your attacks.  Hopefully turn a focus into a critical.  Re-roll the rest that aren't hits.  Good chance of doing a lot of damage and criticals.  Want to take out that big ship?  Wait till their shields are down (or almost down) and hit them with this.  Do the same vs. that special Tie Fighter pilot.  You have a good chance of criticaling whatever  your target is.  

 

Thoughts?

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waste of 1 point and an upgrade slot for a minor boost for something that is single use. I'd much rather Determination or Veteran Instincts than deadeye.

 

deadeye is good if you have multiple missiles/torps though, but since Ywings do not have the upgrade slot and the Firespray is too expensive in terms of cost alone, let alone the extra torps and missiles you will be fitting onto it, I'd say nah, it's not that good of an upgrade. stick with determination.

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I wonder, though, how much it might be needed against the big ships in Wave 2.  It could be a good way to put a hurting on them.  I know it's a bit of a one shot for 5 pts, but it is good to think about when you have a lot of enemy points in one ship.

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I've used Deadeye to some success on the Green Squadron A-Wings. 

Their PR is low enough it isn't much of a boon to give them Swarm Tactics (my main go to Elite Pilot Talent), they're already pretty manueverable, but giving them some missiles and Deadeye makes them pretty good at putting out fires wherever they may be. 

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As others have said Deadeye on Wedge is a huge waste.  It is an upgrade for low pilot skill pilots that can't get a lock on their targets because they move before them.  Veteran Instincts for the same cost would be of much better use and ensure that you would always be moving last and could always Target Lock your desired target. 

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I had my first experiance with Dead Eye last night.  Dead Eye is a situational card and one of it's best uses is on a Homeing Missile.  For example, the Green Squadron A-wing has a pilot skill of three and few ships will move before it during the move phase.  Having a major target to shoot at like a Fel or Vader is slim.  Now if you use Dead Eye with a Homing Missile, you can pick your target after the more desirable targets have moved into your range, shoot the missile and still have a Focus to change some of the dice to hits.

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Picasso said:

I had my first experiance with Dead Eye last night.  Dead Eye is a situational card and one of it's best uses is on a Homeing Missile.  For example, the Green Squadron A-wing has a pilot skill of three and few ships will move before it during the move phase.  Having a major target to shoot at like a Fel or Vader is slim.  Now if you use Dead Eye with a Homing Missile, you can pick your target after the more desirable targets have moved into your range, shoot the missile and still have a Focus to change some of the dice to hits.

 

nice. i ike this. its just that its one use at full power then not so good.

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The_Brown_Bomber said:

Picasso said:

 

I had my first experiance with Dead Eye last night.  Dead Eye is a situational card and one of it's best uses is on a Homeing Missile.  For example, the Green Squadron A-wing has a pilot skill of three and few ships will move before it during the move phase.  Having a major target to shoot at like a Fel or Vader is slim.  Now if you use Dead Eye with a Homing Missile, you can pick your target after the more desirable targets have moved into your range, shoot the missile and still have a Focus to change some of the dice to hits.

 

 

 

nice. i ike this. its just that its one use at full power then not so good.

That's true, but it's not the only perspective. (You will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.)

Instead of an upgrade that only sticks around for one use, think of it as part of a package--for instance, the Homing Missile + Deadeye combo Picasso mentioned--that costs a bit more than other missiles, but with much more flexible targeting. That package is also the most reliable way to bring a lot of missiles and still land hits on your opponent's highly skilled pilots.

You may or may not feel that the package is worth the cost, of course, but it might be a more helpful way to think about the question.

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Vorpal is right.  The way I use my A-wings is the same as a striker class in D&D.  They get into combat quick, make a devastating attack, and then just annoy and hope to survive.  I've been using Two Green squad A-wings with different combos of X-wings to attack.  I let the A-wings shoot missiles at the "most dangerous to X-wing" targets and then let the X-wings dogfight the remaining forces.  

Example:

Against a seven TIE build I'll use the missiles to shoot down Howler Runner and a TIE that has yet to shoot or a TIE with no focus upgrade.  More often than not I drop two ships.  Now it is five on four with two X-wings yet to shoot.  If those X-wings combine their shooting at the same TIE I should get one more.  Now it is four on four or, three to four because I've lost a ship.  Either way this is a favorable position to be in.  In my orders phase the A-wings can move and boost to get out of any attack arc.  The X-wings can stay in the fight and drop another TIE.  Yes the X-wings will take damage I might even get one shot down but on the next turn I'll have two ships back in the fight and chances are they will be shooting into the back of a TIE at range one.

 

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Deadeye.  Unfortunitily the one pilot that I would love to take this medal for is Garvin, but it is not allowed.  Deadeye is really just an anwser to Expert Handling.  If you have a friend that likes to play Expert Handlings on his ships, put in some Deadeyes to screw him over.  Otherwise, for the 1 point cost I would rather take an R2 or R5 astromech droid.

As for your concerns for large ship in the expansion 2, there is an already existing easy answer, the Ion Cannon Turreted Y-wing.  Play tight to your own board edge and when his big ship gets close you keep it ion cannoned.  Just remember that you will need 2 tokens on a large ship to affect it.  By the time you cut through the large ship's shields, it will float of the board edge to your opponents dismay.

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CPTMcMurphy said:

Deadeye.  Unfortunitily the one pilot that I would love to take this medal for is Garvin, but it is not allowed.  Deadeye is really just an anwser to Expert Handling.  If you have a friend that likes to play Expert Handlings on his ships, put in some Deadeyes to screw him over.  Otherwise, for the 1 point cost I would rather take an R2 or R5 astromech droid.

As for your concerns for large ship in the expansion 2, there is an already existing easy answer, the Ion Cannon Turreted Y-wing.  Play tight to your own board edge and when his big ship gets close you keep it ion cannoned.  Just remember that you will need 2 tokens on a large ship to affect it.  By the time you cut through the large ship's shields, it will float of the board edge to your opponents dismay.

I feel like I've just talked about this: Deadeye is a way to make your targeting more flexible. Under normal circumstances, a ship with a missile or torpedo has to gain a Target Lock against a ship you want to shoot, and then it can fire the missile only at that ship. 

Those requirements have several important consequences. It means you're telling your opponent which ship you want to target with your missile, and it also means that the ship you want to target has to be in range at the end of your missile-toting ship's maneuver phase. Neither of those is a problem at all if your missile is equipped on a ship that moves last--but as your Pilot Skill drops both issues become more critical. (That is, a ship with relatively low PS is at a serious disadvantage when firing on a ship that moves later and takes its action later.)

Deadeye fixes both issues. Using Focus to fire a missile or torpedo instead of Target Lock means you don't disclose your intended target--and, indeed, don't have to choose one--until your ship activates during the combat phase. That means that your opponent has to play conservatively with all of his ships or risk handing you an easy kill. Deadeye also means that you can fire on any ship that's in range during the combat phase, meaning that you can more easily target more ships--and that when you make your targeting decision, you always do so at the point of maximum information about your opponent's position and actions.

***

And I've heard lots of people propose Y-wings hugging the edge of the board as a solution to Large ships, and I'm deeply skeptical. Both ships have more powerful attacks than the Y-wing, and both have ways to fire from arcs other than the ship's primary firing arc--meaning there's no reason you should expect a Large ship to fly straight toward the edge of the board in order to engage it.

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I played a Rebel on Rebel game.  I had a Falcon (Lando) and an X-wing.  I went up against a two Y-wings and Wedge.  I smoked those Y-wings.  It didn't matter what my opponent did The Falcon rocked those Y-wings and he hugged that board edge all he could.  Also I should note I rolled freakishly well against his Wedge and dropped it in the first round of shooting.

 

@Murphy,

DO NOT underestimate DEAD EYE on an A-wing.

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I understand that is nice to have a all purpose focus that you could use for anything.  Especial nice when you can use it as a focus if you roll a lot of focus or a target lock when needed for a missile or proton torpedo.  As for your oppenient knowing which ship you will be shooting at, it makes little difference since a decent oppenent is going to play defensive if he thinks he is in your fire arc.

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CPTMcMurphy said:

I understand that is nice to have a all purpose focus that you could use for anything.  Especial nice when you can use it as a focus if you roll a lot of focus or a target lock when needed for a missile or proton torpedo.  As for your oppenient knowing which ship you will be shooting at, it makes little difference since a decent oppenent is going to play defensive if he thinks he is in your fire arc.

You don't see an advantage in forcing your opponent's entire side to play defensively, as opposed to only the ship you're going to be shooting at?

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Vorpal Sword said:

 

CPTMcMurphy said:

 

I understand that is nice to have a all purpose focus that you could use for anything.  Especial nice when you can use it as a focus if you roll a lot of focus or a target lock when needed for a missile or proton torpedo.  As for your oppenient knowing which ship you will be shooting at, it makes little difference since a decent oppenent is going to play defensive if he thinks he is in your fire arc.

 

You don't see an advantage in forcing your opponent's entire side to play defensively, as opposed to only the ship you're going to be shooting at?

 

 

 

 

because with the exception of assault missiles, the other missiles are more of a meh, if it hits ok, if it doesnt well im not surprised either. more than half the time, a normal primary weapon attack with target lock or focus is already comparable or way better than just the missile alone without any setup, and deadeye doesnt help with the setup at all since focus tokens only stay with you until the end of the turn, and you will need to target lock him anyway. put it this way: suppose you have one whole bunch of stuff and Howlrunner, you know for sure Howlrunner is goning to eat the missile anyway instead of random Academy TIE #3, and if you have one small bunch of elite stuff, it doesnt matter if Fel or Turr or Wedge or whoever is goina to eat the missile, you will still go ahead as planned anyway and do a simple exchange with him.

 

and as for the big ship discussion, the Firespray has genuine problems hitting stuff near the corners of the board, if that is what you are looking for. if you go to my practice run thread, you can see how dangerously close i came to the token at the corner of the board. if my Firespray were to get ionized or blocked by some random Academy TIE, it really is going to be in trouble

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Duraham said:

Vorpal Sword said:

 

CPTMcMurphy said:

 

I understand that is nice to have a all purpose focus that you could use for anything.  Especial nice when you can use it as a focus if you roll a lot of focus or a target lock when needed for a missile or proton torpedo.  As for your oppenient knowing which ship you will be shooting at, it makes little difference since a decent oppenent is going to play defensive if he thinks he is in your fire arc.

 

You don't see an advantage in forcing your opponent's entire side to play defensively, as opposed to only the ship you're going to be shooting at?

 

 

 

 

because with the exception of assault missiles, the other missiles are more of a meh, if it hits ok, if it doesnt well im not surprised either. more than half the time, a normal primary weapon attack with target lock or focus is already comparable or way better than just the missile alone without any setup, and deadeye doesnt help with the setup at all since focus tokens only stay with you until the end of the turn, and you will need to target lock him anyway. put it this way: suppose you have one whole bunch of stuff and Howlrunner, you know for sure Howlrunner is goning to eat the missile anyway instead of random Academy TIE #3, and if you have one small bunch of elite stuff, it doesnt matter if Fel or Turr or Wedge or whoever is goina to eat the missile, you will still go ahead as planned anyway and do a simple exchange with him.

 

I find what you've said to be true for X-Wings, but not so much for Y-Wings, A-Wings or TIE Advanced as they only have a base Attack of 2. 

Deadeye gives you flexibility in target selection. If the target is still alive after the first ship fires on it, you have the option of attacking it with a missle. Otherwise, you'd either have to TL it and possibly waste that action if the first ship destroyed the target, or just Focus to hedge your bets and fire on the target with your primary if it survived the attack from your first ship. Further flexibility is gained because taking Focus is a common Action most folks perform anyway. 

Now, maybe you don't value that flexibility, or maybe you don't feel it's worth a point, but there is a use for it and for some, that flexibility is definitely worth the one throwaway point that might have been spent on Determination or trying to get initiative instead. 

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Cid_MCDP said:

 

Duraham said:

 

Vorpal Sword said:

 

CPTMcMurphy said:

 

I understand that is nice to have a all purpose focus that you could use for anything.  Especial nice when you can use it as a focus if you roll a lot of focus or a target lock when needed for a missile or proton torpedo.  As for your oppenient knowing which ship you will be shooting at, it makes little difference since a decent oppenent is going to play defensive if he thinks he is in your fire arc.

 

You don't see an advantage in forcing your opponent's entire side to play defensively, as opposed to only the ship you're going to be shooting at?

 

 

 

 

because with the exception of assault missiles, the other missiles are more of a meh, if it hits ok, if it doesnt well im not surprised either. more than half the time, a normal primary weapon attack with target lock or focus is already comparable or way better than just the missile alone without any setup, and deadeye doesnt help with the setup at all since focus tokens only stay with you until the end of the turn, and you will need to target lock him anyway. put it this way: suppose you have one whole bunch of stuff and Howlrunner, you know for sure Howlrunner is goning to eat the missile anyway instead of random Academy TIE #3, and if you have one small bunch of elite stuff, it doesnt matter if Fel or Turr or Wedge or whoever is goina to eat the missile, you will still go ahead as planned anyway and do a simple exchange with him.

 

 

 

I find what you've said to be true for X-Wings, but not so much for Y-Wings, A-Wings or TIE Advanced as they only have a base Attack of 2. 

Deadeye gives you flexibility in target selection. If the target is still alive after the first ship fires on it, you have the option of attacking it with a missle. Otherwise, you'd either have to TL it and possibly waste that action if the first ship destroyed the target, or just Focus to hedge your bets and fire on the target with your primary if it survived the attack from your first ship. Further flexibility is gained because taking Focus is a common Action most folks perform anyway. 

Now, maybe you don't value that flexibility, or maybe you don't feel it's worth a point, but there is a use for it and for some, that flexibility is definitely worth the one throwaway point that might have been spent on Determination or trying to get initiative instead. 

 

 

 

Ywings cant use deadeye so it's a bit of a moot point, and while i agree with the Awing, for the TIE advanced I do not really agree as you will, in theory, be going up against rebel ships which generally have lower agility values, so it balances out in the end.

 

and why do you still have missiles/torps on you for such a long time that you would need to factor in that 2nd point you made? Unless you are talking about your 2nd set of missiles/torps, which is only relevant on the Firespray and Ywing (which, again, cannot be equipped with deadeye anyway). With perhaps the exception of Assault missiles, I do not see any reason to hold onto the missiles/torps for such a long time that you have to consider using them in that weird scenario you mentioned. you just throw them out on the very first pass and hope it connects and deals some damage, no? Arent you afraid of your ship going down with the missiles/torps still attached and unused? even more so with wave 2, with how attacks are getting so much more fierce in comparison, and it's not like you could really benefit from some of the defensive upgrades like PTL or elusiveness either due to deadeye eating up the slot

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Duraham said:

Cid_MCDP said:

 

Duraham said:

 

Vorpal Sword said:

 

CPTMcMurphy said:

 

I understand that is nice to have a all purpose focus that you could use for anything.  Especial nice when you can use it as a focus if you roll a lot of focus or a target lock when needed for a missile or proton torpedo.  As for your oppenient knowing which ship you will be shooting at, it makes little difference since a decent oppenent is going to play defensive if he thinks he is in your fire arc.

 

You don't see an advantage in forcing your opponent's entire side to play defensively, as opposed to only the ship you're going to be shooting at?

 

 

 

 

because with the exception of assault missiles, the other missiles are more of a meh, if it hits ok, if it doesnt well im not surprised either. more than half the time, a normal primary weapon attack with target lock or focus is already comparable or way better than just the missile alone without any setup, and deadeye doesnt help with the setup at all since focus tokens only stay with you until the end of the turn, and you will need to target lock him anyway. put it this way: suppose you have one whole bunch of stuff and Howlrunner, you know for sure Howlrunner is goning to eat the missile anyway instead of random Academy TIE #3, and if you have one small bunch of elite stuff, it doesnt matter if Fel or Turr or Wedge or whoever is goina to eat the missile, you will still go ahead as planned anyway and do a simple exchange with him.

 

 

 

I find what you've said to be true for X-Wings, but not so much for Y-Wings, A-Wings or TIE Advanced as they only have a base Attack of 2. 

Deadeye gives you flexibility in target selection. If the target is still alive after the first ship fires on it, you have the option of attacking it with a missle. Otherwise, you'd either have to TL it and possibly waste that action if the first ship destroyed the target, or just Focus to hedge your bets and fire on the target with your primary if it survived the attack from your first ship. Further flexibility is gained because taking Focus is a common Action most folks perform anyway. 

Now, maybe you don't value that flexibility, or maybe you don't feel it's worth a point, but there is a use for it and for some, that flexibility is definitely worth the one throwaway point that might have been spent on Determination or trying to get initiative instead. 

 

 

 

Ywings cant use deadeye so it's a bit of a moot point, and while i agree with the Awing, for the TIE advanced I do not really agree as you will, in theory, be going up against rebel ships which generally have lower agility values, so it balances out in the end.

 

and why do you still have missiles/torps on you for such a long time that you would need to factor in that 2nd point you made? Unless you are talking about your 2nd set of missiles/torps, which is only relevant on the Firespray and Ywing (which, again, cannot be equipped with deadeye anyway). With perhaps the exception of Assault missiles, I do not see any reason to hold onto the missiles/torps for such a long time that you have to consider using them in that weird scenario you mentioned. you just throw them out on the very first pass and hope it connects and deals some damage, no? Arent you afraid of your ship going down with the missiles/torps still attached and unused? even more so with wave 2, with how attacks are getting so much more fierce in comparison, and it's not like you could really benefit from some of the defensive upgrades like PTL or elusiveness either due to deadeye eating up the slot

 

Lols, my bad on the Y-Wing. Added that in on during a re-read before I posted and my mind went- "Y-Wings are attack 2 as well! Duh!" That's what I get for posting so late at night. 

When I play Rebels, I do a 4-ship, split deployment kind of setup and I don't just scream forward at 4 towards that TIE pile, so a lot of times, no- there's generally no big initial pass in my games. I usually pick up my first TLs from a flank and usually outside of my arc as well.  

I don't really see why the Advanced is different than the A-Wing in what you mentioned above just because Rebel ships have lower agility though. Can you elaborate on that? 

I guess what I'm saying is Deadeye only costs a point and it triggers from an Action you're probably already declaring anyway. Admittedly, people shouldn't view it as some big deal, game-changing upgrade, but like many of the upgrades that aren't just flat out no-brainer, always-on options, I can see where it'd be useful for its cost. It's not a must-have, and I wouldn't get into a mindset where I'm going, "Oh, I've taken homing missiles on my Green Squadron A-Wing- MUST TAKE DEADEYE", but if I had a point left to spend and was reading back through my list, I'd throw it on there, sure. 

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Duraham said:

Vorpal Sword said:

 

CPTMcMurphy said:

 

I understand that is nice to have a all purpose focus that you could use for anything.  Especial nice when you can use it as a focus if you roll a lot of focus or a target lock when needed for a missile or proton torpedo.  As for your oppenient knowing which ship you will be shooting at, it makes little difference since a decent oppenent is going to play defensive if he thinks he is in your fire arc.

 

You don't see an advantage in forcing your opponent's entire side to play defensively, as opposed to only the ship you're going to be shooting at?

 

because with the exception of assault missiles, the other missiles are more of a meh, if it hits ok, if it doesnt well im not surprised either. more than half the time, a normal primary weapon attack with target lock or focus is already comparable or way better than just the missile alone without any setup, and deadeye doesnt help with the setup at all since focus tokens only stay with you until the end of the turn, and you will need to target lock him anyway.

I agree with you, and have written about the use and mis-use of missiles and torpedoes fairly extensively. But Homing Missiles change the equation, since they go out with no setup.

In fact I'll go further than Cid: I think if you have Homing Missiles on a low-skill pilot (i.e., the Green Squadron Pilot) and you can give them Deadeye, you're making a mistake if you don't. With any other combo--like Wedge in the thread title--it's definitely more of a "better than Determination" sort of upgrade, but on those pilots with that missile I think it's the best point you could spend by a long shot. No pun intended.

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It's not about Dead Eye. It's about the requirements to fire a torp or a missile. You need a target lock.  Now pilots with a high number skill have a great chance of doing this. However a Green squadron with a pilot skill of three might struggle with this because when he first moves there is the potential for him to move and have no one to target lock.  Dead eye removes that by needing a focus not a target lock.  So unless you believe that missiles are completely useless and you don't need them, the case for dead eye IS the green squad a-wing. Is it a must? NO.  Does it help. YES.  Would I rather have PTL and use the A-wings amazing maneuverability to line up the shot later?  YES! 

All I'm saying is the card is valid. 

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if you are playing the standard Imperials vs Rebels, because Rebels have a lower agility value in general, your 2 attack dice is still rather effective, than compared against the higher agility value that imperial ships have. Hence, the missiles tend to benefit the Awing more than the TIEadv.

 

anyway, if you are running Dutch Vander or Lando or SquadLeader in your team, all the more i feel you do not really need deadeye, since all the arguments for deadeye is already covered by these 3 stuff. And arguments about the targetlock vs focus tend to boil down to having a higher PS, and if that is the case, veteran instincts might be more applicable since it sticks with you the entire time, and not just for that disposable missile salvo

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Just thought I'd throw in my thoughts.

First, I think Deadeye has a place, though as Duraham just mentioned there are other ways around the "I can't get a lock on my target, yet" problem. I'd also agree that Green Squadron A-wings seem to be made for this card (imagine that; they come in the same expansion pack!).

One neat way to use Deadeye is with Garven Dreis. Your Green Squadron Pilot moves forward and takes evade, then Garven moves right up behind him and performs a Focus action. After Garven's shot he passes his Focus token to the Green Squadron Pilot who then unleashes with his missile. I know you've probably all thought of that, but I didn't see it written down yet.

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Duraham said:

if you are playing the standard Imperials vs Rebels, because Rebels have a lower agility value in general, your 2 attack dice is still rather effective, than compared against the higher agility value that imperial ships have. Hence, the missiles tend to benefit the Awing more than the TIEadv.[/quote]

Oh, I see. That's more a comment in regard to missles versus primary weapons though than Deadeye in particular though, isn't it? 

 

[quote]anyway, if you are running Dutch Vander or Lando or SquadLeader in your team, all the more i feel you do not really need deadeye, since all the arguments for deadeye is already covered by these 3 stuff. And arguments about the targetlock vs focus tend to boil down to having a higher PS, and if that is the case, veteran instincts might be more applicable since it sticks with you the entire time, and not just for that disposable missile salvo

Wellll, kinda. I think Deadeye still does afford you some flexibility even in those situations. The Lando thing in my mind actually makes it even better as you could do a 2nd Focus for your Free Action. 

Again, I'm not 100% in love with Deadeye as an auto-include, take-it-or-lose kind of upgrade, and I hope all this isn't coming off that way, I'm just saying that there are some situations where it'd be a nice option to have available, especially on a low PR pilot, and as it only costs a point and triggers from a Focus, you're not really giving up much to get it. Like Picasso said, it's more about overcoming the requirement of firing the missile and the incurred repurcussions from the moving and firing sequences than anything else. 

If you think missiles are by and large, pointless in their application or not worth their points, then Deadeye isn't likely to convert you into a believer. However, if you do use them and find yourself limited at times by acquiring the TL and still having the target in your arc when it's time to fire the missiles/ torps, then Deadeye probably is worth your while as an upgrade. 

 

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