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Kennon

2 Champs and a Chump- Episodes 99

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Episode 99- Cast: Will and Zeiler. We respond to a bit of listener mail and finally have a new chapter pack to review! Plus find out a startling revelation about Zeiler's life. Music: Josh Woodward, Celestial Aeon Project, and Manuel Gertrudix

We are up! Sorry for the delay and probably a little awkwardness getting things going. This is the first time that I've had the training wheels off with the new system instead of having Darksbane do it for me. Enjoy! Also, this episode is very much more toward the SFW end of our scale.

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Yes i liked the new formate, was good to hear your thoughs on each cards and their impacts on the game as a whole instead of just the best cards in a given pack.

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Aye, I liked this - it allowed you discuss C cards which tend to be the ones that are more interesting to discuss. Most people can spot an A or an F card (and the reasons why) a mile away, but when you start getting into the nitty gritty of where a middling card might shine and where it might fall flat, I think it's great to listen to.

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Definitely appreciate you guys taking the time to discuss each and every card!

(on a side note, what the heck does "SFW/NSFW" mean anyway?)

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Kennon said:

Did anyone dig or despise the new CP review format?

I liked it, I just wish you would drop the +/-.  Other than that, there were a few points where I would hear the grade you were giving, then think back to the sample cards and be a bit confused.  I remember you were giving some card an A and in my head I was thinking "This is on the same level as Meera?  Really?"

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Interestingly, I appreciate the +/- for the same reason.  We can probably all agree that Meera is, if not the best card in the game, an obvious A+.  2c1c rated Missendi an A-, which I agree with for the reasons stated on the cast.  So what happens if we eliminate the +/-?  Certainly, we can't call Missendi and Meera both A's.  But if you compare Missendi to other cards that get a B, I think there's a plain disparity.  IMO, the +/- are necessary for these subtleties.

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Vaapad hit the nail on the head there. The +/- system allows us to have a little bit of shading within each broad category. Missendei has such efficiency that she's well above the normal curve for characters which already puts her at at least a B status, I'd say but due to the way she fits into Targaryen strategies, it's really quite hard for me to think of a Targaryen deck that would not want a copy of her. Even Dothraki millitary aggro decks likely want some influence now due to Incinerate.

Of course, that said, maybe Meera wasn't the best example of an A card. Considering her impact on games, she probably should be A+.

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Keggy said:

Kennon said:

 

Did anyone dig or despise the new CP review format?

 

 

I liked it, I just wish you would drop the +/-.  Other than that, there were a few points where I would hear the grade you were giving, then think back to the sample cards and be a bit confused.  I remember you were giving some card an A and in my head I was thinking "This is on the same level as Meera?  Really?"

I have to agree with Keggy. I don't think the nuance is necessary if you use the C and D rankings more liberally. The nuance comes out in the discussion.  Just as in school, the letter grading system has been a little corrupted so that you equate B with average, which makes C and D, and even F, mean less.

A cards are clearly game-molding and -shaping; very efficient with great abilities. B cards are good and either efficient or a stellar ability, but perhaps fill a particular niche so that they aren't necessarily auto-includes. C cards are average, decent efficiency or ability, but overall just "meh." D cards are not standard efficiency and/or have a huge weakness, but may be efficient enough or have an ability that fills a niche so that it may be included in some builds. F cards are fails - they don't fill any slot, there might be another card that does what it does better, it's not efficient, etc.

As for Missandei, is she good? Yes. Is she an A, probably not. Sure, the influence is helpful, but because of the cost she won't ever be more than x1 or x2 at most. If she get's out early, that can be a boon, but is it strictly better than Advisor which can be searched T1 and put into play for free and is also not succeptible to ally hate? I don't think so. Advisor also doesn't worry about First Snow, and is more resistant to terminal kill. So the only thing that Missandei has going for it is it's 1 cheaper, which is better for setup, and it's in-house for Targ so you can use it with recursion effects like LDC, Maegi's Promise, and To Be a Dragon. That puts it at a B for me.

Another example: the armies with the Mercenary trait (Bara and Targ) are Ds (or Targ is an F). Martell and GJ are Cs because of their efficiency and keywords. Lanni and Stark are perhaps Bs Lanni because that deadly keyword is just so good with the ability; Stark becuase of the crest synergy with the mil icon and renown.

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Danigral said:

Keggy said:

 

Kennon said:

 

Did anyone dig or despise the new CP review format?

 

 

I liked it, I just wish you would drop the +/-.  Other than that, there were a few points where I would hear the grade you were giving, then think back to the sample cards and be a bit confused.  I remember you were giving some card an A and in my head I was thinking "This is on the same level as Meera?  Really?"

 

 

I have to agree with Keggy. I don't think the nuance is necessary if you use the C and D rankings more liberally. The nuance comes out in the discussion.  Just as in school, the letter grading system has been a little corrupted so that you equate B with average, which makes C and D, and even F, mean less.

A cards are clearly game-molding and -shaping; very efficient with great abilities. B cards are good and either efficient or a stellar ability, but perhaps fill a particular niche so that they aren't necessarily auto-includes. C cards are average, decent efficiency or ability, but overall just "meh." D cards are not standard efficiency and/or have a huge weakness, but may be efficient enough or have an ability that fills a niche so that it may be included in some builds. F cards are fails - they don't fill any slot, there might be another card that does what it does better, it's not efficient, etc.

As for Missandei, is she good? Yes. Is she an A, probably not. Sure, the influence is helpful, but because of the cost she won't ever be more than x1 or x2 at most. If she get's out early, that can be a boon, but is it strictly better than Advisor which can be searched T1 and put into play for free and is also not succeptible to ally hate? I don't think so. Advisor also doesn't worry about First Snow, and is more resistant to terminal kill. So the only thing that Missandei has going for it is it's 1 cheaper, which is better for setup, and it's in-house for Targ so you can use it with recursion effects like LDC, Maegi's Promise, and To Be a Dragon. That puts it at a B for me.

Another example: the armies with the Mercenary trait (Bara and Targ) are Ds (or Targ is an F). Martell and GJ are Cs because of their efficiency and keywords. Lanni and Stark are perhaps Bs Lanni because that deadly keyword is just so good with the ability; Stark becuase of the crest synergy with the mil icon and renown.

i dont think its fair to hold ally trait against missy since most of the time she cannot be discarded.

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dcdennis said:

Danigral said:

I have to agree with Keggy. I don't think the nuance is necessary if you use the C and D rankings more liberally. The nuance comes out in the discussion.  Just as in school, the letter grading system has been a little corrupted so that you equate B with average, which makes C and D, and even F, mean less.

A cards are clearly game-molding and -shaping; very efficient with great abilities. B cards are good and either efficient or a stellar ability, but perhaps fill a particular niche so that they aren't necessarily auto-includes. C cards are average, decent efficiency or ability, but overall just "meh." D cards are not standard efficiency and/or have a huge weakness, but may be efficient enough or have an ability that fills a niche so that it may be included in some builds. F cards are fails - they don't fill any slot, there might be another card that does what it does better, it's not efficient, etc.

As for Missandei, is she good? Yes. Is she an A, probably not. Sure, the influence is helpful, but because of the cost she won't ever be more than x1 or x2 at most. If she get's out early, that can be a boon, but is it strictly better than Advisor which can be searched T1 and put into play for free and is also not succeptible to ally hate? I don't think so. Advisor also doesn't worry about First Snow, and is more resistant to terminal kill. So the only thing that Missandei has going for it is it's 1 cheaper, which is better for setup, and it's in-house for Targ so you can use it with recursion effects like LDC, Maegi's Promise, and To Be a Dragon. That puts it at a B for me.

Another example: the armies with the Mercenary trait (Bara and Targ) are Ds (or Targ is an F). Martell and GJ are Cs because of their efficiency and keywords. Lanni and Stark are perhaps Bs Lanni because that deadly keyword is just so good with the ability; Stark becuase of the crest synergy with the mil icon and renown.

 

 

i dont think its fair to hold ally trait against missy since most of the time she cannot be discarded.

I don't, really. Although the possibility is there for Missandei, while it's not for Advisor, my main point of comparison is that she doesn't have a clear advantage over Advisor. There is a trade-off. Missandei is cheaper and in-house; Advisor is searchable T1 and harder to burn. Is Advisor an A card? Hardly.

I played a game last night where I got her on setup, and she was money, but again, no guarantees you get her early.

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Danigral said:

dcdennis said:

 

Danigral said:

I have to agree with Keggy. I don't think the nuance is necessary if you use the C and D rankings more liberally. The nuance comes out in the discussion.  Just as in school, the letter grading system has been a little corrupted so that you equate B with average, which makes C and D, and even F, mean less.

A cards are clearly game-molding and -shaping; very efficient with great abilities. B cards are good and either efficient or a stellar ability, but perhaps fill a particular niche so that they aren't necessarily auto-includes. C cards are average, decent efficiency or ability, but overall just "meh." D cards are not standard efficiency and/or have a huge weakness, but may be efficient enough or have an ability that fills a niche so that it may be included in some builds. F cards are fails - they don't fill any slot, there might be another card that does what it does better, it's not efficient, etc.

As for Missandei, is she good? Yes. Is she an A, probably not. Sure, the influence is helpful, but because of the cost she won't ever be more than x1 or x2 at most. If she get's out early, that can be a boon, but is it strictly better than Advisor which can be searched T1 and put into play for free and is also not succeptible to ally hate? I don't think so. Advisor also doesn't worry about First Snow, and is more resistant to terminal kill. So the only thing that Missandei has going for it is it's 1 cheaper, which is better for setup, and it's in-house for Targ so you can use it with recursion effects like LDC, Maegi's Promise, and To Be a Dragon. That puts it at a B for me.

Another example: the armies with the Mercenary trait (Bara and Targ) are Ds (or Targ is an F). Martell and GJ are Cs because of their efficiency and keywords. Lanni and Stark are perhaps Bs Lanni because that deadly keyword is just so good with the ability; Stark becuase of the crest synergy with the mil icon and renown.

 

 

i dont think its fair to hold ally trait against missy since most of the time she cannot be discarded.

 

 

I don't, really. Although the possibility is there for Missandei, while it's not for Advisor, my main point of comparison is that she doesn't have a clear advantage over Advisor. There is a trade-off. Missandei is cheaper and in-house; Advisor is searchable T1 and harder to burn. Is Advisor an A card? Hardly.

I played a game last night where I got her on setup, and she was money, but again, no guarantees you get her early.

saying advisor is searchable and free T1 is a bit of an oversimplification seeing as how you have to 'waste' 1/7th of your plots in order to take advantage of that possibility. Missy>Advisor imo, just not by much, and neither I believe to be higher than a B. If I had to grade them I'd probably give Missy a B+ and Advisor a B-.

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dcdennis said:

Danigral said:

 

dcdennis said:

 

Danigral said:

I have to agree with Keggy. I don't think the nuance is necessary if you use the C and D rankings more liberally. The nuance comes out in the discussion.  Just as in school, the letter grading system has been a little corrupted so that you equate B with average, which makes C and D, and even F, mean less.

A cards are clearly game-molding and -shaping; very efficient with great abilities. B cards are good and either efficient or a stellar ability, but perhaps fill a particular niche so that they aren't necessarily auto-includes. C cards are average, decent efficiency or ability, but overall just "meh." D cards are not standard efficiency and/or have a huge weakness, but may be efficient enough or have an ability that fills a niche so that it may be included in some builds. F cards are fails - they don't fill any slot, there might be another card that does what it does better, it's not efficient, etc.

As for Missandei, is she good? Yes. Is she an A, probably not. Sure, the influence is helpful, but because of the cost she won't ever be more than x1 or x2 at most. If she get's out early, that can be a boon, but is it strictly better than Advisor which can be searched T1 and put into play for free and is also not succeptible to ally hate? I don't think so. Advisor also doesn't worry about First Snow, and is more resistant to terminal kill. So the only thing that Missandei has going for it is it's 1 cheaper, which is better for setup, and it's in-house for Targ so you can use it with recursion effects like LDC, Maegi's Promise, and To Be a Dragon. That puts it at a B for me.

Another example: the armies with the Mercenary trait (Bara and Targ) are Ds (or Targ is an F). Martell and GJ are Cs because of their efficiency and keywords. Lanni and Stark are perhaps Bs Lanni because that deadly keyword is just so good with the ability; Stark becuase of the crest synergy with the mil icon and renown.

 

 

i dont think its fair to hold ally trait against missy since most of the time she cannot be discarded.

 

 

I don't, really. Although the possibility is there for Missandei, while it's not for Advisor, my main point of comparison is that she doesn't have a clear advantage over Advisor. There is a trade-off. Missandei is cheaper and in-house; Advisor is searchable T1 and harder to burn. Is Advisor an A card? Hardly.

I played a game last night where I got her on setup, and she was money, but again, no guarantees you get her early.

 

 

saying advisor is searchable and free T1 is a bit of an oversimplification seeing as how you have to 'waste' 1/7th of your plots in order to take advantage of that possibility. Missy>Advisor imo, just not by much, and neither I believe to be higher than a B. If I had to grade them I'd probably give Missy a B+ and Advisor a B-.

~Certainly not as much of an oversimplification as assigning some letter to it. ;P

I still think they are both niche cards. Targ can use the influence, but it's much better to have it early than late. If you think a plot that gives you 3 free gold and a tutor effect as a 'waste' well, I guess we differ there. I'd rather be able to play my Flame-Kissed on turn 1 than draw into Missandei on a critical late-game round when I already have influence locations out and I need better options.

I'm using 1 copy of Missy - I'll start calling her that now :) - in my Targ HoD deck. It's a great fit, but I'm still not sure if she's better than Advisor. And in a maester deck, Advisor is better. In a KotHH deck, she would be better because you have the influence right off the bat. Niche - and imo, "same but different." But at this point we're just hasing out nuances, which goes back to my argument that +/- is arbitrary and ultimately not helpful. It conversations such as ours that assign a card's true value.

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Things im checking off todays to do list.

1) Give a card a nickname

2) assign a card a relative value through semi-meaningful card analysis conversations

3) generally being a productive member of the community.

 

time for a nap.

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Kennon said:

Though of course you wouldn't be having this particular conversation without our use of +/- in the episode…. :P

Heck, even if you went without +/- in the rankings, poeple would probably come on here and say "Eh, I think it's a A-, not an A." :)

Good job, Dennis! Enjoy the nap. Maybe when you're rested you'll come back ready to troll a little. I must admit, I miss that guy a bit.

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Kennon said:

Really? I like productive Dennis.

Don''t get me wrong, Productive Dennis is great. I just have a little nostalgia for those crazy threads. Work is a tad boring right now.

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Crevic said:

Zordren said:

(on a side note, what the heck does "SFW/NSFW" mean anyway?)

 

Safe for Work/ Not Safe for Work

Thanks!

 

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I think Missy is better for mostly the reason that she is easier to stand than Advisor of the Crown.

Long Lances can stand her.  With the Learned crest, Distinct Mastery can stand her.  Maybe you'll want to use her Learned crest for something else(I don't know what though).  To Be a Dragon will stand her.

Her Ally trait and 1 STR really doesn't bother me too much.  Her cost is so low that her ceiling far out weights her floor.  I wouldn't build a deck around her, but the chance she becomes a huge asset just out weighs her potential negatives.

Then there are all the other Targaryen character specifc effects that can be used on her, including Strong Belwas saving her, Maegi's Promise, reducers, etc.

Advisor of the Crown may have more strength and may be easy to get into play early with At the Gates, but honestly, I wouldn't even run him if it weren't in a Maester deck.  Once he is in play, he's worse than any of the 2 influence locations as there are more answers to characters than there are locations.  So, to me, he is only great because he can be acquired by At the Gates. 

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Bomb said:

Maybe you'll want to use her Learned crest for something else(I don't know what though). 

in a dragon deck (which got some solid support in the last cycle), Outwit is huge.

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Bomb said:

 

I think Missy is better for mostly the reason that she is easier to stand than Advisor of the Crown.

Long Lances can stand her.  With the Learned crest, Distinct Mastery can stand her.  Maybe you'll want to use her Learned crest for something else(I don't know what though).  To Be a Dragon will stand her.

Her Ally trait and 1 STR really doesn't bother me too much.  Her cost is so low that her ceiling far out weights her floor.  I wouldn't build a deck around her, but the chance she becomes a huge asset just out weighs her potential negatives.

Then there are all the other Targaryen character specifc effects that can be used on her, including Strong Belwas saving her, Maegi's Promise, reducers, etc.

Advisor of the Crown may have more strength and may be easy to get into play early with At the Gates, but honestly, I wouldn't even run him if it weren't in a Maester deck.  Once he is in play, he's worse than any of the 2 influence locations as there are more answers to characters than there are locations.  So, to me, he is only great because he can be acquired by At the Gates. 

 

 

This is what I was getting at by saying that her plus is that she's in-house. To Be a Dragon is a good combo if you have the cards and inclination to use her influence for something in your hand (FK, Incinderate, or Dragon Thief maybe?) Then again, is she the best target for To Be…, Distinct Mastery, Strong Belwas, etc.? I'd sooner use To Be on my street waif or stealthy dude. Is she, as an influence-providing character (with all that means in terms of weaknesses), worth building in your deck those potential combos when a location can provide the same with more certainty and safety? Sure, those opportunities might arise in a game, and might be good every once in a while, but that's the same with so many other combos. She's a supplemental character, albeit a good one. And she's really good primarily because she's an in-house ally - providing more trait-synergy for incinerate, on-top of the in-built influence.

Bomb said:

 

Advisor of the Crown may have more strength and may be easy to get into play early with At the Gates, but honestly, I wouldn't even run him if it weren't in a Maester deck.  Once he is in play, he's worse than any of the 2 influence locations as there are more answers to characters than there are locations.  So, to me, he is only great because he can be acquired by At the Gates. 

 

 

I've tinkered around with him in other builds, now that I've decided to focus on Targ almost exclusively for the past 6 months. I think this is somewhat a meta-defined bias. What have the two dominant bulids been in joust for Targ for the past year? KotHH and Maesters. In a maester build, he's pretty much an autoinclude to use your FK early and have a target for chains simultaneously. In a KotHH deck, he's unnecessary since you have the influence to start with. Have we really seen any other really viable Targ builds that are that dependant on influence? Not since Targ summer/shadows - which is really more dependant on gold than influence - and at that point we didn't have cards such as Reinforcements, Incinerate, and Long Lances, which demand a lot of influence. In any deck that isn't KotHH - and we may see some in regionals season - Advisor may be useful.

TL;DR - I like Missy; I like Advisor, but for different reasons. Maybe I'll run one of each. The main decision point for which one to run has come down to plot choices more than these two particular characters' merits. So I guess Dennis was right, in a way. If you have room for At the Gates in your plot deck early game, Advisor is worth it; otherwise choose Missy.

Did you hear that Dennis? ;)

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