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scruffymcpants

Question about the Incinerate event card

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Hi all,

So, i've been trying to figure out how and when 'Incinerate' event card for house Targaryen works. From reading through it I'm trying to think if there is a way this card can be nullified, it at all.

The card effect is as follows:

Challenges: Kneel 1 influence to choose a character and name a Trait. Until the end of the phase, that character gets -X STR and is killed if its STR is 0. X is the number of Targaryen characters you control with the named Trait.

This works very well with a Dothraki deck.

So, my take on that is that Incinerate will kill anything that has a duplicate attached to it. This is because even after the duplicate has been removed and satisfied the kill, the character still has -X until the end of that phase and Incinerate states that 'Until the end of the phase, that character gets -X STR and is killed if its STR is 0.'

So even if the duplicate satisfies the kill, the character still has -X until the end of the phase and is killed again.

What are peoples thoughts on this?

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You're both right and wrong. Effects like Incinerate, Threat from the North, & Flame-Kissed do in fact kill the character in such a way that they cannot be effectively saved. The "killed if str is 0" lasting effect means that the character is what we called "terminal" - there is a persistent effect that will kill the character. Saving the character wouldn't serve any purpose, they'd just be killed again. 

However, the rules actually specifically state that you cannot attempt (initiate) to save from a terminal effect unless you would also remove the terminal effect. In the case of burn like Incinerate, that would have to come from an effect like "Rhymes with Meek", "Risen from the Sea" or "Moquorro". 

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thanks for the reply Istaril.

So what i'm reading is that Incinerate will kill anything unless the opponent brings the characters strength back up to 1 or higher?

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scruffymcpants said:

thanks for the reply Istaril.

So what i'm reading is that Incinerate will kill anything unless the opponent brings the characters strength back up to 1 or higher?

Correct. Bear in mind, though that it needs to raise the strength enough to overcome the burn, producing a positive strength after everything is added together, because, even though you can't technically have a negative STR on a character, the additional modifiers below 0 still count into the equation when trying to raise the character's STR

e.g. Let's say you have 8 Dothraki characters on the board, and your opponent swings at you with a 5 STR unique (with or without dupes). You play Incinerate, targeting the character in question and naming Dothraki.

The character gets -8 STR and is at 0 STR for the purposes of the event card, but at a -3 for any STR modifications. In this instance, Moqorro and Risen from the sea are useless, since neither can bring the character's STR back above 0

Not sure about the official standing if you can use Moqorro and 2 Risen from the Sea events to raise him to 1 STR, but alone, neither is sufficient to save the character.

Rhymes with Meek, on the other hand, would save the character, because it specifically says it becomes an attachment and prevents the character's STR from being raised or lowered, thus shutting down the burn most efficiently.

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Moqorro or Risen from the Sea are each insufficient, so neither can be initiated. You get one initiation to save a card and bring it out of its terminal state (constant effects are ok, since they have no initiation, but passive effects are out). This means that with 2 King's Pavillion on the table, Wendamyr's save is a valid one, provided the character is kneeling and the standing can be paid (in one initiation, the character is saved and gets +6 STR). On the other hand, shadow Jaqen cannot be saved with a duplicate, because his return to shadows is a passive effect.

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Keep in mind, too, that he STR must be raised above 0 during the save/cancel step of be action window in which Incinerate was played.  That's why the list of possible saves from burn is so small.  "Any Phase" actions or non-save/cancel responses that raise the character's STR won't cut it.

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Sorry to post on a months-old topic, but I have a question… What about a save action that removes the character from play? Like Viserys or Davos going back into their owners' hands? Would that remove the terminal effect, since removing cards from play also removes negative modifiers?

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Saltwater said:

Sorry to post on a months-old topic, but I have a question… What about a save action that removes the character from play? Like Viserys or Davos going back into their owners' hands? Would that remove the terminal effect, since removing cards from play also removes negative modifiers?

Yes. Most definitely. Anything that saves from and nullifies an effect (can't have STR reduced, gains enough STR to overcome, returns to hand, etc) is valid. And I know those are situational examples, but I'm assuming we're still talking about terminal burn effects, so I went with it.

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Note that the reason a "save and return to hand"-type effect works to save against burn isn't because "when a card leaves play, it removes negative modifiers." It is technically because the resolution of the save effect removes the card from play itseld - and a card that has been removed from play by effect #1 cannot be removed from play a second time be effect #2. Hence, the "killed at 0" (or whatever) doesn't get another chance to kill the card, no matter what its STR is.

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